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Changed line(s) 22,27 (click to see context) from:
Mulan was struggling to fit in with the guys, which wouldn't have happened if she was trans; her abnormal brain structure would have fit in like a puzzle piece, but she's a fish-out-of-water for a fair bit longer. There's nothing suggesting she feels any sort of kinship beyond friendship and commendatory with her fellow solders.
As for the first two songs, a girl not liking dresses and makeup does not make her trans, and it seemed more about the roughness (the cold bath, tight clothes, hair being pulled, not even the girly girls like that) that irked her in "Honer To Us All', and when all was said and done, she seemed mildly excited at best, resigned at worst, but not all-together unhappy. This and 'Reflection' are along the same line; Mulan is a quirky (not necessarily unfeminine) girl, and in Ancient China's restrictive society, Mulan couldn't even imagine being anything but a 'perfect porcelain doll' like the others, because there was no frame of reference for a girl to be anything else. In Reflection, she can barley articulate what she wants, only that the girl she sees in the water is like a stranger to her. She's not necessarily uncomfortable with her body, she just generally feels like an outsider.
The real moment of truth is actually during the [[CrowningMusicOfAwesome incredibly underrated score]] of 'Short Hair'. Mulan, who was previously going only by what others said, is making a choice for herself and running off to the war. In the camp, Mulan is every bit as awkward as she was with the mach maker, only on a different plain. The difference is that she couldn't just go home after all the worry she's probably caused her family, she had to stick it out as long as she could. It's got nothing to do with 'who she really is', it's more to do with her basically being forced to stick with something until she finally found her niche.
As for the first two songs, a girl not liking dresses and makeup does not make her trans, and it seemed more about the roughness (the cold bath, tight clothes, hair being pulled, not even the girly girls like that) that irked her in "Honer To Us All', and when all was said and done, she seemed mildly excited at best, resigned at worst, but not all-together unhappy. This and 'Reflection' are along the same line; Mulan is a quirky (not necessarily unfeminine) girl, and in Ancient China's restrictive society, Mulan couldn't even imagine being anything but a 'perfect porcelain doll' like the others, because there was no frame of reference for a girl to be anything else. In Reflection, she can barley articulate what she wants, only that the girl she sees in the water is like a stranger to her. She's not necessarily uncomfortable with her body, she just generally feels like an outsider.
The real moment of truth is actually during the [[CrowningMusicOfAwesome incredibly underrated score]] of 'Short Hair'. Mulan, who was previously going only by what others said, is making a choice for herself and running off to the war. In the camp, Mulan is every bit as awkward as she was with the mach maker, only on a different plain. The difference is that she couldn't just go home after all the worry she's probably caused her family, she had to stick it out as long as she could. It's got nothing to do with 'who she really is', it's more to do with her basically being forced to stick with something until she finally found her niche.
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Mulan was struggling to fit in with the guys, which wouldn't have happened if she was trans; her abnormal brain structure would have fit in like a puzzle piece, but she's a fish-out-of-water for a fair bit longer. There's nothing suggesting she feels any sort of kinship beyond friendship and commendatory with her fellow solders.soldiers.
As for the first two songs, a girl not liking dresses and makeup does not make her trans, and it seemed more about the roughness (the cold bath, tight clothes, hair beingpulled, pulled; not even the girly girls like that) that irked her in "Honer "Honor To Us All', and All'; when all was said and done, she seemed mildly excited at best, resigned at worst, but not all-together unhappy. This and 'Reflection' "Reflection" are along the same line; Mulan is a quirky (not necessarily unfeminine) girl, and in Ancient China's restrictive society, Mulan couldn't even imagine being anything but a 'perfect "perfect porcelain doll' doll" like the others, because there was no frame of reference for a girl to be anything else. In Reflection, "Reflection", she can barley articulate what she wants, only that the girl she sees in the water is like a stranger to her. She's not necessarily uncomfortable with her body, she just generally feels like an outsider.
The real moment of truth is actually during the [[CrowningMusicOfAwesome incredibly underrated score]] of'Short Hair'."Short Hair". Mulan, who was previously going only by what others said, is making a choice for herself and running off to the war. In the camp, Mulan is every bit as awkward as she was with the mach maker, matchmaker, only on a different plain.plane. The difference is that she couldn't just go home after all the worry she's probably caused her family, she had to stick it out as long as she could. It's got nothing to do with 'who "who she really is', is", it's more to do with her basically being forced to stick with something until she finally found her niche.
As for the first two songs, a girl not liking dresses and makeup does not make her trans, and it seemed more about the roughness (the cold bath, tight clothes, hair being
The real moment of truth is actually during the [[CrowningMusicOfAwesome incredibly underrated score]] of
Changed line(s) 29,31 (click to see context) from:
You ever notice how one of her ancestors doesn't look remotely Asian? It's possible they have European blood and thus European features.
There are Romans who got captured at Carrhae (53 BC) and force-marched east - some say until they reached the outskirts of the Chinese empire. Then there's the Tocharians, a "white" European people, that settled in what is now Xinjiang in ancient times, and even today the Uyghurs of Xinjiang often have European features.
There are Romans who got captured at Carrhae (53 BC) and force-marched east - some say until they reached the outskirts of the Chinese empire. Then there's the Tocharians, a "white" European people, that settled in what is now Xinjiang in ancient times, and even today the Uyghurs of Xinjiang often have European features.
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Changed line(s) 33,34 (click to see context) from:
Right before she decides to go to the army, Mulan is seen sitting right at the foot of the statue of the Great Stone Dragon in the rain. It noticed her plight and plan, and being the greatest and most powerful of the guardians, decided to help her without anyone needing to awaken it first. So, the Great Stone Dragon followed Mulan in spirit form (or more fantastically, [[SuperEmpowering it somehow imbued her with its essence]]), which is why Mulan never died or was discovered before she had earned enough good favor with Shang to dodge execution, and why she was able to escape Shan Yu twice. This also explains why the statue of it crumbled so easily - with the guardian itself gone, that statue was just a useless hunk of rock waiting to fall.
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Right before she decides to go to the army, Mulan is seen sitting right at the foot of the statue of the Great Stone Dragon in the rain. It noticed her plight and plan, and being the greatest and most powerful of the guardians, decided to help her without anyone needing to awaken it first. So, the Great Stone Dragon followed Mulan in spirit form (or more fantastically, [[SuperEmpowering it somehow imbued her with its essence]]), which is why Mulan never died or was discovered before she had earned enough good favor with Shang to dodge execution, and why she was able to escape Shan Yu twice. This also explains why the statue of it crumbled so easily - with easily--with the guardian itself gone, that statue was just a useless hunk of rock waiting to fall.
Changed line(s) 40,42 (click to see context) from:
Given the initial strategies of General Li and that they ended up near the pass to Beijing, and that Cri-kee's initial draft for Mushu, it's possible the letter was true, just not sent by the general. The letter might have even gone like this: "My son, we're guarding the pass, but our scouts report that the Hun army is vastly more powerful than us. We need you to bring whatever men you can to the pass with cannons, so that we will have the capacity to defeat them, and come immediately." So though the letter was false, the words were in a sense true, and through the lie, Mushu helped save China. (His accident with the rocket later though would be better to not have happened.)
* Why not? Even if Sheng's small platoon had made it through the pass undiscovered, sooner or later the Hun army would have come down, meeting them at a place other than a choke point where the army could be destroyed by a single rocket. There would have been one small skirmish, not even worth mentioning in the history books, then on to the capital.
* Why not? Even if Sheng's small platoon had made it through the pass undiscovered, sooner or later the Hun army would have come down, meeting them at a place other than a choke point where the army could be destroyed by a single rocket. There would have been one small skirmish, not even worth mentioning in the history books, then on to the capital.
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Given the initial strategies of General Li and that they ended up near the pass to Beijing, and that Cri-kee's Cri-Kee's initial draft for Mushu, it's possible the letter was true, just not sent by the general. The letter might have even gone like this: "My son, we're guarding the pass, but our scouts report that the Hun army is vastly more powerful than us. We need you to bring whatever men you can to the pass with cannons, so that we will have the capacity to defeat them, and come immediately." So though the letter was false, the words were in a sense true, and through the lie, Mushu helped save China. (His accident with the rocket later though would be better to not have happened.)
* Why not? Even ifSheng's Shang's small platoon had made it through the pass undiscovered, sooner or later the Hun army would have come down, meeting them at a place other than a choke point where the army could be destroyed by a single rocket. There would have been one small skirmish, not even worth mentioning in the history books, then on to the capital.
* Why not? Even if
Changed line(s) 48,49 (click to see context) from:
She might've gone home, passed her matchmaker test fairly this time with her newly earned discipline and is betrothed to Shang. Shang begins to think his new bride looks awfully familiar...
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She might've gone home, passed her matchmaker test fairly this time with her newly earned discipline and is got betrothed to Shang. Shang begins to think his new bride looks awfully familiar...
Changed line(s) 54,55 (click to see context) from:
Think about it. When he is first mentioned, what's the situation? Chi Fu exclaimed, "No one can get past The Great Wall!", and when his name is mentioned, it's as if that alone explains how. Add to that the emperor suddenly deciding shit just got real, and you have the seeds of the theory. Now, add in Shan Yu's obsession with proving himself, not to the Chinese people, not to the Huns... he wants the Emperor to acknowledge him. He calls him old man. Regular Chinese soldiers recognize him on sight. Clearly the Emperor's bastard wanted to be acknowledged, and when he was denied, he threw a hissy fit in the form of blatant treason and joined the Huns to help them wage war on his father, ala Mordred.
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Think about it. When he is first mentioned, what's the situation? Chi Fu Chi-Fu exclaimed, "No one can get past The Great Wall!", and when his name is mentioned, it's as if that alone explains how. Add to that the emperor suddenly deciding shit just got real, and you have the seeds of the theory. Now, add in Shan Yu's obsession with proving himself, not to the Chinese people, not to the Huns... he wants the Emperor to acknowledge him. He calls him old man. Regular Chinese soldiers recognize him on sight. Clearly the Emperor's bastard wanted to be acknowledged, and when he was denied, he threw a hissy fit in the form of blatant treason and joined the Huns to help them wage war on his father, ala a la Mordred.
Changed line(s) 60,62 (click to see context) from:
This will make things weird between Mulan's ancestors and Shang's ancestor, knowing that because of a fling that happened waaaaay back when, the two new lovers are related.\\
By only a speck of blood from mllenia ago, so it's not realy incest. It's like that 'my great great great great grandad was your great great great great grandad's brother' sort of thing.
By only a speck of blood from mllenia ago, so it's not realy incest. It's like that 'my great great great great grandad was your great great great great grandad's brother' sort of thing.
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This will make things weird between Mulan's ancestors and Shang's ancestor, knowing that because of a fling that happened waaaaay back when, the two new lovers are related.\\
By But by only a speck of blood from mllenia millenia ago, so it's not realy incest. It's like that 'my "my great great great great grandad was your great great great great grandad's brother' brother" sort of thing.
By
Changed line(s) 66,68 (click to see context) from:
[[WMG: The falcon is [[BigBad Shan-yu's]] guardian.]]
In a deleted scene from the movie,it showed Shan-yu having the power to look through his falcon's eyes. It could mean that the falcon is meant to watch over him.
In a deleted scene from the movie,it showed Shan-yu having the power to look through his falcon's eyes. It could mean that the falcon is meant to watch over him.
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[[WMG: The falcon is [[BigBad Shan-yu's]] Shan Yu's]] guardian.]]
In a deleted scene from themovie,it showed Shan-yu having movie, it is shown that Shan Yu has the power to look through his falcon's eyes. It could mean that the falcon is meant to watch over him.
