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Kara vs Kal
- How exactly did Kara beat Superman? Even if we discount for males been naturally stronger than females, Kal-El still should have kicked Kara's ass, Why? Because it's been established since the first episode that he has a decade, maybe fifteen years more experience than her, at least.
- Because Superman isn't invincible, and gender has no effect on combat capability?
- Did you not read anything after the initial question? I was saying that Kara should have lost because Superman has literally over a decade more experience than her.
- Superman wasn't thinking straight. He believed he was fighting his mortal enemy and he was ticked off. Even a more experienced fighter can lose their edge if they get hot-headed.
- Even under those circumstances he should have won, there is this thing called "Muscle Memory".
- From a Doylist standpoint, it justifies why Kara is the one to face Rhea the end rather than Superman. She is the main character after all, so she gets the privilege of taking down the Big Bad. It would make no sense if she went in the place of a superior fighter like Superman, so showing that she was capable of beating him in battle explains why she's chosen to be champion.
- That much is obvious, but it still could've been written better, such as: Supergirl stumbles across some Kryptonite Rhea was keeping while getting her ass kicked by her cousin, deciding to take a risk she stab Superman with the Kryptonite, this lets her win while also giving a reason for Kara to fight, as Superman is too injured for combat.
- We discount "males being naturally stronger" because that is human males. Kara and Kal are Kryptonian. Kryptonian females could definitely be stronger than Kryptonian males. Also: Superman was poisoned with Silver Kryptonite at the time, which was making him hallucinate. In any case, however, Kara beat Kal-El because she was a better fighter. Unlike Superman, Kara works for a government agency and regularly trains (we've seen rooms in the DEO that simulate red sunlight, too). Training + strength is better than simple brute strength.
- Numerous stories involving superheroes (which have included Superman) have shown that many of them, especially the ones who've won the superpower lottery as Kryptonians on Earth have, frequently find themselves at a disadvantage when the superpower advantage is taken out and they have to use actual fighting skill which most don't have because they've never needed them before.
- You're both forgetting that Superman also once worked for the DEO, and thus most likely received the same training and has over a decade of experience to go along with it, and since the removal of the superpower advantage would also apply to Kara, Superman should win via been a better and more experienced fighter
- Superman only briefly worked with the DEO, not for. There's no reason to assume he underwent the same sort of hand-to-hand training Kara did, which was mostly at the insistence of Alex and J'onn, both of whom had personal reasons for wanting to make sure she was as capable as possible.
- Why wouldn't they make Superman undergo the same training, plus you forget that J'onn was in charge of the DEO back then as well.
- First, J'onn didn't become head of the DEO until several years after Superman had been active, as was shown on the show, and the show also clearly stated they didn't work together very well or very long, especially as J'onn was pretending to be an anti-alien Hank Henshaw. Second, while we don't know what Superman may or may not have done in training for hand to hand combat, if he received any, we know that Supergirl did, fairly extensively.
- On the issue of strength, a Kryptonian male may indeed, on average, be significantly stronger than a Krytonian female on Krypton, but there's no evidence that difference stays proportionally the same from being on Earth. While a male might bench-press 100 kilos and a female 50 kilos on Krypton, when they get to Earth it might mean he can bench 5,000,100 kilos while she can "only" bench 5,000,050 kilos. If you're lifting five thousand tonnes, one person being able to lift 50 kilos more than the other is an insignificant difference.
- It makes for a difference in a fight
- The equivalent would be one ordinary human having "an advantage" over another because the first lifts the maximum weight they can, they can lift a literal feather more than the other. That's not going to give the first an advantage in any practical situation.
- No, it doesn't. And the fact that you seem so hellbent on Superman winning the fight (despite the fact that Supergirl has been shown to be stronger than him in the comics as well and this is her show) says more about you than it does about him.
- In the comics Supergirl was stronger because she spent decades in orbit getting a more intense dosage of yellow sun radiation, that never happened here, and as for the fact that this is her show; They've done a terrible job with her and the show itself, while I will admit I don't like this incarnation of Supergirl,note that doesn't say anything about me because I heavily enjoy shows like: The Legend of Korra, Star vs. the Forces of Evil and Steven Universe because they're well written. While I could easily go into a rant as to why I dislike this show despite been lenient with it and giving it multiple chances, I'll just leave you with a question; How has Kara changed as an individual since the end of the pilot episode?
- "In the comics Supergirl was stronger because she spent decades in orbit getting a more intense dosage of yellow sun radiation, that never happened here" — that's a Handwave if there ever was one. She's stronger than Kal-El, no matter what. And, in the show, she has received more training in how to fight from the DEO and her sister — something Superman never did (we are given no indication that the DEO trained him, especially since he was Superman long before the DEO existed). So, a combination of stronger + better trained = Supergirl should have and did win. I don't really care if you say "Oh, but I like all these other shows with female characters," the fact that you continue to insist that Supergirl should have lost is stupid. Supergirl won. The end. (Oh and she has changed since the pilot. She's gotten more confident in who she is, both in being Supergirl and in being Kara Danvers.)
