History Main / NoPointsForNeutrality

-->--'''Gottfried Leibniz''', on UsefulNotes/{{Prussia}}'s neutrality in UsefulNotes/TheGreatNorthernWar

** Storywise, alignment doesn't come up in conversation much anyway. But particularly if you're a Force user, it will often make the observing NPC scratch their head in confusion. [[spoiler:Jaesa]] doesn't know what to make of you, meaning you can choose if you want to corrupt her or not when you recruit her, [[spoiler:Revan]] will approve, though, and praises you on your moral flexibility. It makes for interesting role playing opportunities too; a bounty hunter who's purely in it for the money. An Agent who'll ShootTheDog if necessary but avoids senseless killing, etc.

* In ''VideoGame/DiscoElysium'', the player meets four ideologies (roughly corresponding to the political compass) throughout the game, and can chose to follow any of them. Doing this grants an extra thought for the Thought Cabinet and unlocks bonus dialogue options. Having no opinion on ideology at all pushes the PlayerCharacter closer toward Moralism (centrism), and gets them nothing but contempt from many characters for being a fencesitter.

Even harder is how to effectively communicate what these possibilities are to the player. Nuanced morality options don't work if the player doesn't understand all of the nuances involved. Even with diametrically opposed morality options, some players become confused about what an option really means until they actually press it. Adding nuances to that makes it a lot more difficult to really know up front what you're getting.

Another way would be to make sure that in addition to any extraordinary bonuses, going to either extreme also results in restrains, as options open to the other side are now blocked. This puts neutrally-minded players in the realm of BoringButPractical and/or CombatPragmatist -- perhaps (to some) less interesting, but certainly playable way of getting through the story.

** Whereas Good characters get a substantial mana cost decrease to Lightsided powers (like Heal) and a substantial mana cost increase to Darksided powers (like Force Lightning), and vice-versa for Evil characters, Neutral characters see no mana cost change to any force powers. While a literal case of this trope, Neutrality is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage for force powers.

** In addition, all of your characters gain access to a light side (50% reduction of damage taken for you and your companion for 12 seconds) or dark side ([[LifeDrain feed on half of your companion's health]] instantaneously) ability at the respective maximum alignments. You only need to reach max alignment on two characters to unlock each of them for all your characters on the server however; [[GameplayAndStorySegregation so a tier 5 dark sider can use the light side ability and vice versa]]. The two abilities share a cooldown.
** In ''Shadow of Revan'' there are some uncommon-quality lightsabers that you can only equip if your alignment is neutral (by any version's level cap, this is by having 5000 points in light and 5000 points in dark), but these are usually completely useless to most players.
** Storywise, alignment doesn't come up in conversation much anyway. But particularly if you're a Force user it will often make the observing NPC scratch their head in confusion. [[spoiler: Jaesa]] doesn't know what to make of you, meaning you can choose if you want to corrupt her or not when you recruit her, [[spoiler: Revan]] will approve though, and praises you on your moral flexibility. It makes for interesting role playing opportunities too; a bounty hunter who's purely in it for the money. An Agent who'll ShootTheDog if necessary but avoids senseless killing, etc.

*** The DialogueTree averts it - the top option is generally nice, the bottom option is usually the nasty one, and the central, "neutral" option is [[DeadpanSnarker snarky]], [[LovableRogue charming]], and gets all the best lines.
*** Played straight with the Friendship/Rivalry meters and the Mage-Templar conflict. Choosing not to go for full friendship or rivalry with companions deprives them of special abilities, removes romance options and certain story options -- [[spoiler:in Isabela's case she ditches you in Act II]] -- and ensures that they will side against you in the endgame if you pick a side they don't like. Being wishy-washy with the Mage-Templar conflict throughout the game will deny you access to sidequests in Act III. And in the end, you have no choice but to pick a side anyhow.

** Although ''[[VideoGame/DarkForcesSaga Dark Forces 2]]'', at least, is an aversion in multiplayer: only full Light- or Darksiders can use the most powerful Force powers, but neutral characters can use a balance of both, making them more versatile. The single player mode doesn't have this option.