In a deleted scene from the
Changed line(s) 70 (click to see context) from:
Definitely smarter and braver than your average horse, and likely Mulan's father's old warhorse. The Guardians seem to be based on the creatures of the chinese zodiac (monkey and boar are shown). When Fa Zhou came home from the war with a bad limp, the Guardian that was supposed to have kept him safe from harm was punished by the ancestors and paid penance by staying in his mortal form. This explains why the horse was super intelligent, as well as being awfully sprightly for an ancient warhorse. It also explains why Mu Shu was a bit rude to him throughout the movie. There's more than one redemption story going on here.
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Definitely smarter and braver than your average horse, and likely Mulan's father's old warhorse. The Guardians seem to be based on the creatures of the chinese Chinese zodiac (monkey and boar are shown). When Fa Zhou came home from the war with a bad limp, the Guardian that was supposed to have kept him safe from harm was punished by the ancestors and paid penance by staying in his mortal form. This explains why the horse was super intelligent, as well as being awfully sprightly for an ancient warhorse. It also explains why Mu Shu Mushu was a bit rude to him throughout the movie. There's more than one redemption story going on here.
Changed line(s) 75,76 (click to see context) from:
[[WMG: Chi Fu is a eunuch.]]
It would explain why he's so effeminate, and why he's always so angry. Given how the vast majority of the emperor's male servants would have been eunuchs (if we're actually [[AnachronismStew going for historical accuracy]], anyway)... Not only does this theory explain a lot about Chi Fu, it has basis in fact, too!
It would explain why he's so effeminate, and why he's always so angry. Given how the vast majority of the emperor's male servants would have been eunuchs (if we're actually [[AnachronismStew going for historical accuracy]], anyway)... Not only does this theory explain a lot about Chi Fu, it has basis in fact, too!
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[[WMG: Chi Fu Chi-Fu is a eunuch.]]
It would explain why he's so effeminate, and why he's always so angry. Given how the vast majority of the emperor's male servants would have been eunuchs (if we're actually [[AnachronismStew going for historical accuracy]], anyway)... Not only does this theory explain a lot aboutChi Fu, Chi-Fu, it has basis in fact, too!
It would explain why he's so effeminate, and why he's always so angry. Given how the vast majority of the emperor's male servants would have been eunuchs (if we're actually [[AnachronismStew going for historical accuracy]], anyway)... Not only does this theory explain a lot about
Changed line(s) 81,83 (click to see context) from:
Mushu is not trying to insult anybody when he calls Khan a cow; he truly does see Khan as a cow. He also rides a panda of all things when delivering his forged message. It was not because he couldn't find a better ride, given that there were other horses on the camp that he could blackmail into helping him; it was because he saw the panda as an actual horse. He manages to identify correctly the cricket because, the cricket told him he was a "lucky cricket" from the start. He might also see himself as a dragon because, for him, it is his InformedSpecies. Given that he was released from his duties as a guardian, it's possible that the agnosia is part of his punishment.
** His joke about not being a lizard and "not doing that tongue thing *[[HypocriticalHumor does that tongue thing]]*" makes a lot of sense in this context; his only cue that he is a dragon and not a lizard is that lizards do "the tongue thing"; he might ACTUALLY be a lizard (except that he breathes fire) for all he knows.
** His joke about not being a lizard and "not doing that tongue thing *[[HypocriticalHumor does that tongue thing]]*" makes a lot of sense in this context; his only cue that he is a dragon and not a lizard is that lizards do "the tongue thing"; he might ACTUALLY be a lizard (except that he breathes fire) for all he knows.
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Mushu is not trying to insult anybody when he calls Khan a cow; he truly does see Khan as a cow. He also rides a panda of all things when delivering his forged message. It was not because he couldn't find a better ride, given that there were other horses on the camp that he could blackmail into helping him; it was because he saw the panda as an actual horse. He manages to identify correctly the cricket because, correctly because the cricket told him he was a "lucky cricket" from the start. He might also see himself as a dragon because, for him, it is his InformedSpecies. Given that he was released from his duties as a guardian, it's possible that the agnosia is part of his punishment.
** His joke about not being a lizard and "not doing that tongue thing*[[HypocriticalHumor ''[[HypocriticalHumor does that tongue thing]]*" thing]]''" makes a lot of sense in this context; his only cue that he is a dragon and not a lizard is that lizards do "the tongue thing"; he might ACTUALLY be a lizard (except that he breathes fire) for all he knows.
** His joke about not being a lizard and "not doing that tongue thing
Changed line(s) 85,86 (click to see context) from:
He belongs to the stream of one of those blacksmiths who use running water instead of a still trough in their forging. This caused him to breathe steam when he gained a corporeal form, and eventually fire, and made him hot-tempered like a tiger. This is why the ancestors don't accept him as a dragon- because to them, he isn't one, he's just a fire-breathing lizard-spirit who happened to come from a stream like a dragon.
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He belongs to the stream of one of those blacksmiths who use running water instead of a still trough in their forging. This caused him to breathe steam when he gained a corporeal form, and eventually fire, and made him hot-tempered like a tiger. This is why the ancestors don't accept him as a dragon- because dragon--because to them, he isn't one, he's just a fire-breathing lizard-spirit who happened to come from a stream like a dragon.
Changed line(s) 88,89 (click to see context) from:
It seems odd that Mulan is an only child, plus an only daughter, in a society where women are pressured to bear sons. Also, both her parents look considerably older than her, say 50 something while she's in her early 20's if that old. Possibly, Li had a lot of miscarriages or kids that got sick and died before she had Mulan. It's also quite likely that a young Mulan asked for a little brother (possibly too young to know how babies were made at the time) and her parents, rather than go through the heartbreak of another miscarriage, decided to get her a puppy instead. That would be the dog called Little Brother.
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It seems odd that Mulan is an only child, plus an only daughter, in a society where women are pressured to bear sons. Also, both her parents look considerably older than her, say 50 something 50-something while she's in her early 20's if that old. Possibly, Li had a lot of miscarriages or kids that got sick and died before she had Mulan. It's also quite likely that a young Mulan asked for a little brother (possibly too young to know how babies were made at the time) and her parents, rather than go through the heartbreak of another miscarriage, decided to get her a puppy instead. That would be the dog called Little Brother.
Changed line(s) 94,95 (click to see context) from:
When Mulan makes her decision to join the army, she is standing at the foot of the great stone dragon. When she was born the spirit of the guardian was reborn within her. Which is why Mushu couldn't wake him up- the spirit within the stone dragon was already gone.
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When Mulan makes her decision to join the army, she is standing at the foot of the great stone dragon. When she was born the spirit of the guardian was reborn within her. Which is why Mushu couldn't wake him up- the up--the spirit within the stone dragon was already gone.
Changed line(s) 100,101 (click to see context) from:
Recall the "I'll Make A Man Out Of You" sequence, where Shang brings in the weights that are so heavy they more or less immobilize everyone who puts them on. Notice that Chi-Fu is carrying the box containing them, and it only mildly troubles him. Chi-Fu could have won the war by himself had he actually given a shit, and he only acts the way he does in the movie because he wants to know what this strange feeling called "cowardice" feels like.
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Recall the "I'll Make A a Man Out Of of You" sequence, where Shang brings in the weights that are so heavy they more or less immobilize everyone who puts them on. Notice that Chi-Fu is carrying the box containing them, and it only mildly troubles him. Chi-Fu could have won the war by himself had he actually given a shit, and he only acts the way he does in the movie because he wants to know what this strange feeling called "cowardice" feels like.
Changed line(s) 103,104 (click to see context) from:
Take a good look at Shan-Yu...where else could Lucas possibly have gotten the idea for Darth Maul's/Sidious'/Vader's Sith eyes?
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Take a good look at Shan-Yu...Shan Yu... where else could Lucas possibly have gotten the idea for Darth Maul's/Sidious'/Vader's Sith eyes?
Changed line(s) 106,108 (click to see context) from:
If the meeting with the matchmaker had gone well chances are Mulan would have been too busy, by hook or crook, with her wedding arrangements. Only through the cricket's interventions she was in the right place and time to overhear the military call, to decide to go in her father's place, and thus set the movie proper in action. Her momentary bad luck, led to future fortune.
[[WMG: [[Disney/{{Aladdin}} A foreign prince and princess]] was spotted at the roof of the palace right after Shan-yu was killed.]]
[[WMG: [[Disney/{{Aladdin}} A foreign prince and princess]] was spotted at the roof of the palace right after Shan-yu was killed.]]
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If the meeting with the matchmaker had gone well chances are Mulan would have been too busy, by hook or crook, with her wedding arrangements. Only through the cricket's interventions she was in the right place and time to overhear the military call, to decide to go in her father's place, and thus set the movie proper in action. Her momentary bad luck, luck led to future fortune.
[[WMG: [[Disney/{{Aladdin}} A foreign prince and princess]]was were spotted at the roof of the palace right after Shan-yu Shan Yu was killed.]]
[[WMG: [[Disney/{{Aladdin}} A foreign prince and princess]]
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[[WMG: Mulan is not trans at all, just quirky and awkward.]]
Mulan was struggling to fit in with the guys, which wouldn't have happened if she was trans; her abnormal brain structure would have fit in like a puzzle piece, but she's a fish-out-of-water for a fair bit longer. There's nothing suggesting she feels any sort of kinship beyond friendship and commendatory with her fellow solders.
As for the first two songs, a girl not liking dresses and makeup does not make her trans, and it seemed more about the roughness (the cold bath, tight clothes, hair being pulled, not even the girly girls like that) that irked her in "Honer To Us All', and when all was said and done, she seemed mildly excited at best, resigned at worst, but not all-together unhappy. This and 'Reflection' are along the same line; Mulan is a quirky (not necessarily unfeminine) girl, and in Ancient China's restrictive society, Mulan couldn't even imagine being anything but a 'perfect porcelain doll' like the others, because there was no frame of reference for a girl to be anything else. In Reflection, she can barley articulate what she wants, only that the girl she sees in the water is like a stranger to her. She's not necessarily uncomfortable with her body, she just generally feels like an outsider.
The real moment of truth is actually during the [[CrowningMusicOfAwesome incredibly underrated score]] of 'Short Hair'. Mulan, who was previously going only by what others said, is making a choice for herself and running off to the war. In the camp, Mulan is every bit as awkward as she was with the mach maker, only on a different plain. The difference is that she couldn't just go home after all the worry she's probably caused her family, she had to stick it out as long as she could. It's got nothing to do with 'who she really is', it's more to do with her basically being forced to stick with something until she finally found her niche.
Mulan was struggling to fit in with the guys, which wouldn't have happened if she was trans; her abnormal brain structure would have fit in like a puzzle piece, but she's a fish-out-of-water for a fair bit longer. There's nothing suggesting she feels any sort of kinship beyond friendship and commendatory with her fellow solders.
As for the first two songs, a girl not liking dresses and makeup does not make her trans, and it seemed more about the roughness (the cold bath, tight clothes, hair being pulled, not even the girly girls like that) that irked her in "Honer To Us All', and when all was said and done, she seemed mildly excited at best, resigned at worst, but not all-together unhappy. This and 'Reflection' are along the same line; Mulan is a quirky (not necessarily unfeminine) girl, and in Ancient China's restrictive society, Mulan couldn't even imagine being anything but a 'perfect porcelain doll' like the others, because there was no frame of reference for a girl to be anything else. In Reflection, she can barley articulate what she wants, only that the girl she sees in the water is like a stranger to her. She's not necessarily uncomfortable with her body, she just generally feels like an outsider.