- "She's stronger than Kal-El, no matter what." Why? Why should she, for no reason, always be stronger than Superman? Yeah, your right she has gotten more confident, which is great for some who's Fatal Flaw is having a giant ego. Also It's been revealed that Superman received training on Warworld, last time Kara went up against some with that level of training she only won because Mon-El told her of a crippling weakness the guy had, and for Superman to be on Earth right now means he would have most likely had to fight his way of Warworld. Look, my problem isn't that she won, it's how she won; Here's how it could have been done believably: Supergirl stumbles across some Kryptonite Rhea was keeping while getting her ass kicked by her cousin, deciding to take a risk she stab Superman with the Kryptonite. This lets her win while also giving a reason for Kara to fight Rhea in the Daxam Ur, as Superman is too injured for combat.
- Why is she stronger? I don't know, why would Superman be stronger? You are applying a double standard. Supergirl is stronger because she is. Because 1) this is a show about girl power and 2) because she is goddamn Supergirl. This isn't a show about Superman, this is a show about Supergirl. And Superman only said he learned that move on Warworld, not that he trained there. Since beginning the show, Kara has gone up against opponents that have been just as strong as Superman (and perhaps moreso) and she's defeated them all — so why would it matter if she defeated Superman, too? As for you saying that her Fatal Flaw is her giant ego — no. No it isn't. That has never been a thing on the show.
- Double Standard? How am I applying a double standard? Males are naturally stronger, much like how Women have a higher pain tolerance. Plus I've repeatedly stated that even if they were equally strong Superman should still win because he has way more experience, also ask yourself this: What was Superman doing on Warworld? I doubt it was to watch matches, and as I previously said last time Kara went up against someone from Warworld she only won because Mon-El told her of a crippling weakness the guy had. And yes, this show is about girl power, but do we even need one? Girls have been getting great representation for over a decade now, and even so, is that really a reason to undermine men in the show, I mean all of the guys spend pretty much all their time cheering on Kara and the shows two main male villains have been pretty weak as characters; Maxwell Lord just stopped showing up for no reason and Hank Henshaw whose dialogue is easily two-thirds "I am Cyborg Superman" and all other male villains have been given little character. As for her Ego, you've probably never really noticed it because the writers have neve let her stubbornness and pride bite her in the ass.
- Supergirl is stronger in this incarnation, plain and simple. Experience doesn't always give you the edge. This isn't anything new too, in Jeph Loeb's run for example Supergirl has also been described as faster and stronger on several occasions. This honestly feels like an angry fanboy raging about his favourite superhero losing (no offense).
- Experience makes for a pretty huge difference: Imagine two Boxers, one of them is stronger but has only been at it for a couple of years and the other has been at it for over a decade, the winner; Most likely the guy with more experience. Also lets do some math, Superman was a firmly established superhero when he found Kara, and then she only decided to become one twelve years later, thus even if were been lenient Superman still has at least seven times the amount of experience Supergirl has. And yes I've acknowledged that Supergirl was stronger than Superman in that run, but a reason for it was still given; "because she spent decades in orbit getting a more intense dosage of yellow sun radiation" , and while it was stated in the show that she flew at higher speeds than Superman, that could still easily just be her been willing to go faster. My problem with her winning however, isn't that Superman's my favourite hero, its that how Supergirl won doesn't make much sense from a writing standpoint (again, Superman has seven times the experience), I mean Alex was there at the end, I would have easily accepted Supergirl winning if she provided a distraction
- Writing in walls of texts with capitalized letters isn't changing anything. Yes, maybe Supergirl was stronger for a very specific reason in that run and here she is stronger just because she is. And as I already said, experience doesn't always give you the edge. It's a factor, yes, but not necessarily always the deciding one. A 200 lbs Bodybuilder for example also isn't going down to a skinny 14 year old kid just because the kid has practiced Judo for 2 years.
- That's an extreme example.
- Maybe, but it still supports my point. Experience doesn't always give you the edge. It can be a contributing factor, but it doesn't necessarily always have to be the deciding factor. Also, if you want an example from the CW-verse, just look at Arrow: Malcolm Merlyn had more experience than Oliver, Slade had more experience than Oliver, Ra's Al Ghul and Damien Darhk had several centuries more experience than Oliver, and in the end he still overcame them all.
- Slade and Damien Darhk had powers that they definitely got overly used to having that Oliver had to take away before he could beat them, Ra's Al Ghul specifically trained Oliver to kill him and I don't exactly remember how Oliver beat Merlyn, But look at their training: Merlyn spent an unspecified amount of years training with the league, which by his masters admission he never learnt everything before returning home and then sole training for over five years, which is good for retaining skills though it's a lot harder to get stronger, Oliver however spent five years having to very strong very fast because his life literally depended on him doing so. Besides, look at it this way; Guy A and Guy B are going to fight, Guy A has been practicing martial arts for nearly two decades, Guy B is twice as strong as Guy A, but has only been practicing martial arts for two years, who wins?
