Super Smash Bros.

Well, I mean, people generally don't go out of their way to footstool each other on the ground, least of all when one has an attacking hitbox active.

You don't need to footstool...it's like a Goombala.

Nikkei: Smash Ultimate sold 5 million total during its first 3 days.

Yea, but, you know.

Nintendoomed.

So um, why are Western-onwed Third Parties unlikely to get in as playable characters? Sometimes it's considered a hard rule a la "Only videogame characters" and "If you an AT, you can't be playable".

Is it because of Japan? Because there are plenty of western I Ps that do well there.

I'm pretty sure the Japan argument only works when you're talking about a franchise that doesn't have a Japanese fanbase (Mortal Kombat comes to mind).

I think it largely comes from a place of “well it hasn’t happened before,” and the perception (regardless of whether it’s fair or not) that Japan is snobbish about Western developers.

It just takes someone to break the seal for the idea to go away though. Third-party characters, and characters with almost no Nintendo presence were both thought impossible at one point, but they’ve both come to pass. At some point, Western-created characters will too.

The "characters with almost no Nintendo presence" have interesting backgrounds though that justify why they're in Super Smash Bros.:

• Bayonetta started out on the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360, but then there was the publishing deal with Nintendo that meant the sequel game was a Nintendo-exclusive.
• Cloud only made a handful of appearances on Nintendo games, but Final Fantasy itself started on the NES, with several games on Nintendo systems.
• Joker has only been in one Nintendo game, but like Final Fantasy, the Megami Tensei games also started on the NES, with several Megami Tensei games on Nintendo systems.

Also, we already have Western-created characters in Super Smash Bros.; King K. Rool is one of them, even though he's still from a Japanese IP. Now, as for when we get a character originating from a Western IP, that's a different story.

I don’t consider your franchise becoming exclusive to Nintendo to be “little to no Nintendo presence.” Like, literally the opposite.

I was specifically referring to Cloud and Joker at the time of their respective announcements.

And everyone who goes “well K. Rool is a Western-created character” is just being pedantic. He’s obviously owned by Nintendo. It doesn’t matter that Rare created him, he’s a Nintendo character, and they’re a Japanese company.

I did mention that King K. Rool still originated from a Japanese IP even if it was Westerners that came up with the character himself. It's important to remember that "Western-created character" and "Originated from a Western IP" are not exactly the same.

Cloud and Joker seem to have been picked to represent their franchise as a whole, franchises that started on Nintendo systems and have many games on Nintendo systems. So while the characters themselves haven't been in many Nintendo games, I don't think their inclusion throws open the doors for practically every video game character.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Dec 20th 2018 at 8:20:59 AM

i dont think cloud was used to represent FF as "a whole", else we'd have a lot more FF stuff in the game

Would have been funny if they gone for his blocky lego head appearance

The distinction is borderline meaningless, and cumbersome to spell out every time it is discussed.

Also, as a matter of fact, Cloud’s logo is specifically Final Fantasy VII, not a general Final Fantasy logo.

Edited by BadWolf21 on Dec 20th 2018 at 10:26:36 AM

What exactly is "borderline meaningless?"

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Dec 20th 2018 at 8:28:28 AM

The only Final Fantasy content in either game is specific to the 7th game, so I don't think that holds water even then.

Except Ifrit's design, because I sure as hell don't remember him looking like that in VII.

Seriously though, why does Ifrit not look VII-ish like the other summons? Did the developers not like his VII design or something?

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Dec 20th 2018 at 8:35:17 AM

The difference between “Japanese character” and “Western-created character in a Japanese IP.”

...Who mentioned "Japanese characters?"

You do know that Nintendo owned 49% of Rare at the time, right?

Besides, regardless of how you want to define things, King K. Rool is a Nintendo character. He is owned by Nintendo. Same for Diddy Kong and Dark Samus.

The third-party characters so far have been entirely Japanese-owned, but that's just a trend; there's no evidence it's an actual rule or even guideline. The trend certainly indicates that foreign characters are less likely, but in on way rules them out.

(Also, didn't Megami Tensei technically start as a series of books?)

A book did serve as an inspiration to the series as a whole, yes. I think the first Megami Tensei game was even based on the book.

Obviously, not every Megami Tensei game that came afterwards was based on that book, save for the whole "demon summoning with technology" bit (and even some of the games don't even have the "technology" part).

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Dec 20th 2018 at 9:00:01 AM

This. This is the point I was making.

Just throwing speculation out there but maybe Ifrit in VII looked a bit too human to be that naked and they went with VIII's since it's more bestial and thus okay to show off skin.

For the record, I consider characters like Diddy Kong and King K. Rool to be "Western characters from Japanese IPs," not "Japanese characters." Which is why I said that Super Smash Bros. does have Western fighters in it; they just don't have fighters that originate from Western IPs yet.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Dec 20th 2018 at 9:06:09 AM

Yes. That is clear. What I am saying is that that distinction is borderline meaningless and cumbersome to conversations about the trend, as evidenced by the fact that we’ve been talking in circles about it.

I don't think the distinction is meaningless or even borderline meaningless, since it does provide a pattern that helps in guessing what characters might be more likely to get in. Obviously the pattern can be broken, but until it does, it can be used to gauge the likeliness of a character getting in assuming the pattern still holds.