The real moment of truth is actually during the [[CrowningMusicOfAwesome incredibly underrated score]] of 'Short Hair'. Mulan, who was previously going only by what others said, is making a choice for herself and running off to the war. In the camp, Mulan is every bit as awkward as she was with the mach maker, only on a different plain. The difference is that she couldn't just go home after all the worry she's probably caused her family, she had to stick it out as long as she could. It's got nothing to do with 'who she really is', it's more to do with her basically being forced to stick with something until she finally found her niche.
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"Freezed"??
Changed line(s) 107 (click to see context) from:
* Khan would have been either sold into slavery or worse, slaughtered. Mushu would have left in disgrace, too ashamed to return to the Fa family. Cri-Kee would have had a HeroicBSOD and would have freezed to death in the mountain snow.
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* Khan would have been either sold into slavery or worse, slaughtered. Mushu would have left in disgrace, too ashamed to return to the Fa family. Cri-Kee would have had a HeroicBSOD and would have freezed frozen to death in the mountain snow.
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Spelling/grammar
Changed line(s) 107 (click to see context) from:
* Khan would have been either sold into slavery or worse, slaughtered. Mushu would have left in disgraced, too ashamed to return to the Fa family. Cricket would have had a HeroicBSOD and freeze to death in the mountain snow.
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* Khan would have been either sold into slavery or worse, slaughtered. Mushu would have left in disgraced, disgrace, too ashamed to return to the Fa family. Cricket Cri-Kee would have had a HeroicBSOD and freeze would have freezed to death in the mountain snow.
Changed line(s) 109,110 (click to see context) from:
* Shan Yu and the Huns would have killed the Emperor, proclaimed himself the new emperor and thus conquer all of China.
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* Shan Yu and the Huns would have killed the Emperor, proclaimed himself Shan Yu the new emperor and thus conquer would have conquered all of China.
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I started
Changed line(s) 106,112 (click to see context) from:
[[WMG: If Mulan would have been executed]]
If Mulan would have been executed
* Khan would have been either sold into slavery or worse, slaughtered.
* Chi-Fu and the army would have gone after the Fa Family and killed them all, leaving no survivors, and they would have burned the farm down.
* Chi-Fu and the army would have discovered Mushu and Cri-kee, and they would have captured Mushu, and squashed Cri-kee.
* Shan Yu and the Huns would have killed the emperor and conquered all of China.
If Mulan would have been executed
* Khan would have been either sold into slavery or worse, slaughtered.
* Chi-Fu and the army would have gone after the Fa Family and killed them all, leaving no survivors, and they would have burned the farm down.
* Chi-Fu and the army would have discovered Mushu and Cri-kee, and they would have captured Mushu, and squashed Cri-kee.
* Shan Yu and the Huns would have killed the emperor and conquered all of China.
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[[WMG: If Mulan would have been was executed]]
If Mulan would have been executed
* Khan would have been either sold into slavery or worse, slaughtered.
* Chi-Fuslaughtered. Mushu would have left in disgraced, too ashamed to return to the Fa family. Cricket would have had a HeroicBSOD and freeze to death in the mountain snow.
*Chi-Fu and the rest of the Chinese army would havegone after the Fa Family and been killed them all, leaving no survivors, and they would have burned attempting to rescue the farm down.
* Chi-Fu and the army would have discovered Mushu and Cri-kee, and they would have captured Mushu, and squashed Cri-kee.
Emperor.
* Shan Yu and the Huns would have killed the Emperor, proclaimed himself the new emperor andconquered thus conquer all of China.
* Chi-Fu
*Chi-Fu and the rest of the Chinese army would have
* Chi-Fu and the army would have discovered Mushu and Cri-kee, and they would have captured Mushu, and squashed Cri-kee.
* Shan Yu and the Huns would have killed the Emperor, proclaimed himself the new emperor and
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Changed line(s) 70 (click to see context) from:
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** Related, this might mean that the "girl back home who loves (him) like no other" actually ''is'' his mother.
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Spelling/grammar
Changed line(s) 109 (click to see context) from:
* Chi-Fu and the army would have discovered Mushu and Cri-kee, and they would have captured Mushu, and squashed Cri-ki.
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* Chi-Fu and the army would have discovered Mushu and Cri-kee, and they would have captured Mushu, and squashed Cri-ki.Cri-kee.
Changed line(s) 113 (click to see context) from:
If the Europeans where in the film, one of them would havled been shocked after Mulan was exposed, and tell his comrades about this. They would try to rescue Mulan, and the song Savages would halved been used. Like in Pocahontas.
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If the there were Europeans where in the film, one of them would havled have been shocked after Mulan was exposed, and would tell his comrades about this. They would try to rescue Mulan, and the song Savages "Savages", from Pocahontas, would halved have been used. Like in Pocahontas.used.
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Changed line(s) 105,119 (click to see context) from:
[[WMG: If Mulan was Executed]]
If Mulan Was Executed,
1. Khan would halved been ether sold to slavery or worse, slaughtered.
2. Chi-Fu and the Army would halved gone after the Fa Family and killed them all leaving no survivors. And they would halved burned the farm down.
3. Chi-Fu and the army would halved discovered Mushu and Cri-ki, and they would captured Mushu, and squashed Cri-ki.
4. Shan Yu, and the Huns would halved killed the emperor and conquered all of China.
If Mulan Was Executed,
1. Khan would halved been ether sold to slavery or worse, slaughtered.
2. Chi-Fu and the Army would halved gone after the Fa Family and killed them all leaving no survivors. And they would halved burned the farm down.
3. Chi-Fu and the army would halved discovered Mushu and Cri-ki, and they would captured Mushu, and squashed Cri-ki.
4. Shan Yu, and the Huns would halved killed the emperor and conquered all of China.
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[[WMG: If Mulan was Executed]]
would have been executed]]
If MulanWas Executed,
1.would have been executed
* Khan wouldhalved have been ether either sold to into slavery or worse, slaughtered.
2.slaughtered.
* Chi-Fu and theArmy army would halved have gone after the Fa Family and killed them all all, leaving no survivors. And survivors, and they would halved have burned the farm down.
3.down.
* Chi-Fu and the army wouldhalved have discovered Mushu and Cri-ki, Cri-kee, and they would have captured Mushu, and squashed Cri-ki.
4.Cri-ki.
* ShanYu, Yu and the Huns would halved have killed the emperor and conquered all of China.
China.
If Mulan
1.
* Khan would
2.
* Chi-Fu and the
3.
* Chi-Fu and the army would
4.
* Shan
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[[WMG: If Mulan was Executed]]
If Mulan Was Executed,
1. Khan would halved been ether sold to slavery or worse, slaughtered.
2. Chi-Fu and the Army would halved gone after the Fa Family and killed them all leaving no survivors. And they would halved burned the farm down.
3. Chi-Fu and the army would halved discovered Mushu and Cri-ki, and they would captured Mushu, and squashed Cri-ki.
4. Shan Yu, and the Huns would halved killed the emperor and conquered all of China.
[[WMG: If there were Europeans in the film]]
If the Europeans where in the film, one of them would havled been shocked after Mulan was exposed, and tell his comrades about this. They would try to rescue Mulan, and the song Savages would halved been used. Like in Pocahontas.
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[[WMG: Had he gone instead of Mulan, Fa Zhou would not have been sent to the war.]]
He's a distinguished veteran with an injury that prevents him from being able to fight. He's practically tailor-made to train new recruits, either alongside Shang or simply taking over his role entirely.
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[[WMG: [[Disney/{{Aladdin}} A foreign prince and princess]] was spotted at the roof of the palace after Shan-yu was killed.]]
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[[WMG: [[Disney/{{Aladdin}} A foreign prince and princess]] was spotted at the roof of the palace right after Shan-yu was killed.]]
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[[WMG: [[Disney/{{Aladdin}} A foreign prince and princess]] was spotted at the roof of the palace after Shan-yu was killed.]]
How they got there was a mystery, considering all they carried was a rug.
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* Why not? Even if Sheng's small platoon had made it through the pass undiscovered, sooner or later the Hun army would have come down, meeting them at a place other than a choke point where the army could be destroyed by a single rocket. There would have been one small skirmish, not even worth mentioning in the history books, then on to the capital.
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* Thus, Mulan is a exploration of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity. We're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
** Listen to the lyrics in "Reflection". She sings of rejecting her gentle lamb self and how she feels she isn't meant to "play the part" of the bride. Keep in mind all this was before the conscription notices were passed out.
** Listen to the lyrics in "Reflection". She sings of rejecting her gentle lamb self and how she feels she isn't meant to "play the part" of the bride. Keep in mind all this was before the conscription notices were passed out.
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Thus, Mulan is a exploration of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity. We're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender
**
Listen to the lyrics in "Reflection". She sings of rejecting her gentle lamb self and how she feels she isn't meant to "play the part" of the bride. Keep in mind all this was before the conscription notices were passed out.
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** That would also explain why the ancestor didn't act suspicious about Mushu's PaperThinDisguise when he was holding up the statue's head and pretending he was the Great Stone Dragon.
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Related to the above. She might've gone home, passed her matchmaker test fairly this time with her newly earned discipline and is betrothed to Shang. Shang begins to think his new bride looks awfully familiar...
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No guesses why.
* Or they'll nane their first child Ping regardless of the sex; it ''is'' a fairly androgynous name, depending on the characters used.
* Or they'll nane their first child Ping regardless of the sex; it ''is'' a fairly androgynous name, depending on the characters used.
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How else would it have survived?
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How else would it have survived?
survived? It's also how Shan Yu was able to pop out of the snow, "like a daisy!"
Changed line(s) 61,62 (click to see context) from:
* That makes perfect sense. Warhorses required a great deal of time and effort to train so they wouldn't panic under the conditions on a battlefield, and could be very expensive as a result. Considering how badly Fa Zhou was injured in the last war, they would probably not buy a new warhorse to replace the old one when it died, as there would be no real need. Then when you compare how long horses live on average and when the last war took place, this idea makes the most sense.
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* That makes perfect sense. Warhorses Additionally, warhorses required a great deal of time and effort to train so they wouldn't panic under the conditions on a battlefield, and could be very expensive as a result. Considering how badly Fa Zhou was injured in the last war, they would probably not buy a new warhorse to replace the old one when it died, as there would be no real need. Then when you compare how long horses live on average and when the last war took place, this idea makes the most sense.
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It seems odd that Mulan is an only child, plus an only daughter, in a society where women are pressured to bear sons. Also, both her parents look considerably older than her, I'd say 50 something while she's in her early 20's if that old. Possibly, Li had a lot of miscarriages or kids that got sick and died before she had Mulan. It's also quite likely that a young Mulan asked for a little brother (possibly too young to know how babies were made at the time) and her parents, rather than go through the heartbreak of another miscarriage, decided to get her a puppy instead. That would be the dog called Little Brother.
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It seems odd that Mulan is an only child, plus an only daughter, in a society where women are pressured to bear sons. Also, both her parents look considerably older than her, I'd say 50 something while she's in her early 20's if that old. Possibly, Li had a lot of miscarriages or kids that got sick and died before she had Mulan. It's also quite likely that a young Mulan asked for a little brother (possibly too young to know how babies were made at the time) and her parents, rather than go through the heartbreak of another miscarriage, decided to get her a puppy instead. That would be the dog called Little Brother.
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[[WMG: The "girl back home who's not like any other"? [[DotingParent Chi-Fu's]] [[MilitaryBrat daughter]].]]
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[[WMG: The "girl back home who's not like any other"? [[DotingParent Chi-Fu's]] [[MilitaryBrat Chi-Fu's daughter]].]]
