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Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

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InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#19402: Mar 15th 2018 at 10:03:37 AM

[up][up]Well, they do have the same gormless pout. With the wig, the likeness is spot-on.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#19403: Mar 15th 2018 at 10:30:54 AM

Gormless Pout is my Staind cover band.

hegelvonaxel Since: Feb, 2018
#19404: Mar 15th 2018 at 3:47:49 PM

Am i only one here who think that Show!Gregor is less hateable than Book!Gregor?

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#19405: Mar 16th 2018 at 11:01:05 AM

No?

He does a lot less evil stuff on screen. Also probably "helps" that with the three different actors playing him, he has less of a concrete presence across seasons (unlike say Joffrey or Ramsay), which makes him less hateable.

Also, I wouldn't discount the fact that the current mountain is seemingly a quite lovable person in real life- which is obviously not uncommon, but it probably helps to make Gregor less hateable that his most memorable actor is the one everyone knows as a big softy.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#19406: Mar 16th 2018 at 12:35:29 PM

[up] The books also regularly supply us with stories about the Mountain being a Complete Monster in the backgrund (raping someone's daughter, smashing someone's teeth for speaking).

Meanwhile in the series he isn't mentioned that often, so most of his impact comes from his few on-screen appearances.

So while "less hateable" might be debatable, Gregor's lacking the looming off-screen presence he has in the books - he might not appear often, but you know he's out there somewehre, doing stuff. Horrible stuff, at that. In the series his presence is mainly affected by his actual on-screen appearances.

edited 16th Mar '18 12:36:41 PM by DrunkenNordmann

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
hegelvonaxel Since: Feb, 2018
#19407: Mar 16th 2018 at 5:00:31 PM

Someone on reddit posted, before fourth season aired, that Book!Gregor is "This guy is awfull, he deserves painfull death" while Show!Gregor is "Who?"

PS. I also think that Book!Rorge is worse than Show!Ramsay.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#19408: Jun 8th 2018 at 12:57:07 PM

Oh shit.

Prequel series confirmed.

Taking place thousands of years before the events of “Game of Thrones,” Goldman’s series chronicles the world’s descent from the golden Age of Heroes into its darkest hour. And only one thing is for sure: from the horrifying secrets of Westeros’ history to the true origin of the white walkers, the mysteries of the East to the Starks of legend–it’s not the story we think we know.

Give me the Bloodstone Emperor NOW!!!

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#19409: Jun 8th 2018 at 12:58:43 PM

So what do you guys think about the supposed leaked S8 scripts? Fake or real? I'd say fake, but after the Scripts for Season 7 turned out to be genuine I'm not so sure....

edited 8th Jun '18 12:58:58 PM by Forenperser

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#19410: Jun 8th 2018 at 1:13:24 PM

There's a lot of scripts leaks but they're fake

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
Kostya from Everywhere Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#19411: Jun 8th 2018 at 1:24:37 PM

@Prequel series: I'm happy. That's probably the most interesting thing they could have done. I was expecting something like Robert's Rebellion, Aegon's Conquest, or the Dance of Dragons. While those would have been nice we already have a lot of detail about them so they wouldn't be overly exciting. This is mostly uncharted territory.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#19412: Jun 8th 2018 at 1:43:26 PM

[up][up][up] I just kept avoiding all GoT-related websites like the plague because I don't want to read any bloody leaks. Period.

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
MajorTom Eye'm the cutest! Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
#19413: Jun 23rd 2018 at 1:04:00 PM

Jon Snow x Ygritte is now officially Hilarious in Hindsight.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
MaxwellDaring MY EYES from Interzone Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
MY EYES
#19414: Jun 23rd 2018 at 1:30:37 PM

This makes me unrealistically happy.

INSIDE OF YOU THERE ARE TWO WOLVES. BOTH OF THEM WANT YOU TO SHOOT ELVIS.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#19415: Jul 10th 2018 at 1:41:06 PM

New spin off tv show also in the works called Empire of Ash. It's the lead up to the Downfall of Valyria.

Watchers on the Wall is officially reporting on it.

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-prequel-rumors-greenlit-pilot-may-be-filming-sooner-than-expected-a-valyria-set-prequel-could-be-coming-too/

The gist of it is this: the multi-season series, Empire of Ash, would be set during the decline and fall of Valyria, recording “the social, economic, and political crises which tore apart the empire from within”, and the Doom. It would include expected elements such as dragons and House Targaryen, a minor family of dragon-lords at the time.

