Avatar: The Last Airbender

And we see that in katara vs zuko, while Katara was able to dominate Zuko the moment he get a plus from the sun he was able to make a atack that katara wasnt able to block.

Also is just me or Zuko is like worst bender of the good guys?.

What do you expect when his firebending was initially based on rage and evil?

Another Water Tribe philosophy is the strength of a community and unity of a family, and cherishing both of that.

Unity and loyalty to a cause greater than your own self gives you access to knowledge and strength. In learning, you will come to teach, and through teaching you relearn what you've learned, and also open yourself to learning new things.

Well, to be fair, Katara got through Pakku's stubborn mind, while Toph failed to change the minds of her own parents. That, and the fact that the Southern Water Tribe is the first to make a move to go assist the Earth Nation, rather than the other way around, shows that they are willing to look at the wider global community as a whole. Instead of isolating themselves further like the Earth Kingdoms.

Also, going back to traditions, we see the Water Tribes breaking more traditions than any of the other nations throughout the entirety of the show. We don't see the Earth Kingdom armies going out to help the Water Tribes, nor do the Earth Kingdom provinces even unite as one to combat the Fire Nation effectively. The Fire Nation clinging onto their ruthless and jingoistic principles is one of the main reasons why the war drags on for a hundred years. And we all know that Aang wouldn't intentionally and wholeheartedly break one of his own culture's principles.

Also, it is a member of the Water Tribe (Sokka) that encourages technological innovation to help bolster the good guys' chances of winning the war.

Water Tribe people go with the flow, but they're more than willing to make alterations to the course if the situation calls for it. Air Nomads would just commit themselves to the situation and try to make the best of it.

In terms of bending skill and growth, Katara arguably gets the most out of the team's benders, due to being so versatile and open to the world around her.

In Sokka's case, it's easily more noticeable, because as a nonbender, he has to think and learn fast to stay alive.

Not to me, personally.

Given all of the Four Nations' philosophies, along with their Four-Temperament Ensemble alignments, the Water Tribes do behave much more empathetically by nature.

The Air Nomads have a tendency to be detached, the Fire Nation has a tendency to be selfish with their passions, and the Earth Kingdoms tend to be harsh and reliant on an enforced social hierarchy.

Edited by BrightLight on Mar 29th 2020 at 11:45:49 PM

Zuko is only relatively bad bender wise because he is surrounded by prodigies. Katara learned things really fast once she got proper masters (Paku and Hama), Toph is Toph, and Aang is the Avatar and was a master at his born element at a young age.

Zuko's strength was always his sword fighting and tactics in combat. He managed to infiltrate a heavily guarded base full of firebenders when he was only 16 and make it out mostly okie until they called in the Yu Yan Archers whom are ridiculously good at their jobs.

I am kind of sad in hindsight that we never saw Zuko use daos ever again in the main show after Book 2. I would of liked to see him use them, his stealth skills, and the old style of firebending in a fight.

Although it's worth noting that Zuko beat Azula in firebending combat in the finale so he might of managed to catch up to the rest of the benders by then.

Edited by Wispy on Mar 29th 2020 at 7:26:06 AM

She was also going through a mental breakdown when that happened. Even Zuko only seemed confident he could beat her because she was obviously slipping.

Technically, we see Zuko use the broadswords again in a comic. Turns out, he was trained by Piandao as a child.

It also goes to prove how much of a narcissistic lunatic Ozai is. You seriously had a good swordsman at such a young age, but you chose to favor firebending talent more. Ozai could have had a grade A assassin for a son and shortened the war, but nope. More proof that narcissism isn't a good policy for anything that affects tons of people.

firebending is cooler anyway..

I'm reminded of a comic I read once about that scene;

Zuko: "I think I can win. Something's off about her."

Katara: "How can you tell?"

Azula: "I am the QUEEN of HAIRCUTS! GAHAHAHAHA!"

Zuko: "I'm not sure. It must be our bond as siblings."

That's the ultimate revelation about Ozai. For all his talk about his superiority and his hatred of weakness, Ozai is actually the weakest of Sozin's bloodline. He was sheltered for some reason in the Fire Nation, never once setting foot outside until the time came for Sozin's Comet. He never learned anything from other cultures and thus caught surprised by lightning redirect twice. He can be cowed by Zuko armed with nothing but his swords when both are deprived of their bending, which makes it deliciously ironic considering what has happened to Zuko in the past. Ozai never adapted to other situations, he just overspecialized in firebending and believed that any problem can be solved with Kill It with Fire.

The irony of his Social Darwinism is that natural selection doesn't really eliminate the weak but rather those who cannot adapt to environment. Thus, if the environment changes dramatically, individuals who overspecializes in that particular environment are more likely to perish than individuals who are the Jack of All Trades. Ozai overspecialized in fire bending and thus when his bending got taken away by Aang, he became so weak and pathetic that the newly crowned Fire Lord Zuko doesn't even bother sending Ozai to a maximum security prison that is the Boiling Rock.