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Recall the "I'll Make A Man Out Of You" sequence, where Shang brings in the weights that are so heavy they more or less immobilize everyone who puts them on. Notice that Chi-Fu is carrying the box containing them, and it only mildly troubles him. Calling it now, Chi-Fu could have won the war by himself had he actually given a shit, and he only acts the way he does in the movie because he wants to know what this strange feeling called "cowardice" feels like.
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Recall the "I'll Make A Man Out Of You" sequence, where Shang brings in the weights that are so heavy they more or less immobilize everyone who puts them on. Notice that Chi-Fu is carrying the box containing them, and it only mildly troubles him. Calling it now, Chi-Fu could have won the war by himself had he actually given a shit, and he only acts the way he does in the movie because he wants to know what this strange feeling called "cowardice" feels like.
Changed line(s) 92,95 (click to see context) from:
Seriously. Take a good look at Shan-Yu...where else could Lucas possibly have gotten the idea for Darth Maul's/Sidious'/Vader's Sith eyes?
[[WMG: The Cricket actually was lucky.]]
If the meeting with the matchmaker had gone well chances are Mulan would have been too busy, by hook or crook, with her wedding arrangements. Only through the crickets interventions she was in the right place and time to overhear the military call, to decide to go in her fathers place, and thus set the movie proper in action. Her momentary bad luck, led to future fortune.
[[WMG: The Cricket actually was lucky.]]
If the meeting with the matchmaker had gone well chances are Mulan would have been too busy, by hook or crook, with her wedding arrangements. Only through the crickets interventions she was in the right place and time to overhear the military call, to decide to go in her fathers place, and thus set the movie proper in action. Her momentary bad luck, led to future fortune.
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[[WMG: The Cricket
If the meeting with the matchmaker had gone well chances are Mulan would have been too busy, by hook or crook, with her wedding arrangements. Only through the
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But not for the reasons you're probably thinking. If the meeting with the matchmaker had gone well chances are Mulan would have been too busy, by hook or crook, with her wedding arrangements. Only through the crickets interventions she was in the right place and time to overhear the military call, to decide to go in her fathers place, and thus set the movie proper in action. her momentary bad luck, led to future fortune.
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[[WMG: The Cricket actually was lucky.]]
But not for the reasons you're probably thinking. If the meeting with the matchmaker had gone well chances are Mulan would have been too busy, by hook or crook, with her wedding arrangements. Only through the crickets interventions she was in the right place and time to overhear the military call, to decide to go in her fathers place, and thus set the movie proper in action. her momentary bad luck, led to future fortune.
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Changed line(s) 51,53 (click to see context) from:
By only a speck of blood from mllenia ago, so it's not realy incest.
** You mean the whole 'my great great great great grandad was your great great great great grandad's brother' sort of thing?
** You mean the whole 'my great great great great grandad was your great great great great grandad's brother' sort of thing?
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By only a speck of blood from mllenia ago, so it's not realy incest.
** You mean the wholeincest. It's like that 'my great great great great grandad was your great great great great grandad's brother' sort of thing?
thing.
** You mean the whole
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It would explain why he's so effeminate, and why he's always so angry.
* Well... Given how the vast majority of the emperor's male servants would have been eunuchs (if we're actually [[AnachronismStew going for historical accuracy]], anyway)... Not only does this theory explain a lot about Chi Fu, it has basis in fact, too!
* Well... Given how the vast majority of the emperor's male servants would have been eunuchs (if we're actually [[AnachronismStew going for historical accuracy]], anyway)... Not only does this theory explain a lot about Chi Fu, it has basis in fact, too!
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It would explain why he's so effeminate, and why he's always so angry.
* Well...angry. Given how the vast majority of the emperor's male servants would have been eunuchs (if we're actually [[AnachronismStew going for historical accuracy]], anyway)... Not only does this theory explain a lot about Chi Fu, it has basis in fact, too!
* Well...
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** Listen to the lyrics in "Reflection". She sings of rejecting her gentle lamb self and how she feels she isn't meant to "play the part" of the bride. Keep in mind all this was before the conscription notices were passed out.
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[[WMG: George Lucas is a fan.]]
Seriously. Take a good look at Shan-Yu...where else could Lucas possibly have gotten the idea for Darth Maul's/Sidious'/Vader's Sith eyes?
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[[WMG: Shang was angry at Mulan after TheReveal not because of honor, but because he is gay.]]
"Ping" just saved his life. There had to be something going on besides "honor" that would make him so pissy about Ping turning out to be a girl. They had a few good moments before then, and it's not unreasonable to speculate that he began to respect Ping for "his" accomplishments during training (not to mention [[AttractiveBentGender Ping's supposedly good looks]]). So Ping turning out to be a girl [[IncompatibleOrientation broke his heart]]. He was [[LoveMakesYouDumb unable to think rationally]] for some time after that, explaining his [[LawfulStupid strange behavior]] [[CassandraTruth afterwards]]. At the end he finally got over his heartbreak over "Ping" and accepted Mulan's true identity.
* Think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
* He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
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[[WMG: Shang was angry at Mulan after TheReveal not because of honor, but because he is gay.]]
"Ping" just saved his life. There had to be something going on besides "honor" that would make him so pissy about Ping turning out to be a girl. They had a few good moments before then, and it's not unreasonable to speculate that he began to respect Ping for "his" accomplishments during training (not to mention [[AttractiveBentGender Ping's supposedly good looks]]). So Ping turning out to be a girl [[IncompatibleOrientation broke his heart]]. He was [[LoveMakesYouDumb unable to think rationally]] for some time after that, explaining his [[LawfulStupid strange behavior]] [[CassandraTruth afterwards]]. At the end he finally got over his heartbreak over "Ping" and accepted Mulan's true identity.
* Think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
* He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
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"Ping" just saved his
* Think
** This is shown to be false by the sequel.
** [[FridgeBrilliance ...what if you don't count Disney sequels as canon?]] And although this troper hates to defend that atrocity of a sequel, even if Shang ''was'' gay, it only takes you to believe in the "Mulan is transgender" theory for the relationship to work.
** This makes so much sense. Also think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
*** Trope names =/= trope meanings.
*** For those just joining us, PlatonicLifePartners was once "The Straight Will And Grace".
** This doesn't quite fit with how twitterpated he's acting at the end. Seems he's plenty into Mulan as a girl.
** Well, there's plenty going on to justify Shang's anger - the deception, as well as the difficult choice of whether to uphold the law. Not to mention that he had very recently suffered a serious personal loss along with the horror of the Chinese army's defeat. Emotions were running pretty high. This doesn't necessarily undermine the theory on principle, though he doesn't necessarily have to be gay to be attracted to "Ping." He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
** Maybe he was straight, got all hard for ping (if only because of random female pharemone showing up around him) , and when he finally began accpeting he may be a little gay, had a wet Ping involved dream, liked it, decided he may be a little gay, then found out Ping is a woman ANDOHMYFUCK AM I GAYANYWAY?!?!?!?! Moment. Immediatly after his dad died.
** Maybe Shang IS gay, but has an IfItsYouItsOkay thing when he finds out Mulan is a woman.
** Shang is Mulansexual!
** I always saw it that he was not gay, per say, but that he DID develop feelings for Ping, which he tried to deny to himself. When he discovered Mulan was indeed a girl, that made his feelings traditionally "acceptable" (not necessarily in real ancient China but at least in the world of this movie, where the other soldiers sang about the women they wanted to cook for them and fawn over them) but would also make him admit he fell in love with someone he thought was a man. So he had anger, which he unfairly directed at Mulan, for his complicated feelings. Reminded me of this line from NeverBeenKissed [[spoiler: when Josie expects Rob to happily surprised by her age but instead he is angry: "What, you were hoping . . . that I´d be happy? Why? Because it turns out I was allowed to be attracted to you?" ]]
** Alternatively being with a girl who ran away to join the army simply has more consequences than being with a male soldier.
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She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it. When she goes into the army as a man, and with being a man in ancient China she finally has this sort of freedom to express who she really is. , It doesn't even drastically change her song "Reflection." It just fits even more so.
* Thus, Mulan is a exploration of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity. We're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
* Thus, Mulan is a exploration of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity. We're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
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Come on, it makes so much sense! Especially if combined with the theory above.
* Although she likes dressing up at the beginning of the film.
** Transgender people can be transvestites. (That is, someone who doesn't identify with their physical sex can still find it pleasurable to dress as it.)
** She didn't seem to like it much either.
*** Yeah, isn't that part of the point of the scene? She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Which, FTM or not, is why all the pretty Mulan merchandise with her all dolled up is a huge wall banger for this troper.
**** Though if you think about it, she's really nervous and happy with the thought of "I'll finally please my family." Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it.When Personally, I've always seen her as androgynous both appearance and gender-wise because she doesn't fully fit into the norm she's supposed to, but when she goes into the army as a man, and with being a man in ancient China she finally has this sort of freedom to express who she really is. , It Honestly, saying she's FTM isn't impossible at all. And in saying that, it doesn't even drastically change her song "Reflection." It just fits even more so.
* Thus, Mulan **** My take: She's happy that she looks beautiful and is nicely dressed, as anyone would, but she doesn't like the uncomfortable restrictions of the clothes, and she ultimately feels that playing the sweet, delicate porcelain doll is no life for her. Nothing seems unfeminine to me on any count.
** That would certainly put aexploration different twist on "When Will My Reflection Show Who I Am Inside?"
*** This troper knows plenty of other trans people of the same age who like the song for that reason. Or find it absolutely effing heartbreaking. Usually both.
**** I can confirm that, and the 'both' part. Though I usually sing it to myself with all the pronouns flipped.
*** Always thought that's what the song was about, still hard to watch that part without feeling sad.
* In ancient China?
** Trans people have existed all throughout time. It's not that hard to believe one could exist in ancient China.
** A person can be transgender without having gender-reassignment surgery.
* You do realize that a girl can be a GenkiGirl[=/=]{{Tomboy}} and straight, right?
** The term here is cisgender, not straight.
** Right. We're talking about gender here, ''not'' sexuality.
* The only problem with this theory is that implies a certain level of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity.We're This being said, it's a definite possibility that could be explored, since we're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
* Although she likes dressing up at the beginning of the film.
** Transgender people can be transvestites. (That is, someone who doesn't identify with their physical sex can still find it pleasurable to dress as it.)
** She didn't seem to like it much either.
*** Yeah, isn't that part of the point of the scene? She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Which, FTM or not, is why all the pretty Mulan merchandise with her all dolled up is a huge wall banger for this troper.
**** Though if you think about it, she's really nervous and happy with the thought of "I'll finally please my family." Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it.
** That would certainly put a
*** This troper knows plenty of other trans people of the same age who like the song for that reason. Or find it absolutely effing heartbreaking. Usually both.
**** I can confirm that, and the 'both' part. Though I usually sing it to myself with all the pronouns flipped.
*** Always thought that's what the song was about, still hard to watch that part without feeling sad.
* In ancient China?
** Trans people have existed all throughout time. It's not that hard to believe one could exist in ancient China.
** A person can be transgender without having gender-reassignment surgery.
* You do realize that a girl can be a GenkiGirl[=/=]{{Tomboy}} and straight, right?
** The term here is cisgender, not straight.
** Right. We're talking about gender here, ''not'' sexuality.
* The only problem with this theory is that implies a certain level of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity.
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[[WMG: Shang was angry at Mulan after TheReveal not because of honor, but because he is gay.]]