The dragon-lords wouldn’t be the only focus, however: supposedly, much of the prequel takes place on a major melting pot port city in the continent of Sothoryos, which in this series would be relatively analogous to Roman North Africa. Consequently, diversity is more emphasized than in Game of Thrones—not only of race, but of gender and sexual orientation as well. Two main characters are described in this mold: a “platinum blonde black female dragon-rider”, daughter of a white Valyrian father and a foreigner mother, who faces discrimination because of this; and a self-made former slave, described as “a deceptively matronly-looking Asian woman in her 50s, that’s now not only one of the richest citizens but also a major political leader and government intrigue-player.”

The Dragon Demands is the one the news come from.

Big Picture:

The title of this prequel series is "Empire of Ash".

It is about the events leading up to the Doom of Valyria: the massive volcanic super-eruption which destroyed the Valyrian Freehold in a single day.

It is also the story of the origins of House Targaryen, a minor family of dragon-lords in old Valyria who rose to prominence by fleeing to Westeros just before the Doom - leaving them with the world's only living dragons. This story centers on the decline and fall of Valyria, a colonial empire which ruled half of the known world at its height. It reveals the social, economic, and political crises which tore apart the empire from within - these themes rang eerily familiar to me in today's climate.

Scope:

"Empire of Ash" seems to be planned out to last five seasons or more. It's not just a short one-shot special or something. It's another full TV series. Tone:

Similar to Game of Thrones and the A Song of Ice and Fire novels. Different political factions intriguing against each other - with a larger magical threat looming for the endgame. Themes:

George R.R. Martin has said that Valyria was "like the Roman Republic, with dragons". A major focus of this prequel is on diversity, as it deals with issues of immigration, naturalization, and cultural identity - all within a multi-ethnic democratic state. The central conflict that kicks off the series is, "what does it mean to be 'Valyrian', and who gets to share in that power and prestige?"

According to its summary documents, this story addresses themes of a free republic in decline, the fallout of military and cultural imperialism, colonialism, immigration, and racial diversity (sound familiar?) Did I mention there are dragons? Lots of dragons. Hundreds of dragons.

Diversity:

Multiple members of the primary cast are to be played by actors of color. As a result, something like a third to a half of the cast isn't white. It explicitly instructs this in their casting sheets.

This also extends to diversity of female and LGBT characters, several of whom are also core cast members.

Something like a third to a half of this prequel series is actually set in Sothoryos, George R.R. Martin's fantasy version of Africa, mentioned in ASOIAF and The World of Ice and Fire. Sothoryos and Valyria are the two big axises around which the show revolves: the tension between the capital city and its provinces.

The capital of Sothoryos, one of the major settings of the action, is conceptually supposed to be "Roman North Africa", a mix of Carthage and Constantinople, a major port city with a multi-racial society. Looking at a map, I would guess pre-Doom Zamettar.

Thus, most of the characters there are "non-white": according to the casting calls, they're looking for variously African, Asian, other groups (it's a very mixed, "melting pot" port city).

One of the main characters, a POV core cast member, is a platinum blonde black female dragon-rider - one of her parents was a white Valyrian, the other a foreigner, leading some to deny that she's a "real" Valyrian. One of the other main characters is a self-made former slave, a deceptively matronly-looking Asian woman in her 50s, that's now not only one of the richest citizens but also a major political leader and government intrigue-player.

House Targaryen:

Concept art already exists for three rival political factions in Valyria: the Sphinxes, the Young Dragons, and the Free Holders. The Targaryens may be a minor family of the Young Dragons, but I cannot confirm. I only got a brief and blurry look at artwork of their war banner. It's a dragon of some kind. Aenar Targaryen and his daughter Daenys the Dreamer are also characters but I don't know if they're introduced in Season 1.

World-Building:

This prequel puts a massive amount of work into worldbuilding, fleshing out the lost Atantis-like civilization that was Valyria.

I'm told religious scholar Reza Aslan, author of Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth, was brought in - whether as a consultant or a writer I can't say but I hope it was to impact the religion-building of the world.

Gender and Sexuality have also received a lot of worldbuilding. Apparently, in this series Valyrians don't take issue with homosexuality - one of the leaders of the conservative "Sphinx" faction is publicly in a homosexual relationship and no one thinks it's particularly unusual. Series Bibles:

While I don't have access to these documents on an ongoing basis, I was shown two documents amounting to extensive series bibles. Yes, "Bibles" plural.

