History SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism / ComicBooks

* [[Franchise/JusticeLeagueOfAmerica JLA Classified]] # 3. Franchise/{{Superman}} tells the International Ultramarine Corps (a pastiche of cynical superhero teams) that "These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of [[EverythingsBetterWithMonkeys jet-powered apes]] and TimeTravel," and gives them the chance to go to a baby universe troubled by "cynical" problems.

* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler: S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into [[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]]]].

** ComicBook/CaptainAmericaSteveRogers and CaptainAmericaSamWilson's falls purely cynical. America falls into facism as ComicBook/CaptainAmerica goes through a FaceHeelTurn and Sam Wilson can only watch as his attempts to bring justice constantly end in failure as the Americops abuse their authority.

** ComicBook/NickSpencersCaptainAmerica and Sam Wilsons falls purely cynical. America falls into facism as ComicBook/CaptainAmerica goes through a FaceHeelTurn and Sam Wilson can only watch as his attempts to bring justice constantly end in failure as the Americops abuse their authority.

* Often, [[DependingOnTheWriter who's writing for a character]] in a comic book determines where on the scale that character falls. In some books, Franchise/{{Batman}} is [[NotSoDifferent one step up from the Joker]]. In others, he's almost as much of a boy scout as Franchise/{{Superman}}. Since the writing duties of a comic series can change from issue to issue, this can be slightly disorienting, as the reader doesn't know from one StoryArc to the next if the book's star is going to be a jerk or a hero. In this scenario, it's also a form of WriterOnBoard. This also applies to any long-running TV series with frequent writer changes and a dramatic bent.

* Products of First Comics in the 1980s both ''ComicBook/AmericanFlagg'', taking place TwentyMinutesIntoTheFuture in an America that is owned outright by a {{Megacorp}} and ''Grimjack'' which takes place in the interdimensional WretchedHive of Cynosure start out cynical and grow more so with time.

** Still, Batman takes ThouShallNotKill ''very'' seriously, believing that no matter how many innocent lives a villain has taken, [[TheFarmerAndTheViper and no matter how likely he is to repeat his actions]], it is still wrong to kill them, [[IfYouKillHimYouWillBeJustLikeHim for reasons we all know.]] Wouldn't an emphasis on morality over effectiveness place Batman farther toward the Idealistic end?

** Oddly enough, whenever he's by himself (in the incredibly CrapsackWorld of Gotham), Batman tends to be less of a cynic, but becomes much more of one when he's around other characters and has to fill that niche.

* The ''Bone'' comics by JeffSmith is pretty heavily on the idealistic end for the most part. Its pretty much like a kid-friendly ''Literature/TheLordOfTheRings''.

** There is one current superheroine with which this completely does not apply: Comicbook/{{Manhunter}}. In her first appearance, she killed Copperhead and has never regretted it. In fact, even people who know her secret identity aren't bothered by it - probably because of the fact that Copperhead was a mass murderer and had just slaughtered a bunch of cops. [[ComicBook/BirdsOfPrey She's even teamed up with Oracle]], been the lawyer of WonderWoman, and has consulted Batman and Superman for help before.

** Creator/AlanMoore later felt that, partly as a result of the popularity of ''Watchmen'', later superhero comics completely missed the point and [[MisaimedFandom focused too much on the wrong things]], going [[UsefulNotes/TheDarkAgeOfComicBooks too far to the other side of the scale]] and forgetting to retain ''some'' level of idealism and fun in the process. In an effort to remedy this, he created ''Tom Strong'', a more idealistic superhero series, in order to even the scales a bit. He also did a landmark run on ''Supreme'' and wrote ''1963'' in a further attempt to reverse the trend.

* One of the draws of the ''GreenLantern and ComicBook/GreenArrow'' series was this, Lantern as idealistic, Arrow as cynical. This is brought up later in ''Green Lantern: Rebirth'', when GA tries to use GL's power ring to defend himself, only for Sinestro to smack him down and mocking his will as being too cynical to even get the ring to work. So, idealism isn't so bad...

** Another book of his that falls on the more Idealistic side of the scale is ‘’Comicbook/{{Huck}}’’.

* The ''Bone'' comics by JeffSmith is pretty heavily on the idealistic end for the most part. Its pretty much like a kid-friendly LordOfTheRings.