"Ping" just saved his life. There had to be something going on besides "honor" that would make him so pissy about Ping turning out to be a girl. They had a few good moments before then, and it's not unreasonable to speculate that he began to respect Ping for "his" accomplishments during training (not to mention [[AttractiveBentGender Ping's supposedly good looks]]). So Ping turning out to be a girl [[IncompatibleOrientation broke his heart]]. He was [[LoveMakesYouDumb unable to think rationally]] for some time after that, explaining his [[LawfulStupid strange behavior]] [[CassandraTruth afterwards]]. At the end he finally got over his heartbreak over "Ping" and accepted Mulan's true identity.
* Think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
* He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
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[[WMG: Shang was angry at Mulan after TheReveal not because of honor, but because he is gay.]]
"Ping" just saved his life. There had to be something going on besides "honor" that would make him so pissy about Ping turning out to be a girl. They had a few good moments before then, and it's not unreasonable to speculate that he began to respect Ping for "his" accomplishments during training (not to mention [[AttractiveBentGender Ping's supposedly good looks]]). So Ping turning out to be a girl [[IncompatibleOrientation broke his heart]]. He was [[LoveMakesYouDumb unable to think rationally]] for some time after that, explaining his [[LawfulStupid strange behavior]] [[CassandraTruth afterwards]]. At the end he finally got over his heartbreak over "Ping" and accepted Mulan's true identity.
* Think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
* He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
to:
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"Ping" just saved his
* Think
** This is shown to be false by the sequel.
** [[FridgeBrilliance ...what if you don't count Disney sequels as canon?]] And although this troper hates to defend that atrocity of a sequel, even if Shang ''was'' gay, it only takes you to believe in the "Mulan is transgender" theory for the relationship to work.
** This makes so much sense. Also think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
*** Trope names =/= trope meanings.
*** For those just joining us, PlatonicLifePartners was once "The Straight Will And Grace".
** This doesn't quite fit with how twitterpated he's acting at the end. Seems he's plenty into Mulan as a girl.
** Well, there's plenty going on to justify Shang's anger - the deception, as well as the difficult choice of whether to uphold the law. Not to mention that he had very recently suffered a serious personal loss along with the horror of the Chinese army's defeat. Emotions were running pretty high. This doesn't necessarily undermine the theory on principle, though he doesn't necessarily have to be gay to be attracted to "Ping." He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
** Maybe he was straight, got all hard for ping (if only because of random female pharemone showing up around him) , and when he finally began accpeting he may be a little gay, had a wet Ping involved dream, liked it, decided he may be a little gay, then found out Ping is a woman ANDOHMYFUCK AM I GAYANYWAY?!?!?!?! Moment. Immediatly after his dad died.
** Maybe Shang IS gay, but has an IfItsYouItsOkay thing when he finds out Mulan is a woman.
** Shang is Mulansexual!
** I always saw it that he was not gay, per say, but that he DID develop feelings for Ping, which he tried to deny to himself. When he discovered Mulan was indeed a girl, that made his feelings traditionally "acceptable" (not necessarily in real ancient China but at least in the world of this movie, where the other soldiers sang about the women they wanted to cook for them and fawn over them) but would also make him admit he fell in love with someone he thought was a man. So he had anger, which he unfairly directed at Mulan, for his complicated feelings. Reminded me of this line from NeverBeenKissed [[spoiler: when Josie expects Rob to happily surprised by her age but instead he is angry: "What, you were hoping . . . that I´d be happy? Why? Because it turns out I was allowed to be attracted to you?" ]]
** Alternatively being with a girl who ran away to join the army simply has more consequences than being with a male soldier.
Changed line(s) 14,16 (click to see context) from:
She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it. When she goes into the army as a man, and with being a man in ancient China she finally has this sort of freedom to express who she really is. , It doesn't even drastically change her song "Reflection." It just fits even more so.
* Thus, Mulan is a exploration of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity. We're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
* Thus, Mulan is a exploration of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity. We're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
to:
Come on, it makes so much sense! Especially if combined with the theory above.
* Although she likes dressing up at the beginning of the film.
** Transgender people can be transvestites. (That is, someone who doesn't identify with their physical sex can still find it pleasurable to dress as it.)
** She didn't seem to like it much either.
*** Yeah, isn't that part of the point of the scene? She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Which, FTM or not, is why all the pretty Mulan merchandise with her all dolled up is a huge wall banger for this troper.
**** Though if you think about it, she's really nervous and happy with the thought of "I'll finally please my family." Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it.When Personally, I've always seen her as androgynous both appearance and gender-wise because she doesn't fully fit into the norm she's supposed to, but when she goes into the army as a man, and with being a man in ancient China she finally has this sort of freedom to express who she really is. , It Honestly, saying she's FTM isn't impossible at all. And in saying that, it doesn't even drastically change her song "Reflection." It just fits even more so.
* Thus, Mulan **** My take: She's happy that she looks beautiful and is nicely dressed, as anyone would, but she doesn't like the uncomfortable restrictions of the clothes, and she ultimately feels that playing the sweet, delicate porcelain doll is no life for her. Nothing seems unfeminine to me on any count.
** That would certainly put aexploration different twist on "When Will My Reflection Show Who I Am Inside?"
*** This troper knows plenty of other trans people of the same age who like the song for that reason. Or find it absolutely effing heartbreaking. Usually both.
**** I can confirm that, and the 'both' part. Though I usually sing it to myself with all the pronouns flipped.
*** Always thought that's what the song was about, still hard to watch that part without feeling sad.
* In ancient China?
** Trans people have existed all throughout time. It's not that hard to believe one could exist in ancient China.
** A person can be transgender without having gender-reassignment surgery.
* You do realize that a girl can be a GenkiGirl[=/=]{{Tomboy}} and straight, right?
** The term here is cisgender, not straight.
** Right. We're talking about gender here, ''not'' sexuality.
* The only problem with this theory is that implies a certain level of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity.We're This being said, it's a definite possibility that could be explored, since we're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
* Although she likes dressing up at the beginning of the film.
** Transgender people can be transvestites. (That is, someone who doesn't identify with their physical sex can still find it pleasurable to dress as it.)
** She didn't seem to like it much either.
*** Yeah, isn't that part of the point of the scene? She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Which, FTM or not, is why all the pretty Mulan merchandise with her all dolled up is a huge wall banger for this troper.
**** Though if you think about it, she's really nervous and happy with the thought of "I'll finally please my family." Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it.
** That would certainly put a
*** This troper knows plenty of other trans people of the same age who like the song for that reason. Or find it absolutely effing heartbreaking. Usually both.
**** I can confirm that, and the 'both' part. Though I usually sing it to myself with all the pronouns flipped.
*** Always thought that's what the song was about, still hard to watch that part without feeling sad.
* In ancient China?
** Trans people have existed all throughout time. It's not that hard to believe one could exist in ancient China.
** A person can be transgender without having gender-reassignment surgery.
* You do realize that a girl can be a GenkiGirl[=/=]{{Tomboy}} and straight, right?
** The term here is cisgender, not straight.
** Right. We're talking about gender here, ''not'' sexuality.
* The only problem with this theory is that implies a certain level of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity.
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Changed line(s) 1,12 (click to see context) from:
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[[WMG: Shang was angry at Mulan after TheReveal not because of honor, but because he is gay.]]
"Ping" just saved his life. There had to be something going on besides "honor" that would make him so pissy about Ping turning out to be a girl. They had a few good moments before then, and it's not unreasonable to speculate that he began to respect Ping for "his" accomplishments during training (not to mention [[AttractiveBentGender Ping's supposedly good looks]]). So Ping turning out to be a girl [[IncompatibleOrientation broke his heart]]. He was [[LoveMakesYouDumb unable to think rationally]] for some time after that, explaining his [[LawfulStupid strange behavior]] [[CassandraTruth afterwards]]. At the end he finally got over his heartbreak over "Ping" and accepted Mulan's true identity.
* Think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
* He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
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[[WMG: Shang was angry at Mulan after TheReveal not because of honor, but because he is gay.]]
"Ping" just saved his life. There had to be something going on besides "honor" that would make him so pissy about Ping turning out to be a girl. They had a few good moments before then, and it's not unreasonable to speculate that he began to respect Ping for "his" accomplishments during training (not to mention [[AttractiveBentGender Ping's supposedly good looks]]). So Ping turning out to be a girl [[IncompatibleOrientation broke his heart]]. He was [[LoveMakesYouDumb unable to think rationally]] for some time after that, explaining his [[LawfulStupid strange behavior]] [[CassandraTruth afterwards]]. At the end he finally got over his heartbreak over "Ping" and accepted Mulan's true identity.
* Think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
* He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
to:
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"Ping" just saved his
* Think
** This is shown to be false by the sequel.
** [[FridgeBrilliance ...what if you don't count Disney sequels as canon?]] And although this troper hates to defend that atrocity of a sequel, even if Shang ''was'' gay, it only takes you to believe in the "Mulan is transgender" theory for the relationship to work.
** This makes so much sense. Also think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
*** Trope names =/= trope meanings.
*** For those just joining us, PlatonicLifePartners was once "The Straight Will And Grace".
** This doesn't quite fit with how twitterpated he's acting at the end. Seems he's plenty into Mulan as a girl.
** Well, there's plenty going on to justify Shang's anger - the deception, as well as the difficult choice of whether to uphold the law. Not to mention that he had very recently suffered a serious personal loss along with the horror of the Chinese army's defeat. Emotions were running pretty high. This doesn't necessarily undermine the theory on principle, though he doesn't necessarily have to be gay to be attracted to "Ping." He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
** Maybe he was straight, got all hard for ping (if only because of random female pharemone showing up around him) , and when he finally began accpeting he may be a little gay, had a wet Ping involved dream, liked it, decided he may be a little gay, then found out Ping is a woman ANDOHMYFUCK AM I GAYANYWAY?!?!?!?! Moment. Immediatly after his dad died.
** Maybe Shang IS gay, but has an IfItsYouItsOkay thing when he finds out Mulan is a woman.
** Shang is Mulansexual!
** I always saw it that he was not gay, per say, but that he DID develop feelings for Ping, which he tried to deny to himself. When he discovered Mulan was indeed a girl, that made his feelings traditionally "acceptable" (not necessarily in real ancient China but at least in the world of this movie, where the other soldiers sang about the women they wanted to cook for them and fawn over them) but would also make him admit he fell in love with someone he thought was a man. So he had anger, which he unfairly directed at Mulan, for his complicated feelings. Reminded me of this line from NeverBeenKissed [[spoiler: when Josie expects Rob to happily surprised by her age but instead he is angry: "What, you were hoping . . . that I´d be happy? Why? Because it turns out I was allowed to be attracted to you?" ]]
** Alternatively being with a girl who ran away to join the army simply has more consequences than being with a male soldier.
Changed line(s) 14,16 (click to see context) from:
She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it. When she goes into the army as a man, and with being a man in ancient China she finally has this sort of freedom to express who she really is. , It doesn't even drastically change her song "Reflection." It just fits even more so.
* Thus, Mulan is a exploration of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity. We're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
* Thus, Mulan is a exploration of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity. We're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
to:
Come on, it makes so much sense! Especially if combined with the theory above.
* Although she likes dressing up at the beginning of the film.
** Transgender people can be transvestites. (That is, someone who doesn't identify with their physical sex can still find it pleasurable to dress as it.)
** She didn't seem to like it much either.
*** Yeah, isn't that part of the point of the scene? She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Which, FTM or not, is why all the pretty Mulan merchandise with her all dolled up is a huge wall banger for this troper.
**** Though if you think about it, she's really nervous and happy with the thought of "I'll finally please my family." Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it.When Personally, I've always seen her as androgynous both appearance and gender-wise because she doesn't fully fit into the norm she's supposed to, but when she goes into the army as a man, and with being a man in ancient China she finally has this sort of freedom to express who she really is. , It Honestly, saying she's FTM isn't impossible at all. And in saying that, it doesn't even drastically change her song "Reflection." It just fits even more so.