It's no wonder he hates Zuko all these years. It's subconscious self-loathing of himself projected onto his child. He just didn't know it until Ursa had to spell it out for him.

Edited by Shadao on Mar 29th 2020 at 11:43:21 AM

x7 I'll give you that the water tribes where the first to help the earth kingdom, while the opposite isn't true. But what exactly do you mean by them being the ones to break more traditions? I haven't seen Korra, so the only tradition I know they broke was the "women aren't fighters" one. (I don't remember if the arranged marriage thing was abolished or not.)

And all those Katara and Sokka examples have the same problem; they're just two persons, they're not necessarily representatives of what people in the water tribes are like. I mean, they may be or they may be not, we wouldn't know for sure with only two examples.

Sure, what Iroh said must have been true; but it doesn't feel like it? Seems they put more emphasis on the community part than in love itself; if that weren't the case, why the arranged marriages? why did Gran Gran feel that she had to run away instead of just saying "no" and hoping people would understand?

It seems to me the water tribes are big on "the good the community over the individual"; Hakoda left his children to go fight in the war, Yue was willing to enter an unloving marriage cuse she felt it was her duty... (and yeah, I do realize my arguments are based on just three people and may not be representative of the water tribes a a whole, too.)

Is that empathy? I think that it is, but it's just a type of empathy; and I think the other nations can have their own type of empathy too. Maybe not the air nomads, if we take their detachment literally; they may end up being more sympathetic/condescending than emphatetic (but I believe they would only end up like that if they take their philosophies to the extreme).

That's why I find wrong to say the water tribes are more empathetic than the rest of nations. Maybe I'm biased cause lately I've been mostly just reading fics, but firebending is supposed to use passion as fuel, isn't love one of the bigger passions? Sure, some firebenders may be driven by other things; but to love others is simply part of human nature, I would think there would be plenty of firebenders driven by love. Same thing with earthbenders, they're supposed to be the oposite of airbenders, I would assume that means they would be big on earthly attachments, I would assume it would be easier to remain frim if you have firm bases where to stand; and I would assume that for some earthbenders those bases may be their family and loved ones... right? (or are human relationships too unpredictable to be considered firm?)

If that's true, then I would say the three are empathetic; but fire/earthbenders are more the type of people that would only care about those who are close to them, forget about the rest; while waterbenders would exted that empathy to others and, at the same time, disregard individual wants, their own and those of the ones closest to them, for the well being of the group (earthbenders may be somewhat like this, too).

Leaving those expeculations aside; how exactly would empathy relate to waterbending? In the sense of "earthbenders are firm and uncompromising cause they need to be strong to bend rocks, firebenders are driven and pasionate cause that's what fuels their bending, airbenders get rid of their earthly burdens to be as light as air, waterbenders are empathetic...?"

Edited by Gabo352 on Mar 29th 2020 at 4:01:04 AM

Water is not merely empathetic, it is adaptable. Water can switch from healing to killing in an instance, defense to offense, and flexible to sturdy. It can extinguish fire, drown the air and erode the earth. It's also essential for life.

You cannot predict water and that is its greatest strength and weakness. Water can be empathetic but empathy doesn't mean sympathy. You can understand a killer did and why he did it but you don't have to forgive him for it.

One can say that Water is a personification of Beware the Nice Ones.

Edited by Shadao on Mar 29th 2020 at 1:25:23 AM

So, the waterbenders are the only ones that can change their approach in any direction? earthbenders are too stubborn, firebenders can't risk what they want even if it may help them get it in the long run and airbender are uncompromising on their philosophies? waterbenders are the only ones willing to bend to the will of others to gain an advantage over them? push and pull and all that.

I CAN get behind that. The only problem is that I don't see that being reflected on their culture much.

Their culture is based on the Inuits, at least for the Southern Water Tribe. In fact, the Southern Water Tribe best reflects the nature of water. They originated from the Northern Water Tribe as tribesmen tired of the rigidity of the Northern Water Tribe. They emigrated to the South Pole or the Foggy Swamp. They achieve higher freedom and equality but do not have the wealth and stability like the Northern brethren. As such, many turned to piracy, which is why pirates roam near the South Pole.

The reason why change doesn't seem to reflect the Water Tribe is because the Northern Water Tribe was the only Water Tribe that remained intact during the Hundred Year War. The Southern Water Tribe was functionally extinct, with Katara being the last remaining Waterbender of the South Pole (at least in public, since others hide their water bending out of fear from the Fire Nation). And it was the Southern Water Tribe that innovated their art and skills while the Northern Water Tribe stagnated like their fortress of ice. It was a Southern Water Tribe member that discovered the evil art of Bloodbending, and it was Katara who changed the old-fashioned traditions of the North.

