The Order of the Stick

Actually, it seems like they built the statue before the Order of the Scribble split up and each took a gate.

You can see it in strip 276 before they just couldn't stand it anymore.

So even if the statue is a part of some trick, it's not going to be something like the rift actually being there.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 11th 2018 at 2:10:41 PM

That's actually part of my point for why the statue might be the Gate.

The Gates were built to seal the Rifts. By definition, they must have existed before their surrounding dungeons did. Kraagor's statue predates the Tomb and, in fact, the argument that created the Tomb. There was a Rift here, then there was a statue, and a dungeon came some time after.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 11th 2018 at 1:12:27 PM

So I don't know if Rich cares this much but the mountains in the background aren't exactly the same pattern as where the gate is.

Edit: Actually I'm wrong. The mountains are the same. Not sure if that proved anything though.

Edited by Kostya on Sep 11th 2018 at 3:11:07 PM

The comic shows that the statue was built before they had even researched how to build a gate around a rift. Ergo, the statue could not have been built around a rift.

Edited by Clarste on Sep 11th 2018 at 12:10:56 PM

Edit: I'm wrong ignore me.

Edited by Kostya on Sep 11th 2018 at 3:12:50 PM

I mean, obviously we have to take the flashback panels with a grain of salt. At best, it's a story being told by someone who wasn't there.

Edited by Clarste on Sep 11th 2018 at 12:14:49 PM

I don't think that really follows in this particular detail. I don't think it makes much sense to assume that ever single detail is being described, so what people and locations look like should be taken at face value until given a reason not to.

And the landscapes between where the rift is and the statue is are different.

Skimming this conversation I feel the need to say "Stop, Occam time."

Barring something I've missed or an forgetting, the simplest idea that requires the fewest new assumptions is that the gate is, as thus far advertised, hidden within Kraagor's Dungeon. Nothing in-story has, as yet, suggested there's more to this than meets the eye. There could well be but there isn't enough to do more than speculate in circles with.

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 11th 2018 at 2:00:19 AM

Someone wondering what to do next is more likely to try and consider other options to solve the Tomb than they are to start looking for places that aren't the Tomb. The next logical step after getting fed up with treating it as a gauntlet is to start treating it as a puzzle, but both of these approaches would be wrong if the answer is that the Tomb is simply unsolvable.

Right, which is the same scenario whether the Tomb is unsolvable because the Gate is buried in the mountain itself, or because the Gate is actually in the statue. Except that the statue, which is right outside the dungeon, is exponentially more likely to be the first thing a seeker thinks of once they decide the answer isn't in the dungeon, to say nothing of the infinitely higher likelihood of something discovering the Gate by accident if it's in the statue and not the mountain.

Again, hiding something in plain sight is only worth the risk of someone finding it by chance either if it's something you need easy access to, or if you lack the means to put up better physical defenses, nevermind that it's only effective if the person you're hiding it from doesn't know what they're looking for. Serini had no need whatsoever for easy access to the Gate, and she clearly didn't lack the resources to guard it physically, so why would she risk leaving it in a state where it could be discovered by chance, nevermind the likelihood of anyone specifically searching for the Gate to think of checking the statue sooner or later?

I do agree with you about the risk of taking out one's temper on the statue. It certainly helps that there's a big tribe of sentient creatures situated around the thing; it's like five feet outside Oona's front door. Creatures who have no idea who Kraagor is but consider the place a blessing and are thus motivated to protect it, and may or may not have means to contact Serini - if she's not already in the village.

Are you actually suggesting that the bugbear tribe is working for Serini? You're really reaching for anything that so much as smells like evidence at this point.

Working for her? No. But I would not be surprised if she has some sort of arrangement or association with them.

They are a group of monsters who live in the immediate vicinity of a Gate said to be defended by monsters. They appear to have no actual knowledge of Kraagor's Gate - Oona doesn't even know who the statue is - but, like, the monsters inside the dungeon probably aren't knowledgeable employees with payrolls either.