* In both ''VideoGame/{{Overlord}}'' games, you must have 100% of either alignment to get the alternative endings. Otherwise you just get the vanilla ones.
* ''VideoGame/{{Fable}}'' series
** ''{{VideoGame/Fable|I}}'' is a notable aversion of this. While there are times where you have to make a flat Good or Evil decision, most of these are pretty clear-cut cases (will you spare the bandit or kill him?) and you don't recieve any penalties for staying neutral. The townsfolk will even comment on this, discussing your characters unpredictability. The ending of the Lost Chapters is pretty neutral, coming down to a straight fight between you and the villain.
** ''VideoGame/FableII'' likewise doesn't really penalise you for staying neutral, other than affecting prices, and even then you don't have to be a paragon of virtue or the scariest person alive to talk the townsfolk into giving you a better deal. There are also more neutral choices. At the start of the game, you have a chance to free some townsfolk or let them become slaves for a bribe. One of the options is to walk clean away from the situation altogether after the bandit attacks you anyway, leaving them in their cages for someone else to either let out or enslave. You've cleared the roadblock to Bowerstone, from your perspective it's [[BystanderSyndrome someone else's problem]]. And there is an explicitly neutral ending option.
* Averted in ''VideoGame/ShadowTheHedgehog''. Going down the "neutral" path means not helping either the heroes or Black Doom, but instead going after Dr. Eggman. The main conflict still goes on, but Shadow isn't much of a factor in it. Though, individual levels, especially those on the extreme ends of the map, can sometimes play this straight if there's no neutral option. And the game ''does'' take this trope's title literally- the good and evil goals add and subtract points based on your morality, while the neutral goals ignore morality and only judge your score by speed and rings collected.

* Averted in ''VideoGame/{{Catherine}}''. Neutrality is a perfectly viable option for the player from beginning to end, and the neutral path offers some very satisfying endings. This isn't surprising given how neutrality is usually handled in the game's [[VideoGame/ShinMegamiTensei parent series]].

** And Inverted in ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosUltimate'': [[spoiler: refusing to pick a side between [[LightIsNotGood Galeem]] and [[DarkIsEvil Dharkon]] results in the GoldenEnding.]]

* Averted in ''VideoGame/TheWitcher''. The neutral path is actually the path closest to the source material. The neutral path also opens up several rewards and cutscenes that are not available to the other extremes. Besides, [[GreyAndGrayMorality neither side is really good or evil]] so in the end it's a choice between three alternatives where the neutral choice is simply a choice not to choose (some quests have to be abandoned or avoided altogether to get the neutral path thus avoiding the {{Stupid Neutral}} problem).
* In the text-based MUD ''Dark & Shattered Lands'', there are gods of Good, Evil and Neutrality, and characters are required to pick one at character creation. Unfortunately for the neutrals, the whole game is an enormous battle between good and evil, and all of the useful options and killer clans are aligned as such.

* Averted in the ''Franchise/ShinMegamiTensei'' series, where the Neutral path is usually the hardest to obtain but [[EarnYourHappyEnding the only way to avoid humanity's annihilation or enslavement]]. Of course, [[HumansAreBastards depending on your viewpoint]], this may not qualify as the ''best'' ending...

** Of course, the neutral path is usually the hardest in SMT games. For most obvious choices in each game, a lawful character in a scenario might have to beat a chaos boss, while a chaos character has to beat a lawful boss. In neutral play throughs, you typically have to beat BOTH bosses to continue.

* {{Inverted|Trope}} in ''VideoGame/RecordOfAgarestWar'' (known as ''Agarest: Generations of War'' in certain areas, and on certain systems.) You're basically working for the embodiment of Balance, and one of the main challenges in the game is to stay Neutral - various choices will push you towards either Light or Dark, and if you go too far in either direction, you'll end up missing recruitable characters and other good stuff. On top of that, the best ending - and, indeed, most of the arguably 'good' endings, requires you to be Neutral at key points. So basically, there's No Points For Anything BUT Neutrality.

* ''VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic'' forces you to miss out on the top range upgrades for certain force powers if you aren't the right alignment. Good characters miss out on top-range bad powers like kill, Evil characters lose the best healing-related arts, and neutral characters don't get any of the top-tier abilities.
** Also, if you max out the karma meter in either direction, you get a substantial bonus to one of your stats. You get nothing at all for maintaining perfect neutrality aside from being able to cast Force abilities from either side of the spectrum without the opposite alignment penalties.
** This is why cross-class mods are very popular for Carth and Mission. They're actually ''higher'' on the KarmaMeter than the Jedi you recruit and get some interesting bonuses as a result.
** In the sequel (although it was made by Obisidan), your Pet Crystal will be super-powerful if you are neutral. This doesn't really make up for the loss of prestige classes, which require extremes, as you would still have a pretty decent crystal.
** Also in ''The Sith Lords'', both your PrestigeClass and access to the tomb on Korriban require you to be at least 75% aligned one way or the other.