- Maybe Kara is also just the quicker learner? There are people who have to study math for years just to get the basics right and there are people who are just talented with it, never have to really learn anything and become geniuses.
- By that logic Superman should have been killed or forced to retire long ago
- I don't really see the connection?
- For those that refuse to believe that Supergirl is stronger/better fighter than Superman then just think it's the Kryptonite. Superman is hallucinating so he's obviously not fighting at top mental capabilities. Plus its KRYPTONITE. Even if it's silver instead of green, that doesn't necessarily rule out it is not weakening him.
- Yeah I think we can all go with that, it would just be nice for that to be stated in the show however, Kara's got enough of an ego and her superhero career has gone just a little too perfectly.
- If one overlooks the time she had bad publicity for screwing up her rescues when she started out, the time she went bad due to red kryptonite, the time Superman had to run in and save her from Reactron, the time...yes, clearly perfection.
- Other than the Red Kryptonite, those blew over rather quickly, and even with the Red Kryptonite, she was forgiven rather quickly after the helicopter thing (at the very least it was an over-the-top forgiveness)
- the show flat out said the silver kryptonite did not weaken him
- Physically, it definitely affected his mind and could have weakened him there, a comparison might be if you drank six bottles of beer and smoked a stick of marijuana, physically you're fine, but let's see how well you dance, especially compared to when your sober. (Dancing and Fighting required similar movements and skills)
- One explaination falls under the "World of Cardboard" trope. Clark has been learning to limit applications of his strength literally since he was a baby, enough that it's probably instinctive by now. Kara, on the other hand had 12-13 years of stretching herself physically without worrying about destroying the infrastructure. Then she deliberately stopped using her powers for her teen years and early adult life. As the first season incident with the oil tanker showed, she sometimes literally hasn't "known her own strength". So maybe she could use more reserves in an "all out attack" on Superman, trusting their regenerative powers would keep her last punch from being a killing blow.
- That make more sense
- I think it's a lot simpler than all of this: in a fight, you're making a bunch of split-second decisions, every single move. No two fights are exactly the same. I have no doubt Clark can bench-press more than Kara, but you can zig when you should have zagged in a split second against someone who isn't stronger than you but is strong ENOUGH that a full-force punch directly to the chin would be no fun.
- Plausible, but unlikely. Superman has at least seven times more experience than Kara, so... yeah.
- According to Andrew Kreisberg, it was a difference of ONE punch that decided everything. In other words, these two were practically equals, but Kara's last blow was enough to give her the win.
Leaving Earth
- Why did Mon-El have to leave in the ship? Supergirl still has Cisco's device, so couldn't she have just sent Mon-El from Earth-38 to Earth-1? She still would have been able to see him from time to time.
- Because even though the shows share continuity, the writers like to keep them separate so that they can make a big deal about the yearly crossovers
- That still doesn't make it any less of a plot-hole that has no in-universe explanation. It would make the crossovers less complicated.
- I don't think the studio cares about that, they just want a once a year crossover that they can get huge ratings from.
- More like, when it's not time for one of those crossovers, the show's gotta stand on its own, and can't depend on everyone watching all DC Comics shows. Also, another dimension is further from anyone and anything he knows than using the ship. Even if there's another version of the gang out there, it's not the one he knows and they might turn out to be evil or talking gerbils or something. And the more like ours they are, the more likely they have their own Mon-El, or had to use the same method to defeat their own Rhea.
- Word of God says that Earth-38 characters don't have Earth-1 doppelgangers and vice versa. And no one said he had to be a series regular on another show. He could go off and be a hero in another city.
Scotty, beam me up! ...uh, Scotty? Hello?
- Why wasn't Rhea beamed back, like every single one of her Mooks? She's literally the only member of the invasion that they didn't retrieve. You'd think when the queen was going to do personal combat, someone would have their finger right over the button, ready to pull her out the instant things looked too dangerous!
- Let's see ... Rhea drags the few thousand survivors of Daxim to a new planet, starts a war with 7 billion Earthings, her husband the rightful king dies under "mysterious" circumstances, everybody with a firearm is sniping your troops, the "regent" then accepts a sacred ritualistic fight to end the conflict and then goes back on her word and this causes the Earthings to permanently poison the planet's atmosphere for your species. Pretty sure someone at the transmat controls said "Do we really WANT her back?"
One Time Use Silver Kryptonite
- So Rhea used silver kryptonite on Superman to keep him from opposing her army. Why not just pull out the silver kryptonite and turn Supergirl too? Best case scenario, she gets two Kryptonians under her control. Worst case scenario, they fight just like they were going to anyway, and now Supergirl isn't holding back. Or heck, why not pull it out later in the episode during the one on one combat for the planet, given that Rhea is already fighting dirty.