* Thus, Mulan **** My take: She's happy that she looks beautiful and is nicely dressed, as anyone would, but she doesn't like the uncomfortable restrictions of the clothes, and she ultimately feels that playing the sweet, delicate porcelain doll is no life for her. Nothing seems unfeminine to me on any count.
** That would certainly put aexploration different twist on "When Will My Reflection Show Who I Am Inside?"
*** This troper knows plenty of other trans people of the same age who like the song for that reason. Or find it absolutely effing heartbreaking. Usually both.
**** I can confirm that, and the 'both' part. Though I usually sing it to myself with all the pronouns flipped.
*** Always thought that's what the song was about, still hard to watch that part without feeling sad.
* In ancient China?
** Trans people have existed all throughout time. It's not that hard to believe one could exist in ancient China.
** A person can be transgender without having gender-reassignment surgery.
* You do realize that a girl can be a GenkiGirl[=/=]{{Tomboy}} and straight, right?
** The term here is cisgender, not straight.
** Right. We're talking about gender here, ''not'' sexuality.
* The only problem with this theory is that implies a certain level of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity.We're This being said, it's a definite possibility that could be explored, since we're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
* Although she likes dressing up at the beginning of the film.
** Transgender people can be transvestites. (That is, someone who doesn't identify with their physical sex can still find it pleasurable to dress as it.)
** She didn't seem to like it much either.
*** Yeah, isn't that part of the point of the scene? She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Which, FTM or not, is why all the pretty Mulan merchandise with her all dolled up is a huge wall banger for this troper.
**** Though if you think about it, she's really nervous and happy with the thought of "I'll finally please my family." Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it.
** That would certainly put a
*** This troper knows plenty of other trans people of the same age who like the song for that reason. Or find it absolutely effing heartbreaking. Usually both.
**** I can confirm that, and the 'both' part. Though I usually sing it to myself with all the pronouns flipped.
*** Always thought that's what the song was about, still hard to watch that part without feeling sad.
* In ancient China?
** Trans people have existed all throughout time. It's not that hard to believe one could exist in ancient China.
** A person can be transgender without having gender-reassignment surgery.
* You do realize that a girl can be a GenkiGirl[=/=]{{Tomboy}} and straight, right?
** The term here is cisgender, not straight.
** Right. We're talking about gender here, ''not'' sexuality.
* The only problem with this theory is that implies a certain level of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
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Changed line(s) 14,32 (click to see context) from:
Come on, it makes so much sense! Especially if combined with the theory above.
* Although she likes dressing up at the beginning of the film.
** Transgender people can be transvestites. (That is, someone who doesn't identify with their physical sex can still find it pleasurable to dress as it.)
** She didn't seem to like it much either.
*** Yeah, isn't that part of the point of the scene? She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Which, FTM or not, is why all the pretty Mulan merchandise with her all dolled up is a huge wall banger for this troper.
**** Though if you think about it, she's really nervous and happy with the thought of "I'll finally please my family." Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it. Personally, I've always seen her as androgynous both appearance and gender-wise because she doesn't fully fit into the norm she's supposed to, but when she goes into the army as a man, and with being a man in ancient China she finally has this sort of freedom to express who she really is. Honestly, saying she's FTM isn't impossible at all. And in saying that, it doesn't even drastically change her song "Reflection." It just fits even more so.
**** My take: She's happy that she looks beautiful and is nicely dressed, as anyone would, but she doesn't like the uncomfortable restrictions of the clothes, and she ultimately feels that playing the sweet, delicate porcelain doll is no life for her. Nothing seems unfeminine to me on any count.
** That would certainly put a different twist on "When Will My Reflection Show Who I Am Inside?"
*** This troper knows plenty of other trans people of the same age who like the song for that reason. Or find it absolutely effing heartbreaking. Usually both.
**** I can confirm that, and the 'both' part. Though I usually sing it to myself with all the pronouns flipped.
*** Always thought that's what the song was about, still hard to watch that part without feeling sad.
* In ancient China?
** Trans people have existed all throughout time. It's not that hard to believe one could exist in ancient China.
** A person can be transgender without having gender-reassignment surgery.
* You do realize that a girl can be a GenkiGirl[=/=]{{Tomboy}} and straight, right?
** The term here is cisgender, not straight.
** Right. We're talking about gender here, ''not'' sexuality.
* The only problem with this theory is that implies a certain level of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity. This being said, it's a definite possibility that could be explored, since we're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
* Although she likes dressing up at the beginning of the film.
** Transgender people can be transvestites. (That is, someone who doesn't identify with their physical sex can still find it pleasurable to dress as it.)
** She didn't seem to like it much either.
*** Yeah, isn't that part of the point of the scene? She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Which, FTM or not, is why all the pretty Mulan merchandise with her all dolled up is a huge wall banger for this troper.
**** Though if you think about it, she's really nervous and happy with the thought of "I'll finally please my family." Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it. Personally, I've always seen her as androgynous both appearance and gender-wise because she doesn't fully fit into the norm she's supposed to, but when she goes into the army as a man, and with being a man in ancient China she finally has this sort of freedom to express who she really is. Honestly, saying she's FTM isn't impossible at all. And in saying that, it doesn't even drastically change her song "Reflection." It just fits even more so.
**** My take: She's happy that she looks beautiful and is nicely dressed, as anyone would, but she doesn't like the uncomfortable restrictions of the clothes, and she ultimately feels that playing the sweet, delicate porcelain doll is no life for her. Nothing seems unfeminine to me on any count.
** That would certainly put a different twist on "When Will My Reflection Show Who I Am Inside?"
*** This troper knows plenty of other trans people of the same age who like the song for that reason. Or find it absolutely effing heartbreaking. Usually both.
**** I can confirm that, and the 'both' part. Though I usually sing it to myself with all the pronouns flipped.
*** Always thought that's what the song was about, still hard to watch that part without feeling sad.
* In ancient China?
** Trans people have existed all throughout time. It's not that hard to believe one could exist in ancient China.
** A person can be transgender without having gender-reassignment surgery.
* You do realize that a girl can be a GenkiGirl[=/=]{{Tomboy}} and straight, right?
** The term here is cisgender, not straight.
** Right. We're talking about gender here, ''not'' sexuality.
* The only problem with this theory is that implies a certain level of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity. This being said, it's a definite possibility that could be explored, since we're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
to:
* Although she likes dressing up at the beginning of the film.
** Transgender people can be transvestites. (That is, someone who doesn't identify with their physical sex can still find it pleasurable to dress as it.)
** She didn't seem to like it much either.
*** Yeah, isn't that part of the point of the scene?
**** Though if you think about it, she's really nervous and happy with the thought of "I'll finally please my family."
** That would certainly put
*** This troper knows plenty of other trans people of the same age who like the song for that reason. Or find it absolutely effing heartbreaking. Usually both.
**** I can confirm that, and the 'both' part. Though I usually sing it to myself with all the pronouns flipped.
*** Always thought that's what the song was about, still hard to watch that part without feeling sad.
* In ancient China?
** Trans people have existed all throughout time. It's not that hard to believe one could exist in ancient China.
** A person can be transgender without having gender-reassignment surgery.
* You do realize that a girl can be a GenkiGirl[=/=]{{Tomboy}} and straight, right?
** The term here is cisgender, not straight.
** Right. We're talking about gender here, ''not'' sexuality.
* The only problem with this theory is that implies a certain level
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 1,16 (click to see context) from:
[[WMG: [[GymBunny Shang]] was angry at Mulan after TheReveal not because of honor, but because he is gay.]]
"Ping" just saved his life, there had to be something going on besides "honor" that would make him so pissy about Ping turning out to be a girl. They had a few good moments before then, and it's not unreasonable to speculate that he began to respect Ping for "his" accomplishments during training (not to mention [[AttractiveBentGender Ping's supposedly good looks]]). So Ping turning out to be a girl pretty much [[IncompatibleOrientation broke his heart]], and he was [[LoveMakesYouDumb unable to think rationally]] for some time after that, explaining his [[LawfulStupid strange behavior]] [[CassandraTruth afterwards]]. At the end he finally got over his heartbreak over "Ping" and accepted Mulan's true identity. And the film does not explicitly show them hooking up. Instead, [[ShortTank Mulan]] and Shang become PlatonicLifePartners.
** This is shown to be false by the sequel.
** [[FridgeBrilliance ...what if you don't count Disney sequels as canon?]] And although this troper hates to defend that atrocity of a sequel, even if Shang ''was'' gay, it only takes you to believe in the "Mulan is transgender" theory for the relationship to work.
** This makes so much sense. Also think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
** [[RunningGag OBJECT]][[LampshadeHanging ION]], you canned your own argument because them being PlatonicLifePartners means that Shang is straight or bi, not to mention they bear a fire forged bond (besides, after what she did, what straight dude wouldn't want her?)
*** Trope names =/= trope meanings.
*** For those just joining us, PlatonicLifePartners was once "The Straight Will And Grace".
** This doesn't quite fit with how twitterpated he's acting at the end. Seems he's plenty into Mulan as a girl.
** Well, there's plenty going on to justify Shang's anger - the deception, as well as the difficult choice of whether to uphold the law. Not to mention that he had very recently suffered a serious personal loss along with the horror of the Chinese army's defeat. Emotions were running pretty high. This doesn't necessarily undermine the theory on principle, though he doesn't necessarily have to be gay to be attracted to "Ping." He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
** Maybe he was straight, got all hard for ping (if only because of random female pharemone showing up around him) , and when he finally began accpeting he may be a little gay, had a wet Ping involved dream, liked it, decided he may be a little gay, then found out Ping is a woman ANDOHMYFUCK AM I GAYANYWAY?!?!?!?! Moment. Immediatly after his dad died.
** Maybe Shang IS gay, but has an IfItsYouItsOkay thing when he finds out Mulan is a woman.
** Shang is Mulansexual!
** I always saw it that he was not gay, per say, but that he DID develop feelings for Ping, which he tried to deny to himself. When he discovered Mulan was indeed a girl, that made his feelings traditionally "acceptable" (not necessarily in real ancient China but at least in the world of this movie, where the other soldiers sang about the women they wanted to cook for them and fawn over them) but would also make him admit he fell in love with someone he thought was a man. So he had anger, which he unfairly directed at Mulan, for his complicated feelings. Reminded me of this line from NeverBeenKissed [[spoiler: when Josie expects Rob to happily surprised by her age but instead he is angry: "What, you were hoping . . . that I´d be happy? Why? Because it turns out I was allowed to be attracted to you?" ]]
** Alternatively being with a girl who ran away to join the army simply has more consequences than being with a male soldier.
"Ping" just saved his life, there had to be something going on besides "honor" that would make him so pissy about Ping turning out to be a girl. They had a few good moments before then, and it's not unreasonable to speculate that he began to respect Ping for "his" accomplishments during training (not to mention [[AttractiveBentGender Ping's supposedly good looks]]). So Ping turning out to be a girl pretty much [[IncompatibleOrientation broke his heart]], and he was [[LoveMakesYouDumb unable to think rationally]] for some time after that, explaining his [[LawfulStupid strange behavior]] [[CassandraTruth afterwards]]. At the end he finally got over his heartbreak over "Ping" and accepted Mulan's true identity. And the film does not explicitly show them hooking up. Instead, [[ShortTank Mulan]] and Shang become PlatonicLifePartners.
** This is shown to be false by the sequel.
** [[FridgeBrilliance ...what if you don't count Disney sequels as canon?]] And although this troper hates to defend that atrocity of a sequel, even if Shang ''was'' gay, it only takes you to believe in the "Mulan is transgender" theory for the relationship to work.