[[folder:Bioware]]

[[folder:Star Wars]]
* In ''StarWars: [[VideoGame/DarkForcesSaga Dark Forces 2]]: [[VideoGame/DarkForcesSaga Jedi Knight]]'', as well as the sequels, [[ColonCancer Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy]], you can go down either the light side or the dark side.

** Averted in ''[[VideoGame/SuperSmashBros Super Smash Bros Melee]]'': The Switzerland bonus is won by going through a match without ever being attacked or attacking anyone else.

[[folder:First Person Shooters]]
* ''VideoGame/{{BioShock|1}}'' rewards you for saving the lives of little sisters instead of killing them for ADAM, but you only get the good ending for saving all of them; the 'neutral' finale is almost identical to the 'evil' one, and the difference in ADAM gained between the endings is also relatively negligible, given how you're given gifts of ADAM from saving groups of little sisters. The sequel has more moral options and more variations depending on your choices through the game. It has two neutral endings, in fact (chosen by PressXToNotDie). Saving one half of the little sisters and harvesting the other half also yields the most ADAM, provided one gets the Proud Parent tonic, which boosts ADAM gained from gathering from corpses.

[[folder:MMORPGs]]

** Unintentionally averted in ''VideoGame/{{Fallout 3}}'', where the karma meter has such a minuscule effect on game play that the player can pretty much do as he pleases with little penalty. There's one perk called "[[{{Mediator}} Impartial Mediator]]" which gives you a substantial Speech bonus as long as you retain neutral karma, presumably reflecting that most such players are fond of the "[[TalkingTheMonsterToDeath make everyone talk through their problems]]" solution, but it's not much compared to the bonuses of going to one extreme or the other. Quest paths and rewards do often go by the good vs. evil choices, which is a shame, although there's often an option to [[OnlyInItForTheMoney take a slight reduction in good karma in return for taking a material reward.]]

** Played with in ''VideoGame/DragonAgeII''. The DialogueTree averts it - the top option is generally nice, the bottom option is usually the nasty one, and the central, "neutral" option is [[DeadpanSnarker snarky]], [[LovableRogue charming]], and gets all the best lines.

* Averted in ''[[VideoGame/SuperSmashBros Super Smash Bros Melee]]'': The Switzerland bonus is won by going through a match without ever being attacked or attacking anyone else.

* ''Roleplay/DestroyTheGodmodder'': there are three alignments a player can choose. Anti-godmodder, Pro-godmodder, and neutral (good, evil, neutral). Anti-godmodder has tons of players, so the [=AG=] players have friends to back them up. The [=PGs=] also get their days in the sunlight since they have the godmodder on their team. Neutral gets nothing. Even the [=PGs=] get more team mates since neutrals don't really get to team up.
** supposedly there is an increase in power for the neutrals, but it only ever makes a significant difference if they're [[TheGMIsACheatingBastard controlled by the GM]].

* Played straight in ''VideoGame/ArcanumOfSteamworksAndMagickObscura'', where there is a gauge that measures whether you use technology or magic more. If you stray too far in either direction, things from the other side won't work with any reliability. If you remain neutral, you can use both magic and technology, but the spells will be notably weaker than when cast by a full mage and likewise inability to learn and use the best technology.

* Unintentionally averted in ''VideoGame/{{Fallout 3}}'' (but not in the first two games), where the karma meter has such a minuscule effect on game play that the player can pretty much do as he pleases with little penalty. There's one perk called "[[{{Mediator}} Impartial Mediator]]" which gives you a substantial Speech bonus as long as you retain neutral karma, presumably reflecting that most such players are fond of the "[[TalkingTheMonsterToDeath make everyone talk through their problems]]" solution, but it's not much compared to the bonuses of going to one extreme or the other. Quest paths and rewards do often go by the good vs. evil choices, which is a shame, although there's often an option to [[OnlyInItForTheMoney take a slight reduction in good karma in return for taking a material reward.]]

* Yahtzee regularly discusses this in ''WebAnimation/ZeroPunctuation''. His main gripes are that it feels like he's being forced to play the game twice, and that the two sides are often mutually exclusive. He even calls out games he otherwise likes on this, such as ''[=inFAMOUS=]'' and its sequel.
** Plus, the fact that instead of the player wondering about the moral implications of each choice given, there's only the choice between "Take the good/evil option since I took the good/evil option during the previous choice" or "Suck". In his opinion, such games might as well ask you once if you want to do a good or evil playthrough at the start of the game and be done with it.

