The Order of the Stick

Again, this is only my personal interpretation, but I don't think that the Snarl is capable of "trying to talk" in the sense of, "Here, let's sit down and work out all these issues we're having."

I believe that it is indeed an inchoate mass formed from the threads of creation and the ire of the gods. I just think that it's evolved into something more than that over the millions(?) of years it's been in existence. It may be like the event horizon of a black hole: not sapient in and of itself but concealing a completely different reality beneath.

It is possible that connecting a final quiddity to it will bridge some sort of gap and reveal what's inside.

Yes, I do assume that because there hasn't been any example of the Snarl not doing that. Although the nature of the Snarl remains mysterious and the presence of a planet in the rift is a question that will need answering, that it is a murderous creature that kills everything it comes across is not in question. If all we had were the crayon drawings, I might be inclined to think that there might be more to it, but we've seen it go on a sudden and unprovoked rampage at the end of Blood Runs in the Family.

Seems rather callous to say that the gods should demand that a mortal sacrifice their soul to test talking to the Snarl.

And again, fighting it with a mortal given divine power by all three pantheons wouldn't work. The Snarl remains more real than anything created by the gods and very capable of destroying it.

And also again, such a thing would result in a mortal that is capable of turning against the gods and destroying them if that mortal wanted to. Not to mention that you could never get every god of every pantheon to agree to such a plan due to the risk this would pose to them.

And did it start a rampage? It seems to have rather forcibly emerged from the portal, but looking at it again, I can't be sure the Snarl actually killed anyone on-panel.

Yes, I'm going to go out and say that telepathically looking over an empty patch of ocean is not an attack.

And yes, one of the soldiers is attacked. The one to the lower left of Laurin and Miron. Gets struck right in the back.

Edited by Resileafs on Apr 29th 2024 at 4:41:06 AM

Maybe - it's hard to tell if he was actually killed/soul devoured since he's wearing a helmet and you can't see if he has Xs in his eyes. The Snarl doesn't seem to have killed anyone else on that panel.

And what was it doing to Lauren? Was it possibly trying to communicate through her?

"Well maybe it didn't kill him" is a pointless thought exercise. The Snarl attacked the soldier. It was most likely going to attack everything else around it. To claim otherwise is grasping at straws.

Yeah. "What if the Snarl wasn't going to do the thing it has done every other time anyone has encountered it," is a straw-clutching exercise.

Well, like you and Resileafs were both saying earlier, there has certainly been enough foreshadowing that the Snarl might not be the essentially mindless god-killing aberration everyone thinks it is before the end of Blood Runs in the Family showed it erupting out of a gate and seemingly going on a rampage.

What if the end of that book is basically misdirection on Rich's part, and the Snarl didn't actually immediately soul devour everyone in the area?

Edited by Bense on Apr 29th 2024 at 3:28:46 AM

We know the Snarl was attacking people before the Scribblers sealed it, though, too. Between that and the attack in the desert it is almost certainly something that attacks things it is aware of.

The reason it didn't react until the probe is much more likely to do with the thing where the Gates existing keep the Snarl unaware of the rifts, beyond just keeping the rifts sealed. That's why the Snarl isn't reaching down into Gobbotopia; magic we were explicitly told about.

If no one had been harmed, I might be inclined to accept that interpretation. But we see someone being attacked (and most likely killed on the spot) by the Snarl. Just as Rich clearly has put some extra questions about the Snarl throughout the story, he also has clearly shown it murdering people.

Edited by Resileafs on Apr 29th 2024 at 4:55:27 AM

As I think about it, the Snarl attacked immediately after Lauren "scanned" the rift with her psionic powers. I think that's the answer: it's not "aware" of the rifts until/unless someone calls attention to them.

I could also see the possibility of it just being really bad at communicating and/or working off of alien sensibilities. It's trying to communicate, but the creatures on the other side don't seem to have clearly labeled ports, and they get violent when you pick the wrong holes...

Of course it's bad at communication.

It's a being born from a massive divine argument.

So, perhaps this has been suggested before, but let me ask:

Are there any beings known to be or have been present in the Order of the Stick setting that: A) Are intelligent, at least to the level of sentience and B) Are incapable of speech?

(I'd guess that (B) excludes abilities like telepathy, or even mundane abilities like writing; that is, it's specifically a lack of verbal communication that I'm asking after.)

To explain:

While I'm not giving up my pet theory on the matter, all this talk of deities, etc. has prompted a new idea regarding the Monster in the Darkness:

Could they be a relatively-new or still-nascent deity of a species that is otherwise intelligent, but incapable of speech? Maybe a noteworthy member that has been empowered by the belief of their peers, or a being generated ex nihilo from such belief?

That might explain why they can speak, while others of their kind are expected to not do so, as well as the incredible powers that they have.

Mimi is intelligent but hasn't spoken yet, though I don't think we know if she is incapable of speech or just prefers not to. Being a shapeshifter, you would think she can speak if she wishes.