That's why the Fire Nation targeted the Southern Water Tribe first. The Northern Water Tribe was tough as the glaciers but they were isolationists, not bothering to help their Southern counterparts or the Earth Kingdom. The Southern Water Tribe can intervene for the Earth Kingdom more freely but they were more vulnerable to attack. Although theoretically the Water Tribes would be a formidable threat to the Fire Nation (more so than the Earth Kingdom), their inability to accept the differences and changes between the two is what allowed the Fire Nation to essentially steamroll over them.

Until Katara arrived and broke the ice. That is the theme of change in the Water Tribe culture.

Edited by Shadao on Mar 29th 2020 at 2:36:49 AM

I think I like that argument, it all seems to thematically hold water (heh) if you look at it globally and not just at the small bit of water tribe culture we actually saw, thank you.

Makes me whish I could what the southern water tribe was like before fire nation, or the foggy swamp. Do we learn anything important about them in Korra besides spirit shenanigans?

More info here.

To quote from the era before the Hundred Year War:

And here are some cultural differences.

Note, Korra talks about how the Hundred Year War greatly weakened the Southern Water Tribe's connection with the spirits. They've become more secular as a result by the time of the Harmonic Convergence.

Edited by Shadao on Mar 29th 2020 at 3:45:45 AM

@Shadao: Your earlier post might be reading a lot into Ozai's skill or lack thereof. Remember, he could shoot lightning too, like Azula and Iroh. Zuko couldn't. And as we've discussed before, Iroh wasn't certain he could beat Ozai in a straight fight.

Fixed post.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Mar 29th 2020 at 6:12:33 AM

Ozai had also searched for the Avatar like Zuko did at one point according to Iroh. So its not like he never went anywhere.

Ozai could or couldn't?

The point I'm making is that Ozai has no skills beyond firebending. Take away his firebending, and you're left with a helpless man. The reason why Iroh doesn't believe he could defeat Ozai is because Ozai practiced that one special kick a thousand times.

It seems to be a case of Early-Installment Weirdness since it's only mentioned in the first episode, which also features a more strict Uncle Iroh.

Edited by Shadao on Mar 29th 2020 at 4:08:01 AM

Zuko couldn't. Fixed my post.

Take away his firebending, and Ozai has an army and the good sense to find loyal and capable advisors, and position himself away from direct fights. Yes he relies on his bending, but who doesn't? Especially when you're one of the most capable benders in the world? Yes Azula was more agile and better at manipulation, and Iroh was more spiritually connected and trained to better physical shape, but that doesn't necessarily make either of them stronger overall. We even saw that Ozai's will was strong enough to almost completely overpower the Avatar, in a test of wills.

And besides, I doubt Ozai was entirely unaware that his son was trained under a master swordsman. He probably encouraged it.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Mar 29th 2020 at 6:24:16 AM

It was still said, meaning that it is still a part of the canon. Nothing really contradicts it either, and certainly does make sense in character that Ozai the second son and the unfavorite tried to accomplish what his forebearers couldn't at somepoint in order to distinguish himself.

Edited by lycropath on Mar 29th 2020 at 4:28:17 AM

And even when we see Ozai's firebending, it's either instantly undercut (like Zuko immediately redirecting it) or it's masked by the boost given by Sozin's comet. We have no real gauge of how powerful he was because we never see him normally.

Personally, I found the concussive blast used to blow up the walls of Ba Sing Se more impressive than anything Ozai did. Aang was capable of existing in a fight with him temporarily even before entering the Avatar State. If Ozai is supposed to be excellent at Firebending and nothing else, then I don't think the story shows that off as much as it could have.

But I dunno.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 29th 2020 at 11:35:34 AM

Ozai had that flamethrower that was burning down a huge swathe of the land that took at about a dozen other elite firebenders on the other airships to match, that's a pretty insane.

Ozai's pedigree as a firebender without the comet is pretty easily illustrated with the incredibly fast draw speed on his use of lightning. See the single movement he does to shoot at Zuko with a sliver of sunlight compared to how much motion and concentration it takes for Azula with Sozin's comet, or Iroh while he is teaching Zuko.

Edited by lycropath on Mar 29th 2020 at 4:37:17 AM

True enough, I suppose. I just find it hard to take in the impressiveness of his lightning when it's immediately undone every time. And a flamethrower just isn't as cool as something like the magic grenade that Iroh used.

There's the intellectual part of me that can concede that he's definitely powerful based on the objective things that we see about him. But I'm never emotionally affected by him and his bending. I'm never worried that he's too strong to be fought. Because the story just isn't structured that way.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 29th 2020 at 11:43:29 AM

To be fair, its not like we saw Iroh really do much either, the most impressive bending we get out of him do without Sozin's Comet is slap around some of Zhao's mooks.

Edited by lycropath on Mar 29th 2020 at 4:44:24 AM

He also casually shut down Azula's lightning and booted her off the ship.

Iroh does a lot of little things that build up over time into the image of a master. Tiny stuff like effortlessly disarming a guy of his knife and tripping him up without even trying. Or breaking out of prison.

Most of the White Lotus masters get to show off. Especially someone like King Bumi.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 29th 2020 at 11:47:26 AM