* In ''VideoGame/{{Undertale}}'', the only "points" for neutrality are [[MultipleEndings one of a series]] of text epilogues explaining the fate of the Underground. Story and gameplay only has major changes if you dedicate yourself to a PacifistRun or to being an OmnicidalManiac.

** Also averted in ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosUltimate'': [[spoiler: refusing to pick a side between [[LightIsNotGood Galeem]] and [[DarkIsEvil Dharkon]] results in the GoldenEnding.]]

* ''VideoGame/{{BioShock|1}}'' rewards you for saving the lives of little sisters instead of killing them for ADAM, but you only get the good ending for saving all of them; the 'neutral' finale is almost identical to the 'evil' one. The sequel has more moral options and more variations depending on your choices through the game. Averted by its [[VideoGame/BioShock2 sequel]] which does have a neutral ending. Two in fact (chosen by PressXToNotDie).

** ''VideoGame/StarWarsTheOldRepublic'':

** ''VideoGame/StarWarsTheOldRepublic'': Certain relics and clothing can only be worn by people with the correct dark/light side rating; although the end-game relics are alignment neutral. In addition, all of your characters gain access to a light side (50% reduction of damage taken for you and your companion for 12 seconds) or dark side ([[LifeDrain feed on half of your companion's health]] instantaneously) ability at the respective maximum alignments. You only need to reach max alignment on two characters to unlock each of them for all your characters on the server however; [[GameplayAndStorySegregation so a tier 5 dark sider can use the light side ability and vice versa]]. The two abilities share a cooldown.
*** In ''Shadow of Revan'' there are some uncommon-quality lightsabers that you can only equip if your alignment is neutral (by any version's level cap, this is by having 5000 points in light and 5000 points in dark), but these are usually completely useless to most players.

* Also see ''KnightsOfTheOldRepublic'' in the Creator/BioWare section.

* ''VideoGame/{{BioShock|1}}'' rewards you for saving the lives of little sisters instead of killing them for ADAM, but you only get the good ending for saving all of them; the 'neutral' finale is almost identical to the 'evil' one. The sequel has more moral options and more variations depending on your choices through the game. Averted by its [[VideoGame/BioShock2 sequel]] which does have a neutral ending. Two in fact (chosen by a QuicktimeEvent).

* Averted in ''VideoGame/TheWitcher''. The neutral path is actually the path closest to the source material. The neutral path also opens up several rewards and cutscenes that are not available to the other extremes. Besides, [[GreyAndGreyMorality neither side is really good or evil]] so in the end it's a choice between three alternatives where the neutral choice is simply a choice not to choose (some quests have to be abandoned or avoided altogether to get the neutral path thus avoiding the {{Stupid Neutral}} problem).

* [[InvertedTrope Inverted]] in ''VideoGame/RecordOfAgarestWar'' (known as ''Agarest: Generations of War'' in certain areas, and on certain systems.) You're basically working for the embodiment of Balance, and one of the main challenges in the game is to stay Neutral - various choices will push you towards either Light or Dark, and if you go too far in either direction, you'll end up missing recruitable characters and other good stuff. On top of that, the best ending - and, indeed, most of the arguably 'good' endings, requires you to be Neutral at key points. So basically, there's No Points For Anything BUT Neutrality.

* Both played straight and [[InvertedTrope inverted]] in ''[[VideoGame/EuropaUniversalis Europa Universalis IV]]''. Muslims get bonuses for being very pious or very impious, but not in between. On the other hand, Buddhists benefit from being in the middle of their (literal) KarmaMeter. Too low and their armies get penalized as everyone [[ZeroPercentApprovalRating refuses to fight for such a jerk]]. Too high and their [[StupidGood diplomacy suffers as everyone else takes advantage of them]].

* ''[[VideoGame/DuneII Dune II: Battle for Arrakis]]'' features the noble Atreides, the dastardly Harkonnen...and the [[InformedAbility Clever]] [[OriginalGeneration Ordos]]. The Ordos, as it turns out, get new, heavier vehicles one or two turns ''after'' everyone else already does. Their unique units also tend to be inferior to those of the other factions.