Oona is an interesting character. She gets along better with the MITD than anyone else. She has no reverence for the Dark One and when Redcloak offers to improve relations between her bugbears and the other goblinoids, she's just like, "LOL WHATEVS". When Team Evil comes crawling out of one of the dungeons, she even encourages them to go take another go right then and there while they're already weakened from their first plunge.

By her own admission, the only thing Oona really cares about is that Xykon and Redcloak don't f*ck up Monster Hollow in the process of finding whatever they came here to find. The bugbears have a good thing going here and they'd kindly like to have it continue.

Thus, one wonders if the bugbears just fortuitously discovered Monster Hollow one day by chance, or if they are in fact a part of the defenses.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 11th 2018 at 5:43:34 AM

Me. I do that. I do that every time, because the scenery around the dungeon tends to be full of hidden treasure that might become inaccessible after you beat the dungeon.

What is this mirror world you live in where RPG players always go straight to the next plot objective without any exploring?

Edited by Gilphon on Sep 11th 2018 at 8:04:50 AM

I had a particularly scheme-happy DM once, she liked playing tricks like that to keep us on our toes. We spent a lot of time trying to counter her plans. Once, she used the shell trick Xykon used in Azure City and sent us to explore a set of four dungeons, when the thing we were looking for was actually in one of our backpacks the entire time. We only noticed midway through the second dungeon.

I suppose it's not outside the realm of possibility that Serini suggested a tribe of Bugbears move into this area a few decades back. I'm not sure I buy it though. If she is clever enough to hide the Gate inside the mountain itself maybe she's also clever enough to realize they would be enough to scare off most people curious enough to investigate. Then again I think that plan only makes sense if the Gate really isn't hidden in one of the caverns. Why would Serini influence them to move there if there was the possibility a Bugbear could randomly stumble upon the Gate and fuck shit up?

On a tangent, I'm going to make a prediction: Mit D's attempts to hinder Team Dark's finding of the gate will be what ends up helping them find it as Redcloak will use science to find out about where it is after all the doors are seemingly exhausted from Xykon's randomness.

I'm not sure if Team Evil's supposed to find the Gate. As LSBK pointed out, the narrative function of Kraagor's Tomb is to serve as a stalling device that keeps the Gate out of Xykon and Redcloak's hands.

If they are meant to find the Gate, however, such a stalling device would be unnecessary. They were able to sit on Dorukan's Gate without pulling off the ritual for quite a while. The length of time it takes to successfully pull off the villain's evil plan is equal to the length of time it takes to reach and thwart them +1.

It's possible that the Gate isn't meant to be discovered until the Order arrives - either by the Order or in the course of the fighting between the two sides.

Either way, to avoid a rehash of Xykon and Redcloak's delves, the Gate should be somewhere that the Order can easily identify and reach once the time for the confrontation comes. The fact that Xykon and Redcloak are pounding their skulls against the dungeon means we don't really need to spend fifty comics watching the Order do the same thing.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 11th 2018 at 12:09:37 PM

The reason they didn't use the ritual on Dorukan's gate was because they couldn't get around the magic runes that zapped Evil-align peeps who tried to touch it- they weren't just sitting there waiting for the ritual to be done.

I'm not sure if we've been given a precise timeframe for how long the ritual will take, but IIRC it's a time measured in hours. So, y'know, we do need a narrative stalling device.

Edit: No, sorry, According to Xykon it's weeks.

Edited by Gilphon on Sep 12th 2018 at 3:16:43 PM

Wait, weeks? Doesn't Belkar have like 3 or 4 weeks left at this point? So I'm guessing he either doesn't live to see this Gate opened, or else dies as it's opened. The other possibility is shortly afterwards, but it seems strange to put two such dramatic and long-awaited plot developments close together without being directly related.

I quite like the idea that Serini was involved in the bugbear tribe moving in and influenced their culture of carefully managing the monster population. We already know they moved in after the Tomb was built, that's quite a short period of time to develop such a strong cultural attachment to a natural feature if it all happens organically.

OK, let's consider that possibility.... ...Everyone done? Good.