** This makes so much sense. Also think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
** [[RunningGag OBJECT]][[LampshadeHanging ION]], you canned your own argument because them being PlatonicLifePartners means that Shang is straight or bi, not to mention they bear a fire forged bond (besides, after what she did, what straight dude wouldn't want her?)
*** Trope names =/= trope meanings.
*** For those just joining us, PlatonicLifePartners was once "The Straight Will And Grace".
** This doesn't quite fit with how twitterpated he's acting at the end. Seems he's plenty into Mulan as a girl.
** Well, there's plenty going on to justify Shang's anger - the deception, as well as the difficult choice of whether to uphold the law. Not to mention that he had very recently suffered a serious personal loss along with the horror of the Chinese army's defeat. Emotions were running pretty high. This doesn't necessarily undermine the theory on principle, though he doesn't necessarily have to be gay to be attracted to "Ping." He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
** Maybe he was straight, got all hard for ping (if only because of random female pharemone showing up around him) , and when he finally began accpeting he may be a little gay, had a wet Ping involved dream, liked it, decided he may be a little gay, then found out Ping is a woman ANDOHMYFUCK AM I GAYANYWAY?!?!?!?! Moment. Immediatly after his dad died.
** Maybe Shang IS gay, but has an IfItsYouItsOkay thing when he finds out Mulan is a woman.
** Shang is Mulansexual!
** I always saw it that he was not gay, per say, but that he DID develop feelings for Ping, which he tried to deny to himself. When he discovered Mulan was indeed a girl, that made his feelings traditionally "acceptable" (not necessarily in real ancient China but at least in the world of this movie, where the other soldiers sang about the women they wanted to cook for them and fawn over them) but would also make him admit he fell in love with someone he thought was a man. So he had anger, which he unfairly directed at Mulan, for his complicated feelings. Reminded me of this line from NeverBeenKissed [[spoiler: when Josie expects Rob to happily surprised by her age but instead he is angry: "What, you were hoping . . . that I´d be happy? Why? Because it turns out I was allowed to be attracted to you?" ]]
** Alternatively being with a girl who ran away to join the army simply has more consequences than being with a male soldier.
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[[WMG:[[GymBunny Shang]] Shang was angry at Mulan after TheReveal not because of honor, but because he is gay.]]
"Ping" just saved hislife, there life. There had to be something going on besides "honor" that would make him so pissy about Ping turning out to be a girl. They had a few good moments before then, and it's not unreasonable to speculate that he began to respect Ping for "his" accomplishments during training (not to mention [[AttractiveBentGender Ping's supposedly good looks]]). So Ping turning out to be a girl pretty much [[IncompatibleOrientation broke his heart]], and he heart]]. He was [[LoveMakesYouDumb unable to think rationally]] for some time after that, explaining his [[LawfulStupid strange behavior]] [[CassandraTruth afterwards]]. At the end he finally got over his heartbreak over "Ping" and accepted Mulan's true identity. And the film does not explicitly show them hooking up. Instead, [[ShortTank Mulan]] and Shang become PlatonicLifePartners.
** This is shown to be false by the sequel.
** [[FridgeBrilliance ...what if you don't count Disney sequels as canon?]] And although this troper hates to defend that atrocity of a sequel, even if Shang ''was'' gay, it only takes you to believe in the "Mulan is transgender" theory for the relationship to work.
** This makes so much sense. Also thinkidentity.
* Think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
** [[RunningGag OBJECT]][[LampshadeHanging ION]], you canned your own argument because them being PlatonicLifePartners means that Shang is straight or bi, not to mention they bear a fire forged bond (besides, after what she did, what straight dude wouldn't want her?)
*** Trope names =/= trope meanings.
*** For those just joining us, PlatonicLifePartners was once "The Straight Will And Grace".
** This doesn't quite fit with how twitterpated he's acting at the end. Seems he's plenty into Mulan as a girl.
** Well, there's plenty going on to justify Shang's anger - the deception, as well as the difficult choice of whether to uphold the law. Not to mention that he had very recently suffered a serious personal loss along with the horror of the Chinese army's defeat. Emotions were running pretty high. This doesn't necessarily undermine the theory on principle, though he doesn't necessarily have to be gay to be attracted to "Ping."* He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
** Maybe he was straight, got all hard for ping (if only because of random female pharemone showing up around him) , and when he finally began accpeting he may be a little gay, had a wet Ping involved dream, liked it, decided he may be a little gay, then found out Ping is a woman ANDOHMYFUCK AM I GAYANYWAY?!?!?!?! Moment. Immediatly after his dad died.
** Maybe Shang IS gay, but has an IfItsYouItsOkay thing when he finds out Mulan is a woman.
** Shang is Mulansexual!
** I always saw it that he was not gay, per say, but that he DID develop feelings for Ping, which he tried to deny to himself. When he discovered Mulan was indeed a girl, that made his feelings traditionally "acceptable" (not necessarily in real ancient China but at least in the world of this movie, where the other soldiers sang about the women they wanted to cook for them and fawn over them) but would also make him admit he fell in love with someone he thought was a man. So he had anger, which he unfairly directed at Mulan, for his complicated feelings. Reminded me of this line from NeverBeenKissed [[spoiler: when Josie expects Rob to happily surprised by her age but instead he is angry: "What, you were hoping . . . that I´d be happy? Why? Because it turns out I was allowed to be attracted to you?" ]]
** Alternatively being with a girl who ran away to join the army simply has more consequences than being with a male soldier.
%%% This is not a forum. Do not reply to posts. It is also not a place for troper tales.
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[[WMG:
"Ping" just saved his
** This is shown to be false by the sequel.
** [[FridgeBrilliance ...what if you don't count Disney sequels as canon?]] And although this troper hates to defend that atrocity of a sequel, even if Shang ''was'' gay, it only takes you to believe in the "Mulan is transgender" theory for the relationship to work.
** This makes so much sense. Also think
* Think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
*** Trope names =/= trope meanings.
*** For those just joining us, PlatonicLifePartners was once "The Straight Will And Grace".
** This doesn't quite fit with how twitterpated he's acting at the end. Seems he's plenty into Mulan as a girl.
** Well, there's plenty going on to justify Shang's anger - the deception, as well as the difficult choice of whether to uphold the law. Not to mention that he had very recently suffered a serious personal loss along with the horror of the Chinese army's defeat. Emotions were running pretty high. This doesn't necessarily undermine the theory on principle, though he doesn't necessarily have to be gay to be attracted to "Ping."
** Maybe Shang IS gay, but has an IfItsYouItsOkay thing when he finds out Mulan is a woman.
** Shang is Mulansexual!
** I always saw it that he was not gay, per say, but that he DID develop feelings for Ping, which he tried to deny to himself. When he discovered Mulan was indeed a girl, that made his feelings traditionally "acceptable" (not necessarily in real ancient China but at least in the world of this movie, where the other soldiers sang about the women they wanted to cook for them and fawn over them) but would also make him admit he fell in love with someone he thought was a man. So he had anger, which he unfairly directed at Mulan, for his complicated feelings. Reminded me of this line from NeverBeenKissed [[spoiler: when Josie expects Rob to happily surprised by her age but instead he is angry: "What, you were hoping . . . that I´d be happy? Why? Because it turns out I was allowed to be attracted to you?" ]]
** Alternatively being with a girl who ran away to join the army simply has more consequences than being with a male soldier.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 2,5 (click to see context) from:
"Ping" just saved his life. There had to be something going on besides "honor" that would make him so pissy about Ping turning out to be a girl. They had a few good moments before then, and it's not unreasonable to speculate that he began to respect Ping for "his" accomplishments during training (not to mention [[AttractiveBentGender Ping's supposedly good looks]]). So Ping turning out to be a girl [[IncompatibleOrientation broke his heart]]. He was [[LoveMakesYouDumb unable to think rationally]] for some time after that, explaining his [[LawfulStupid strange behavior]] [[CassandraTruth afterwards]]. At the end he finally got over his heartbreak over "Ping" and accepted Mulan's true identity.
* Think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
* He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
* Think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
* He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
to:
"Ping" just saved his life. There life, there had to be something going on besides "honor" that would make him so pissy about Ping turning out to be a girl. They had a few good moments before then, and it's not unreasonable to speculate that he began to respect Ping for "his" accomplishments during training (not to mention [[AttractiveBentGender Ping's supposedly good looks]]). So Ping turning out to be a girl pretty much [[IncompatibleOrientation broke his heart]]. He heart]], and he was [[LoveMakesYouDumb unable to think rationally]] for some time after that, explaining his [[LawfulStupid strange behavior]] [[CassandraTruth afterwards]]. At the end he finally got over his heartbreak over "Ping" and accepted Mulan's true identity.
* Thinkidentity. And the film does not explicitly show them hooking up. Instead, [[ShortTank Mulan]] and Shang become PlatonicLifePartners.
** This is shown to be false by the sequel.
** [[FridgeBrilliance ...what if you don't count Disney sequels as canon?]] And although this troper hates to defend that atrocity of a sequel, even if Shang ''was'' gay, it only takes you to believe in the "Mulan is transgender" theory for the relationship to work.
** This makes so much sense. Also think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
* ** [[RunningGag OBJECT]][[LampshadeHanging ION]], you canned your own argument because them being PlatonicLifePartners means that Shang is straight or bi, not to mention they bear a fire forged bond (besides, after what she did, what straight dude wouldn't want her?)
*** Trope names =/= trope meanings.
*** For those just joining us, PlatonicLifePartners was once "The Straight Will And Grace".
** This doesn't quite fit with how twitterpated he's acting at the end. Seems he's plenty into Mulan as a girl.
** Well, there's plenty going on to justify Shang's anger - the deception, as well as the difficult choice of whether to uphold the law. Not to mention that he had very recently suffered a serious personal loss along with the horror of the Chinese army's defeat. Emotions were running pretty high. This doesn't necessarily undermine the theory on principle, though he doesn't necessarily have to be gay to be attracted to "Ping." He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
** Maybe he was straight, got all hard for ping (if only because of random female pharemone showing up around him) , and when he finally began accpeting he may be a little gay, had a wet Ping involved dream, liked it, decided he may be a little gay, then found out Ping is a woman ANDOHMYFUCK AM I GAYANYWAY?!?!?!?! Moment. Immediatly after his dad died.
** Maybe Shang IS gay, but has an IfItsYouItsOkay thing when he finds out Mulan is a woman.
** Shang is Mulansexual!
** I always saw it that he was not gay, per say, but that he DID develop feelings for Ping, which he tried to deny to himself. When he discovered Mulan was indeed a girl, that made his feelings traditionally "acceptable" (not necessarily in real ancient China but at least in the world of this movie, where the other soldiers sang about the women they wanted to cook for them and fawn over them) but would also make him admit he fell in love with someone he thought was a man. So he had anger, which he unfairly directed at Mulan, for his complicated feelings. Reminded me of this line from NeverBeenKissed [[spoiler: when Josie expects Rob to happily surprised by her age but instead he is angry: "What, you were hoping . . . that I´d be happy? Why? Because it turns out I was allowed to be attracted to you?" ]]
** Alternatively being with a girl who ran away to join the army simply has more consequences than being with a male soldier.
* Think
** This is shown to be false by the sequel.
** [[FridgeBrilliance ...what if you don't count Disney sequels as canon?]] And although this troper hates to defend that atrocity of a sequel, even if Shang ''was'' gay, it only takes you to believe in the "Mulan is transgender" theory for the relationship to work.
** This makes so much sense. Also think about the fact that this is one of the few Disney animated films in which The Heroine does not share a kiss with The Guy/Hero, not to mention that Shang is the only major protagonist that doesn't sing any lines in "A Girl Worth Fighting For".