The idea that the Monster in the Darkness is a god of some type has been floated several times by fans. I think that breaks the statement from the Giant that he's a known monster type that can be guessed, because if he's a known monster type but also has god powers the normal monster type doesn't then he really can't be guessed from his powers.

Good point about Mimi—I had forgotten that!

However, I seem to recall that at least one edition indicates that Mimics speak Common, don't they...?

You see, I'm not convinced that he said quite that.

To quote from one of the Giant in the Playground threads, he appears to have said the following:

Nowhere there does he indicate that it's a D&D monster. He said that:

• It's possible to guess
  • Which just means that it's within the realm of things that someone might think of; it's not something unknown to everyone.
• He's been dropping hints
  • Which means that it's something with known properties
• And that he "trust[s] that someone will figure it out eventually"
  • Which means that it's possible to reach an accurate conclusion based on what's known.

... None of which indicates that it's a fair game, or an easy guess, or even simply that we're dealing with a D&D monster-type—or just a D&D monster.

Hence my two theories—the one above, in which the Monster is a deified D&D monster, and my "main" pet theory, in which it's a non-D&D verson of a D&D monster, perhaps from the world within the Rift.

Both of which are:

• Possible to guess
  • After all, I did
• Things with known properties
  • After all, D&D monsters have known properties, as do D&D—and especially Order of the Stick—deities, as might whatever world is in the Rift, depending on its theme
• Reachable from the information at hand
  • Again, I did so

That is, I feel like people have been hamstringing themselves in their attempts to uncover the nature of the Monster by adding a rule to the guessing that the Giant didn't actually specify.

Yes, your typical 3.5 mimic can speak common. In fact the Dragon OotS strips (which are a different continuity from the rest of the comic) had a mimic that spoke common.

Ah, I thought so! Mimics then wouldn't work for my theory: If I recall correctly, someone was surprised that the Monster could speak at all...

The big game hunter stereotypes who first captured him in a jungle in Start of Darkness were surprised he could speak common. They were also surprised to find "one of these in this part of the world," whether that means "in a jungle" or "in this specific jungle" is left ambiguous. They certainly thought he would be valuable, though.

One of the known properties of deities is that they can't be hypnotised into, for example, devouring a goblin and spitting out his necklace when certain conditions are met.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Apr 30th 2024 at 4:37:53 PM

Aah, was it Common specifically? Fair enough!

And that puts paid to the theory! Fair enough again!

Whatever MitD is, it must be a creature that can be found in a natural environment, even if it is atypical of its kind. That massively constrains the possibilities.

• It eats, breathes, and excretes.
• It is no bigger than Large in its juvenile form, but can be much larger as an adult.
• Its kind does not normally speak Common. (Inferred: it is not unique; it is a member of a species.)
• It has a "reasonable" assortment of appendages that are capable of dextrous manipulation.
• It is not Always Chaotic Evil or is at least capable of moral choice.
• It has DR/Epic or some related category that causes a high-level paladin's swords to "tickle".
  • It can get paper cuts on its tongue, indicating that its insides don't have DR. This may also just be a one-off joke.
• It has an extremely high Strength score and the ability to generate earthquakes by stomping.
• It is capable of swallowing a Medium-sized creature whole.
• It has some innate spellcasting or psionic abilities, even if it doesn't realize that.
• It is not immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
• It has an aura of fear or disgust, or is at least unnaturally awful in appearance.

The biggest problem with the analysis of what it might be is that "high-level psionics/spellcasting" and "vulnerable to mind-affecting magic" are rarely found together. There are Epic-level monsters that could fit most of the criteria but would not be considered "natural" in any reasonable sense.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 30th 2024 at 2:10:45 PM

In my experience people tended to think of and play 3.5 Mimics as big dumb monsters that are unintelligent and incapable of speech, rather than intelligent people you could easily bargain with. That said, 3.5 Mimics also cannot take on humanoid forms or manage a walking pace.

It's possible Mimi is special, or from a homebrew Mimic subspecies, but I would imagine the author just decided this way of doing Mimics was cooler.

It is also possible that deciding Mimi can go human-shaped was simply changing the game's rules, but her muteness is particular to her, rather than a general trait of Mimics. Maybe she doesn't know how to shapeshift the requisite internal anatomy to make speech sounds; maybe she has some injury that prevents speech which persists through shapeshifting; maybe she is nonspeaking for psychological reasons.

I wonder if Serini could identify the MitD. She seems to have a ton of species knowledge.

>Three is enough to contain. Four can imprison it permanently. They would probably need a fifth to actually kill it.

Hm, there's a thought, isn't there. Stories like this, about a sealed danger threatening to escape, rarely end with the danger just being sealed in the can again but we promise it's tighter this time. They tend to get handled more decisively than that.

Of course Rich can and will do whatever he wants forever, regardless of what "stories like this" "tend to" do, but if he did just seal the Snarl in the end, he'd still want to make it narratively satisfying, and that's real hard to imagine.