The flipside to Occam's Razor where WMG is concerned is that the most logical and straightforward development is neither interesting nor challenging to speculate about, so there's basically nothing to discuss. You're left merely waiting for the next installment to come out. Plus, of course, Occam's Razor doesn't really apply to a fictional universe in the first place, because what's realistically likely is never as important as what's interesting. This is the work that gave us the memorable page quote for Rule of Drama, after all.

Having said that, there are a few people in this discussion who could take it a little less seriously, so the reminder that this is all baseless speculation is useful in that regard.

It's weeks to complete Xykon and Redcloak's ritual. They probably won't complete it, though, so the length of time only matters inasmuch as it would provide a needed period of time in which the Order can show up and thwart them.

Since that's fine enough as a stalling narrative device on its own, the redundant stalling device of Kraagor's Tomb indicates that they probably won't even find the Gate until the Order gets there. But the Gate does need to be found eventually before the story can be completed.

Thus: Xykon and Redcloak's efforts need to be fruitless, and yet the Gate also needs to be somewhere that will not be overly difficult to uncover once we move into that stage of the story. There's very limited narrative potential in "The Order fights a bunch of monsters. Repeat ad nauseum." Like. There's a reason the comic left all of that offscreen when Team Evil was doing it. It's boring.

Actually exploring the Tomb isn't very interesting. As presented, it's just a completely 100% straightforward dungeoncrawl with no twists of any kind. Fight monsters, move on, fight monsters, move on, fight monsters. The interesting stuff is what surrounds Team Evil's descents into the Tomb, the stuff that will happen when the Order arrives, and the stuff that will happen when the Gate is found and inevitably destroyed.

Which is why it's unlikely that the Order will need to delve into the Tomb. One way or another, the Gate will probably be somewhere where they can easily either find it themselves or pursue Team Evil into.

That's just what I think, anyway. I really don't expect us to spend half a book on the various adventures of the Order of the Stick as they comb through each passage in the Tomb.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 12th 2018 at 10:59:23 AM

That last part is why I mentioned Occam's Razor in the first place. I enjoy speculation but it was well past that "taken too seriously" stage where people seemed to be assuming their speculation to be fact instead of theory.

Times like that it's useful, I think, to give a reminder of where we actually stand at the moment.

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 12th 2018 at 11:02:10 AM

Does it, though? Destroying the Gate is a "lose" condition for the Order, as presented at the Godsmoot. The gods will take that as a sign that it's time to destroy the world within 15 minutes or risk the Snarl escaping. Depending on what Thor has to say to Durkon in the next few strips, I could see him steering the Order to some other way of defeating Xykon and removing the threat of the Snarl. While it would be boring for the Order to simply show up, fight Team Evil, and somehow win with no other twists, I could very well see the story resolving without Team Evil getting any closer to the Gate than they are now.

@The ritual takes weeks so Belkar will die first: That assumes the ritual even happens. I have a feeling the last gate is going to be destroyed and the Snarl being unleashed will be the book's cliffhanger. It might even end with Belkar dying to it.

We know there's another book. I don't see how an entire book's worth of material can occur if Team Evil is defeated now. The Snarl will escape. That much is certain to me. The last book will probably be about stopping it somehow.

Edited by Kostya on Sep 12th 2018 at 1:14:13 PM

The Snarl is the Sealed Evil in a Can and that never actually stays sealed. It'll get out. It's just a matter of what will make things different this time so that it doesn't kill everyone/is stopped permanently.

And I don't know what that means for Team Evil but they're not just going to be shunted aside. The Snarl is a plot device, not an antagonist. Rich has made his point on that clear.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 12th 2018 at 12:15:59 PM

I expect the Snarl World is significant. The last book might be the Order and Team Evil exploring it prior to their confrontation.

I didn't say now. I said, "without getting any closer to the Gate." There are already four open rifts to fight the Snarl or visit its planet through, at least one of which (Girard's) it has already appeared at. How could Team Evil get distracted from their goal in Monster Hollow, so that they fight the Order somewhere else? No idea, but Xykon's Astral fortress comes to mind.

New comic: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html