*** Trope names =/= trope meanings.
*** For those just joining us, PlatonicLifePartners was once "The Straight Will And Grace".
** This doesn't quite fit with how twitterpated he's acting at the end. Seems he's plenty into Mulan as a girl.
** Well, there's plenty going on to justify Shang's anger - the deception, as well as the difficult choice of whether to uphold the law. Not to mention that he had very recently suffered a serious personal loss along with the horror of the Chinese army's defeat. Emotions were running pretty high. This doesn't necessarily undermine the theory on principle, though he doesn't necessarily have to be gay to be attracted to "Ping." He could be bisexual or something similar. Old China was generally more tolerant of bi/homosexual behavior than Christian dominated Europe (at least of the men - provided they fulfilled their social commitments to family), so it's not too much of stretch to hypothesize Shang might have been treading along the more ambiguous tiers of the Kinsey scale. It's Mulan/Ping's actions and personal qualities that forged a bond between them, not her gender. It could certainly make some interesting fiction if properly explored.
** Maybe he was straight, got all hard for ping (if only because of random female pharemone showing up around him) , and when he finally began accpeting he may be a little gay, had a wet Ping involved dream, liked it, decided he may be a little gay, then found out Ping is a woman ANDOHMYFUCK AM I GAYANYWAY?!?!?!?! Moment. Immediatly after his dad died.
** Maybe Shang IS gay, but has an IfItsYouItsOkay thing when he finds out Mulan is a woman.
** Shang is Mulansexual!
** I always saw it that he was not gay, per say, but that he DID develop feelings for Ping, which he tried to deny to himself. When he discovered Mulan was indeed a girl, that made his feelings traditionally "acceptable" (not necessarily in real ancient China but at least in the world of this movie, where the other soldiers sang about the women they wanted to cook for them and fawn over them) but would also make him admit he fell in love with someone he thought was a man. So he had anger, which he unfairly directed at Mulan, for his complicated feelings. Reminded me of this line from NeverBeenKissed [[spoiler: when Josie expects Rob to happily surprised by her age but instead he is angry: "What, you were hoping . . . that I´d be happy? Why? Because it turns out I was allowed to be attracted to you?" ]]
** Alternatively being with a girl who ran away to join the army simply has more consequences than being with a male soldier.
Changed line(s) 7,9 (click to see context) from:
She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it. When she goes into the army as a man, and with being a man in ancient China she finally has this sort of freedom to express who she really is. , It doesn't even drastically change her song "Reflection." It just fits even more so.
* Thus, Mulan is a exploration of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity. We're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
* Thus, Mulan is a exploration of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity. We're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
to:
Come on, it makes so much sense! Especially if combined with the theory above.
* Although she likes dressing up at the beginning of the film.
** Transgender people can be transvestites. (That is, someone who doesn't identify with their physical sex can still find it pleasurable to dress as it.)
** She didn't seem to like it much either.
*** Yeah, isn't that part of the point of the scene? She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Which, FTM or not, is why all the pretty Mulan merchandise with her all dolled up is a huge wall banger for this troper.
**** Though if you think about it, she's really nervous and happy with the thought of "I'll finally please my family." Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it.When Personally, I've always seen her as androgynous both appearance and gender-wise because she doesn't fully fit into the norm she's supposed to, but when she goes into the army as a man, and with being a man in ancient China she finally has this sort of freedom to express who she really is. , It Honestly, saying she's FTM isn't impossible at all. And in saying that, it doesn't even drastically change her song "Reflection." It just fits even more so.
* Thus, Mulan **** My take: She's happy that she looks beautiful and is nicely dressed, as anyone would, but she doesn't like the uncomfortable restrictions of the clothes, and she ultimately feels that playing the sweet, delicate porcelain doll is no life for her. Nothing seems unfeminine to me on any count.
** That would certainly put aexploration different twist on "When Will My Reflection Show Who I Am Inside?"
*** This troper knows plenty of other trans people of the same age who like the song for that reason. Or find it absolutely effing heartbreaking. Usually both.
**** I can confirm that, and the 'both' part. Though I usually sing it to myself with all the pronouns flipped.
*** Always thought that's what the song was about, still hard to watch that part without feeling sad.
* In ancient China?
** Trans people have existed all throughout time. It's not that hard to believe one could exist in ancient China.
** A person can be transgender without having gender-reassignment surgery.
* You do realize that a girl can be a GenkiGirl[=/=]{{Tomboy}} and straight, right?
** The term here is cisgender, not straight.
** Right. We're talking about gender here, ''not'' sexuality.
* The only problem with this theory is that implies a certain level of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity.We're This being said, it's a definite possibility that could be explored, since we're speaking of a time period where the entire concept of transgender would've been ill-defined, if acknowledged at all in old China's sharply defined gender paradigms.
* Although she likes dressing up at the beginning of the film.
** Transgender people can be transvestites. (That is, someone who doesn't identify with their physical sex can still find it pleasurable to dress as it.)
** She didn't seem to like it much either.
*** Yeah, isn't that part of the point of the scene? She's kind of excited/jittery with anticipation about going before the Matchmaker, but she doesn't seem at all happy dressed that way. Which, FTM or not, is why all the pretty Mulan merchandise with her all dolled up is a huge wall banger for this troper.
**** Though if you think about it, she's really nervous and happy with the thought of "I'll finally please my family." Throughout the whole song "Honor To Us All", she doesn't seem to be really enjoying the make-over or dress-up she's being put through. Only until her family seems so proud of her does she finally seem to not mind it.
** That would certainly put a
*** This troper knows plenty of other trans people of the same age who like the song for that reason. Or find it absolutely effing heartbreaking. Usually both.
**** I can confirm that, and the 'both' part. Though I usually sing it to myself with all the pronouns flipped.
*** Always thought that's what the song was about, still hard to watch that part without feeling sad.
* In ancient China?
** Trans people have existed all throughout time. It's not that hard to believe one could exist in ancient China.
** A person can be transgender without having gender-reassignment surgery.
* You do realize that a girl can be a GenkiGirl[=/=]{{Tomboy}} and straight, right?
** The term here is cisgender, not straight.
** Right. We're talking about gender here, ''not'' sexuality.
* The only problem with this theory is that implies a certain level of gender essentialism - i.e. that certain characteristics must be indicative of a male or female persona, rather than being fundamentally neutral. Mulan's internal conflict does not seem significantly centered on her female identity so much as how to express the individual aspects of that identity in harmony with the expectations of her culture. She lacks agency within the confines of her life, which is the root of a lot of her esteem and self-worth issues. The Mulan we see after the war is far more mature and self-assured, without having completely rejected her feminine identity.
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Mushu was once the mighty Great Stone Dragon, but as penance for screwing up, the ancestors not only stripped him of his guardian status, but drained his spirit of its powers, rendering him a small dragon with almost no combat prowess, and erasing his memories as well. They intended to send him after Mulan from the beginning, as a chance at redemption for him, but they didn't want to remind him of his past before he earned his place again by proving he could be a good guardian without all the powers of the Great Stone Dragon. To this end, they sent him out to "awaken" a fake statue of himself, knowing that it wouldn't work and Mushu would take after Mulan himself. However, some of them were secretly hoping that he would fail or get himself killed, and were still hesitant to allow him to be a guardian again, hence the grudging expression on the ancestor's face when he restores Mushu to his position as a guardian. This explains why nobody seemed to give the fact that Mushu destroyed the statue of the Great Stone Dragon any importance. It would also explain why the ancestor didn't act suspicious about Mushu's PaperThinDisguise when he was holding up the statue's head and pretending he was the Great Stone Dragon.
to:
Mushu was once the mighty Great Stone Dragon, but as penance for screwing up, the ancestors not only stripped him of his guardian status, but drained his spirit of its powers, rendering him a small dragon with almost no combat prowess, and erasing his memories as well. They intended to send him after Mulan from the beginning, as a chance at redemption for him, but they didn't want to remind him of his past before he earned his place again by proving he could be a good guardian without all the powers of the Great Stone Dragon. To this end, they sent him out to "awaken" a fake statue of himself, knowing that it wouldn't work and Mushu would take after Mulan himself. However, some of them were secretly hoping that he would fail or get himself killed, and were still hesitant to allow him to be a guardian again, hence the grudging expression on the ancestor's face when he restores Mushu to his position as a guardian. This also explains why nobody seemed to give the fact that Mushu destroyed the statue of the Great Stone Dragon any importance. It importance.
** That would also explain why the ancestor didn't act suspicious about Mushu's PaperThinDisguise when he was holding up the statue's head and pretending he was the Great StoneDragon.
Dragon.
** That would also explain why the ancestor didn't act suspicious about Mushu's PaperThinDisguise when he was holding up the statue's head and pretending he was the Great Stone
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* It's a fairly androgynous name, depending on the characters used.
to:
No guesses why.
*It's Or they'll nane their first child Ping regardless of the sex; it ''is'' a fairly androgynous name, depending on the characters used.
*
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This will make things weird between Mulan's ancestors and Shang's ancestor, knowing that because of a fling that happened waaaaay back when, the two new lovers are related. It will only be a speck of blood from mllenia ago, so it's not realy incest. It's a 'my great great great great grandad was your great great great great grandad's brother' sort of thing.
to:
This will make things weird between Mulan's ancestors and Shang's ancestor, knowing that because of a fling that happened waaaaay back when, the two new lovers are related. It will \\
By onlybe a speck of blood from mllenia ago, so it's not realy incest. It's a incest.
** You mean the whole 'my great great great great grandad was your great great great great grandad's brother' sort ofthing.
thing?
By only
** You mean the whole 'my great great great great grandad was your great great great great grandad's brother' sort of
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* Warhorses required a great deal of time and effort to train so they wouldn't panic under the conditions on a battlefield, and could be very expensive as a result. Considering how badly Fa Zhou was injured in the last war, they would probably not buy a new warhorse to replace the old one when it died, as there would be no real need. Then when you compare how long horses live on average and when the last war took place, this idea makes the most sense.
to:
* That makes perfect sense. Warhorses required a great deal of time and effort to train so they wouldn't panic under the conditions on a battlefield, and could be very expensive as a result. Considering how badly Fa Zhou was injured in the last war, they would probably not buy a new warhorse to replace the old one when it died, as there would be no real need. Then when you compare how long horses live on average and when the last war took place, this idea makes the most sense.
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It would explain why he's so effeminate, and why he's always so angry. Given how the vast majority of the emperor's male servants would have been eunuchs (if we're [[AnachronismStew going for historical accuracy]], anyway)... Not only does this theory explain a lot about Chi Fu, it has basis in fact, too! As posited [[http://atla-annotated.tumblr.com/post/25704435369/the-price-of-power-ba-sing-se-and-eunuchs-in-the here]].
to:
It would explain why he's so effeminate, and why he's always so angry. angry.
* Well... Given how the vast majority of the emperor's male servants would have been eunuchs (if we're actually [[AnachronismStew going for historical accuracy]], anyway)... Not only does this theory explain a lot about Chi Fu, it has basis in fact,too! too!
** As posited [[http://atla-annotated.tumblr.com/post/25704435369/the-price-of-power-ba-sing-se-and-eunuchs-in-the here]].
* Well... Given how the vast majority of the emperor's male servants would have been eunuchs (if we're actually [[AnachronismStew going for historical accuracy]], anyway)... Not only does this theory explain a lot about Chi Fu, it has basis in fact,
** As posited [[http://atla-annotated.tumblr.com/post/25704435369/the-price-of-power-ba-sing-se-and-eunuchs-in-the here]].
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