The first of these is the Season 1 script outline. 10 episodes. Over 200 pages in length. These are not finished teleplays with dialogue, but they are more than just generalized notes. It's basically a scene-by-scene guide to the entire season! But that isn't even "the" series bible, that's the Season 1 outline (the "script bible"). As for the series bible...well, we tend to use the term "jaw dropping" too casually. But when I glimpsed this document mine did: it looked like a second volume of The World of Ice and Fire. I mean that literally, like you could walk into a book store and find it ready for sale on the shelf. The entire thing is fully illustrated. Professional quality illustrations. Some of them were maps I recognized from wikis, others, particularly the character and location artwork...it looks like they must have secretly hired major artists who did the World book and annual ASOIAF calendars to do new concept art without telling the public about it.

Apparently "about 100 copies currently exist", which, if true, makes it even more insane that this was kept secret for so long.

There was even a new map in it of pre-Doom Valyria, in the style of The Lands of Ice and Fire. I don't know if they photoshopped it from the original or outright hired the original "Lands" artist, but it looked good enough I couldn't tell the difference. A lot of work and money went into this.

And of course, you know, I'm one of the people who writes up encyclopedia info for the wiki here. So when I saw this secret, unreleased internal series bible...not as an abstraction or "ideas we tossed around the office" but a true "Series Bible" of the kind we dream of...just wow. Stunned. My first reaction? "It looks like these people locked themselves in a room for 2 years with a copy of The World of Ice and Fire, and wrote a TV show based on it." Heavily researched, but also including stuff never in the books. It's very clear world-building matters to them, as does staying true to Martin's work. And if the Reza Aslan rumor is true, they clearly care about history as well.

Development Process:

According to the source I spoke with, while several potential prequels are in development at HBO, the two front-runner projects are Jane Goldman's "The Long Night" and Max Borenstein's "Empire of Ash". That isn't to say that HBO will discard the other pitches. They're starting to see this as their Star Wars scale franchise and are planning it out in advance. Consider how many years in advance we heard about anthology movies like "Rogue One" or "Solo", even before the Sequel Trilogy movies were released. Moreover, based on what I've heard, Borenstein's prequel is surprisingly close to beginning production. Apparently, veteran Game of Thrones director Miguel Sapochnik is attached to make the pilot episode for Empire of Ashes (consider his experience filming the extensive dragon battle sequences during the Second Siege of Meereen in Season 6). I'm unsure why or how a prequel could get this far in development without HBO spreading any news about it, or why the Long Night prequel was announced first - especially when that storyline, set so long before the events of ASOIAF has garnered only limited enthusiasm from fans: consider the reaction video that Elio & Linda made at Westeros.org last month - I share a lot of their concerns.

So if these are the two front runners, why did they only announce the Long Night? While giving no word about the only other prequel project that is actually very deep into production? I can only assume it is some sort of legal or budgetary wrangling: based on what I saw of "Empire of Ash", the only reason they haven't gone forward with a pilot order yet seems to be ink on paper, they already have a director in place and everything.

My takeaway:

By the Smith's hammer...the series bible exists. It is astonishing. I hope you all get to see it someday. It's our Holy Grail - our Ark of the Covenant, containing the holy texts of knowledge handed down from the Creator. They know what they're doing. I look forward to this prequel getting a full pickup.

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#19416: Aug 25th 2018 at 1:32:22 PM

Game of Thrones is going to miss the Emmys for next year and won't air bulks of its episodes until after 31st so we're looking at at late May-July release.

Also we're heading towards a controversial ending:

Now that we’re done talking about when the series might end, let’s talk about how it could end.

“I thought it was really brave,” Bauer said of the ending of the series. “I thought it’d be interesting to see. It’s very true to what ‘Thrones’ is, and knowing how it ends, I don’t actually see how it could end any other way.

“I think the whole series has aimed toward this. I obviously can’t say what it is. I think there will be divisions because people have grown to identify and like and hate various characters, so everybody has their version of how they want it to end based on those things, but looking at it objectively, I think the way it ends is the way it must end, so I’m just going to leave it at that.”