* Yahtzee regularly discusses this in ''WebAnimation/ZeroPunctuation''. His main gripes are that it feels like he's being forced to play the game twice, and that the two sides are often mutually exclusive. He even calls out games he otherwise likes on this, such as ''inFAMOUS'' and its sequel.

* Averted in ''VideoGame/{{Catherine}}''. Neutrality is a perfectly viable option for the player from beginning to end, and the neutral path offers some very satisfying endings.

* Halfway through ''DarkSoulsII'', you can encounter two characters you've had friendly interactions with before, fighting each other to the death. If you choose to help one of them kill the other, the survivor will reward you with a key to their secret treasure stash. [[spoiler: Picking Creighton also nets you his armor set.]] If you don't do anything, one of them will kill the other (chosen randomly), and refuse to give you the key at all.

* Averted in ''TheWitcher''. The neutral path is actually the path closest to the source material. The neutral path also opens up several rewards and cutscenes that are not available to the other extremes. Besides, [[{{GreyAndGreyMorality}} neither side is really good or evil]] so in the end it's a choice between three alternatives where the neutral choice is simply a choice not to choose (some quests have to be abandoned or avoided altogether to get the neutral path thus avoiding the {{Stupid Neutral}} problem).

* Aversion: ''TheSuffering'' has a Good, a Bad and a Neutral ending. The sequel has a straight example -- it gives you upgrades to your SuperMode that vary depending on whether you're good or evil. There's only one neutral upgrade, and it's not all that impressive.

* ''VideoGame/MassEffect2'' characters who avoid going Paragon or Renegade lose key dialogue options which can be crucial to resolving conflicts without having to get into a fight, as your KarmaMeter directly determines what Charm or Intimidate options are available.

** Even further averted in ''VideoGame/MassEffect3'' since Paragon and Renegade now both add to the same bar, the Reputation bar, which can also be increased by getting non-alignment reputation points (which increase the size of the bar while maintaining the same Paragon to Renegade ratio).

* Thankfully averted in ''VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins''. The karma meter has been removed completely, replaced with personal approval meters for your companions. But you don't have to pander to them. You can also bribe them with gifts and act however you want to otherwise.

*** Played straight with the Friendship/Rivalry meters and the Mage-Templar conflict. Choosing not to go for full friendship or rivalry with companions deprives them of special abilities, removes romance options, [[spoiler:in Isabela's case she ditches you in Act II]], and ensures that they will side against you in the endgame if you pick a side they don't like. Being wishy-washy with the Mage-Templar conflict throughout the game will deny you access to sidequests in Act III (but active peacemaking gets you extras as they both try to sway you to their side). And in the end, you have no choice but to pick a side anyhow.

** The sequel (although it was made by Obisidan) averted this by make your Pet Crystal super-powerful if you are neutral. But, it's mostly non-averted: to get a prestige class, you need to go to the extremes...and you would still have a pretty decent crystal.

* In ''VideoGame/{{Undertale}}'', the only "points" for neutrality are [[MultipleEndings a series]] of text epilogues where [[spoiler: Sans]] talks about the fate of the Underground. Story and gameplay only has major changes if you dedicate yourself to a PacifistRun or to being an OmnicidalManiac.

* In ''VideoGame/{{Undertale}}'', the only "points" for neutrality are [[MultipleEnding a series]] of text epilogues where [[spoiler: Sans]] talks about the fate of the Underground. Story and gameplay only has major changes if you dedicate yourself to a PacifistRun or to being an OmnicidalManiac.

* In ''VideoGame/{{Undertale}}'', the only "points" for neutrality are seeing what [[spoiler: Sans]] has to say about the fate of the Underground. Story and gameplay only has major changes if you dedicate yourself to being an ActualPacifist or OmnicidalManiac.

* In ''TwilightHeroes'', there are bonuses for having a certain Reputation, but only if that reputation is at one end or the other of one of the two Karma scales (Honor and Selflessness).

* [[InvertedTrope Inverted]] in ''RecordOfAgarestWar'' (known as ''Agarest: Generations of War'' in certain areas, and on certain systems.) You're basically working for the embodiment of Balance, and one of the main challenges in the game is to stay Neutral - various choices will push you towards either Light or Dark, and if you go too far in either direction, you'll end up missing recruitable characters and other good stuff. On top of that, the best ending - and, indeed, most of the arguably 'good' endings, requires you to be Neutral at key points. So basically, there's No Points For Anything BUT Neutrality.