** NickSpencersCaptainAmerica and Sam Wilsons falls purely cynical. America falls into facism as CaptainAmerica goes through a FaceHeelTurn and Sam Wilson can only watch as his attempts to bring justice constantly end in failure as the Americops abuse their authority.

** This is best represented by one topic on the WizardsOfTheCoast forum where someone posted detailed arguments for Batman's alignment. As it turns out, [[http://alzrius.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/batman-alignment.jpg a good argument can be made for all 9 possibilities.]]

* The ''Comicbook/Bone'' comics by JeffSmith is pretty heavily on the idealistic end for the most part. Its pretty much like a kid-friendly LordOfTheRings.

* The ''ComicBook/Bone'' comics by JeffSmith is pretty heavily on the idealistic end for the most part. Its like a kid-friendly LordOfTheRings.

* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler:S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into [[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]].

** [[Author/NickSpencer Nick Spencer's]] Take on Captain America and Sam Wilsons falls purely cynical. America falls into facism as CaptainAmerica goes through a FaceHeelTurn and Sam Wilson can only watch as his attempts to bring justice constantly end in failure as the Americops abuse their authority.

* In the Idealism extreme, we have Piffany from ''{{Nodwick}}'', who believes that everything is goodness and light, despite the evidence displayed by her fellow party members. Nodwick himself is justifiably much more cynical.

* ''{{Comicbook/Watchmen}}'' was written as a deliberate {{Deconstruction}} of more idealistic comic book superheroes, the idealism of superheroes, and the superhero genre in general. It shows what would really inspire people to go out in ridiculous, often-times skimpy uniforms and beat the crud out of other people, and one of the characters quite intentionally [[KnightTemplar crosses the line]] separating idealistic superheroism from deluded vigilante action.

--> '''Creator/AlanMoore''': "Having deconstructed everything perhaps we really should be starting to think about [[{{Reconstruction}} putting everything back together]]."

* ''JLA Classified'' # 3. Comicbook/{{Superman}} tells the International Ultramarine Corps (a pastiche of cynical superhero teams) that "These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of [[EverythingsBetterWithMonkeys jet-powered apes]] and TimeTravel," and gives them the chance to go to a baby universe troubled by "cynical" problems.

* The scale is examined very effectively in the ''{{Comicbook/Superman}}'' comic "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice And The American Way?" Of course, being about the original [[TheCape Cape]] himself, the conclusions it raises fall squarely on the idealistic side of the scale, but it's a well-written story nonetheless.

** The formerly-{{canon}} version of Comicbook/{{Superman}} has killed precisely once, during UsefulNotes/{{the Dark Age|OfComicBooks}}, in order to ShootTheDog on three Kryptonians from an AlternateUniverse. Since then, writers have either [[CanonDisContinuity ignored this]], or have him regard it as a mistake that made his self-imposed prohibition against killing even stronger in response. As of current canon, Superman has never killed anyone.
** WonderWoman on the other hand in modern times is a classically trained warrior who is ready to use deadly force if necessary. For instance, former ally Max Lord gains mind control powers and uses them to make Superman try to kill everyone; when Wondy asks him what will make him stop, Max tells her to kill him, and she does. The event is broadcast worldwide to the public by Max's spy cameras and severely hurts Wondy's reputation.

** Similarly, the Marvel Universe seems to take AllOfTheOtherReindeer as a guiding principle for their sustained "realism", and has since TheSeventies. DC is leaning toward this of late as well. I understand there is prejudice in the world, but one may wonder how much distrust of the abnormal can lead people to abandon all ethics, principles, and even senses of self-preservation.

* For a good long while, a major selling point of the MarvelUniverse in general was that their characters were more realistic (read: cynical) than in TheDCU; of course, they were often just as ''implausible'' in nature, but Marvel's characters often possessed more character flaws and personal issues than the idealistically "perfect" heroes in DC. These days, given forty odd years of CharacterDevelopment and competition since Marvel first hit it big, this distinction isn't quite as significant as once it was; unfortunately, both companies have a tendency to instead plunge into [[TrueArtIsAngsty whichever side of the scale that will make their characters more angsty]].