The Order of the Stick

So I'm looking for loopholes. I can see two: The heroes might be able to pop off a dispel to free the council, accept that they're going to turn to stone, and then be restored after the vote. Second, I'm not sure it covers magic items, and Haley has a lot of wands.

Where do, you know, cats, ravens and honestly-just-a-lizards fit into this?

Or just polymorphic fun times in general?

Edited by Euodiachloris on Mar 1st 2019 at 7:50:23 PM

Durkon saving the day by breaking the law would be pretty baller.

The rules specify that spells used on creatures are forbiden. I think this is very much giving further hints that the save will happen with Durkon destroying the voting room and bathing the room in sunlight to destroy the vampires.

That depends very much on when the effect happens. If it interrupts the trigger (like attacks of opportunity do, for example) then you can't cast a spell at anyone, period.

Edit: I note that while spells and supernatural abilities are forbidden, extraordinary abilities aren't. Is there any of those that could help?

Edited by Aetol on Mar 1st 2019 at 9:31:05 PM

The simplest loophole/spanner I can see: The council members are being told to vote Yes to the main proposal, with no specifics regarding what that proposal actually is. This is being done under the assumption that the main proposal will be the End of the World vote.

That main proposal ends up being anything else, for any reason, they can vote freely, barring vampiric orders.

Edited by sgamer82 on Mar 1st 2019 at 1:55:27 PM

Have his teeth always been that color?

I believe they're still red from back when he converted the people in front of the temple of Thor.

It sounds like the vampires plan to be in the room when the vote happens, so even if the main proposal isn't about ending the world they can still tell the council how to vote when it does come up.

Hence "barring vampiric orders."

I mostly just think the main proposal not being what the vampires expected would make for a hilarious punchline.

That would work.

I mean, all it would take was for someone to tell Dvalin what's going on, and he proposes something else first before getting to the end the world vote...

Or he phrases the original question in a way that voting yes is voting against destroying the world.

One big setup comic for the next battle, including some possible loopholes in the arena rules. Neat.

There should still be one more barrier, though. The council chambers were said to be made of three rings, each with it's own protection.

Edited by LSBK on Mar 1st 2019 at 3:44:24 AM

"This brings us to the main proposal. Dwarves of the council, a matter of grave urgency has befallen our world. A terrible evil may rise up and destroy this world and the very souls within it. My peers think it may be wise to destroy the world so that the souls of the living can find safe haven in the afterlife, but I am unconvinced.

I wish to vote against this proposition, but I must as always confer with you first. I wish to fight this evil and take a chance on a better way. Do you agree with my course of action?"

It only requires that someone be able to dispel the barriers. You would think they would assign a dwarf with that ability, should it be necessary.

I like Resileaf’s idea. This whole arc has bern written around both sides finding loopholes in the rules (like a boydguard not being forbidden from attacking their own cleric). The rules only stating that you can’t attack or spellcast on “any creature” seems like a promising opening for a dramatic finish, especially with Durkon having a fancy new hammer.

That's good too, but I also think it's too simple a solution. This will probably come down to Durkon and the Exarch arguing before the council, Durkon trying to release the elders from their domination, and the Exarch trying to preserve it. Meanwhile each would dearly love to destroy the other, but they cant.

If Belkar gets vampirised and freed, he can give orders to the clan chiefs. Think about that as an ending to his arc: he doesn't change alignment, instead he's able to save the day because he's still Evil, so his "vampire spirit" is just him. "The angel doesn't work here any more". (Of course he'd still have to be Killed Off for Real at some point).

...and ah, dammit, I've just realised he can't even enter the chamber. Aww, I liked that theory...

Question: could explosive runes pass through the barrier?

Not the way I'm reading it. They can't even turn undead. Nothing prevents them from blowing a hole in ceiling, but that sounds unsatisfying to me.

Re my debate scenario- it would be ironic if Durkon used Thor's superweapon... merely as a rhetorical device. It proves that he has Thor's blessing and support, after all.

Edited by DeMarquis on Mar 1st 2019 at 9:11:48 AM

Well, it wouldn't be the first time...

What's the defensive point of having the two barriers separated? It seems like all that does is give space for someone to find a loophole. What would happen if there were one barrier that combined both effects?

I wondered recently if there were some significance to both Roy and Durkon acquiring ranged weapons, and now I'm wondering if there's anything (besides the stone walls...) to stop them all flinging weapons and arrows at the vampires within the chamber?

Sometimes magic spells have a choose one effect. You're expecting it to have a choose one or more effect. I think each barrier is only able to test one thing.

Yeah, it's likely just too hard to make one barrier. I suppose they could try a very thick door (like a double-glazed window) though.

I'm wondering how the second barrier parses dwarven law. Like, I'm pretty sure 'killing vampires' isn't against the law, but would it know the victim was a vampire, and would that override 'killing dwarves', which I'm guessing would be against the law?

Given that the first barrier counts the vampires as Dwarves, I'd imagine that would count. Not that it really matters, because 'no attacking or using a spell or supernatural ability on any creature' is the only rule we're absolutely sure the barrier enforces, and if you somehow found a way of killing vampires that didn't violate that, you're almost certainly exploiting a loophole of some kind that would also stop the barrier from deciding that you've killed anyone.

Edit: Now, this is such an obvious hole that I'm sure they'll have accounted for it somehow, but what about a Fireball or similar spell? It targets an area, not a creature, so technically you argue that tossing one in the room isn't directly attacking or using a spell on anyone.

Edited by Gilphon on Mar 3rd 2019 at 12:14:19 PM