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
RoninMacbeth Since: Mar, 2017 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#19417: Oct 1st 2018 at 8:52:03 PM

I'm a little conflicted about the "Age of Heroes" prequel, to be honest. It takes place in the Westerosverse's Time of Myths, right? Which means it's either going to be a Sword and Sorcery show with more explicit fantasy elements or it's going to be a Low Fantasy show set in the Age of Heroes. For the former, I admit that I'm not terribly interested in ASOIAF's fantasy elements, and as for the latter, I'm not sure how the setting change would help that plot.

On the other hand, the showrunner is the same person who helped bring us X-Men First Class and Kingsmen: The Secret Service, so I'm mostly optimistic. Also, anything that pries Westeros away from D&D is fine by me.

I'd show you my signature, but then I'd have to kill you. Oh wait...Sorry.
TheDragonDemands I am Jack's Smirking Revenge from Now Since: Oct, 2014
I am Jack's Smirking Revenge
#19418: Oct 30th 2018 at 10:17:36 AM

I've been making faction profile videos for Empire of Ash, expanding on the original leak a little but also giving it more context from the books, etc.

Here's the playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXALkBdN2IE&list=PLxojMpX5XGoXUCcgGxUnR2IXdAeQ_6DOP

1 - The Young Dragons

2 - The Sphinxes

3 - The Free Holders

About 4 hours of content.

Edited by TheDragonDemands on Oct 30th 2018 at 10:17:58 AM

TheDragonDemands I am Jack's Smirking Revenge from Now Since: Oct, 2014
I am Jack's Smirking Revenge
#19419: Nov 9th 2018 at 8:23:15 AM

Hey...can I make a TV Tropes article for "Empire of Ash"?

I mean, the leak isn't officially confirmed - that's why it's a "leak" - and even if true it's basically vaporware so far...but TV Tropes does have articles on vaporware or even fanfic.

The whole thing is about as canon as fanfic until proven otherwise, I admit. But TV Tropes can have articles on that.

I've put out pretty extensive info in the leak already: combination of the main leak via Game of Thrones Wiki, then the FOUR HOURS of video content I put out on You Tube explaining it in more context.

I'm telling ya - this is the prequel to get excited about. Long Night will be a disaster. The Empire of Ash Series Bible looks like a second volume of the World of Ice and Fire! They put a lot of thought into this.

Basically it's "dueling projects" with Long Night. They were the only two out of the five prequel projects that were ever developed in earnest (the only two with full writing staffs, the others are just pitches). And Empire of Ash was actually the FIRST one that was pitched! "Long Night" is the prequel aiming at hooking back casual fans of the TV series - the later TV seasons that were just hype, and it sounds like a rehash of that to cash in on the hype train. In contrast, "Empire of Ash" really seems like it was made by book fans, to win back the book fan crowd.

Edited by TheDragonDemands on Nov 9th 2018 at 8:24:34 AM

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#19420: Nov 10th 2018 at 11:56:29 AM

Personally, I think you should do it.

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
TheDragonDemands I am Jack's Smirking Revenge from Now Since: Oct, 2014
I am Jack's Smirking Revenge
#19421: Nov 13th 2018 at 9:43:02 AM

I'd need everyone's help filling out the Tropes side of things. I read more than I write on here, and I'm not as familiar with your setup: both in terms of basic formatting, and I don't know every trope out there.

But if you guys will help round it out...I'll put in the top the "source material" of my written report then four hours of video reports, citations, so people can improve it better than I can...

TheDragonDemands I am Jack's Smirking Revenge from Now Since: Oct, 2014
I am Jack's Smirking Revenge
#19422: Dec 15th 2018 at 8:16:02 AM

Alright, I threw together a tropes page for Empire of Ash:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/EmpireOfAsh

Work in progress - I need help with formatting and such (it's different here than on wikia) and any extra tropes people can think of that apply, based on the leak report (the main one on the wiki, plus other stuff I said on You Tube faction profiles I made):

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/EmpireOfAsh

KproTM Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: Californicating
#19423: Dec 19th 2018 at 6:43:02 PM

The Dragon Demands,

I'm also begun including some edits to give the page more flesh and content. If you feel some of the content may be too much fluff let me know.

I really would like Empire of Ash to come true!

TheDragonDemands I am Jack's Smirking Revenge from Now Since: Oct, 2014
I am Jack's Smirking Revenge
#19424: Jan 9th 2019 at 7:59:04 AM

Any help is greatly needed. I've been updating a bit more. Trolls also keep blanking the page and replacing it with anti-books messages.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#19425: Mar 5th 2019 at 9:12:15 AM

New trailer!:

Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 5th 2019 at 12:12:29 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

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