Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Spell My Name With An S has been cut/disambiguated.
Deleted line(s) 128 (click to see context) :
* SpellMyNameWithAnS: Gwenhwyfar, Lancelet, Morgaine, Morgause, Igraine.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Remamed
* DamselInDistress: Gwenhwyfar.
Deleted line(s) 53 (click to see context) :
* DistressedDamsel: Gwenhwyfar.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 52 (click to see context) from:
* It's fairly obvious to a modern reader that Priscilla dies of some form of cancer.
to:
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* It's fairly obvious to a modern reader that Priscilla dies of some form of cancer.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* CategoryTraitor: Kevin commits one specific act of treachery against Avalon when he steals the Holy Regalia and turns it over to Bishop Patricius, and that's what prompts Morgaine to have him killed. But his biggest betrayal, in Morgaine's eyes, is essentially being too friendly toward Christianity and going native in Arthur's court. The initial break in their relationship comes when Kevin consents to Vivianne being buried in a Christian cemetery, much to Morgaine's horror. Kevin initially defends himself by drawing parallels between Christian worship and pagan worship of the Goddess. Later, he argues that the time of Avalon is at an end, Christianity's rise is unstoppable, and it's better that the Holy Regalia be out in the world with humanity instead of being locked away in an unreachable, mist-shrouded Avalon.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 18 (click to see context) from:
* AerithAndBob: Running the gamut from familiar - Arthur - to medieval and acceptable - Lancelet, Morgaine - to alternate spellings - Gwenhwyfar - and then ''Kevin.''
to:
* AdaptationalProtagonist: Morgaine or Morgan Le Fay is almost always depicted as King Arthur's diabolical and sorcerous elder half-sister who sires Mordred after an incestuous encounter with him, and is almost always the default antagonist whenever Merlin or King Arthur is involved. However, in the mini-series, Morgaine is catapulted to the spotlight: she becomes an apprentice to the druids and witches of Avalon, follows pagan traditions, and becomes a sorceress in her own right. She still antagonizes Arthur, Merlin and Camelot, but out of need to preserve Britain's religious traditions against what she perceives to be a foreign invader: Christianity.
* AerithAndBob: Running the gamut from familiar- Arthur - --Arthur-- to medieval and acceptable - Lancelet, Morgaine - to alternate spellings - Gwenhwyfar - and then ''Kevin.''
* AerithAndBob: Running the gamut from familiar
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
"Nimue seduces Kevin" talk about Aerith and Bob...
Changed line(s) 2,3 (click to see context) from:
[[caption-width-right:300:Holy shit, that was my ''brother''?]]
to:
* BecomingTheMask: Nimue, on Morgaine's orders, uses magic to seduce Kevin, the Merlin. But she ends up falling for him for real--- [[MaybeMagicMaybeMundane it could be the sympathetic magic at work, or simply their own compatibility.]] [[spoiler: It doesn't stop her from delivering him to his death.]]
Changed line(s) 38 (click to see context) from:
%%* TheChessmaster: Viviane.
to:
** Later in the book, Morgaine tries her hand at it, particularly the destruction of Kevin by Nimue.
Changed line(s) 52,53 (click to see context) from:
%%* DressHitsFloor: (Miniseries version) Gwenhwyfar.
* {{Doorstopper}}: Even the paperback would make a decent doorstop or bludgeon in a pinch.
* {{Doorstopper}}: Even the paperback would make a decent doorstop or bludgeon in a pinch.
to:
* {{Doorstopper}}: Even the paperback would make a decent doorstop or bludgeon in a
* DrivenToSuicide: [[spoiler: Nimue]], who led Kevin to his destruction after [[BecomingTheMask falling in love with him.]]
Changed line(s) 65 (click to see context) from:
* FemaleMisogynist: Gwen insists that women should StayInTheKitchen, that is, while [[{{Hypocrite}} bending Arthur to her will]]. It's however implied that it's mostly her self-loathing caused by her inability of having a child, she once accuses God of hating women and shows frequently a repressed envy of Morgaine and Morgause's freedom.
to:
* FemaleMisogynist: Gwen insists that women should StayInTheKitchen, that is, while [[{{Hypocrite}} bending Arthur to her will]]. It's however implied that it's mostly her self-loathing caused by her inability of having to have a child, she once accuses God of hating women and shows frequently a repressed envy of Morgaine and Morgause's freedom.
Changed line(s) 123 (click to see context) from:
* StrongFamilyResemblance: Viviane, Morgaine, Lancelot and Mordred; Igraine, Morgause and Niniane; Uther and Arthur; Gwen, Elaine, Galahad and Nimue...
to:
* StrongFamilyResemblance: Viviane, Morgaine, Lancelot and Mordred; Mordred all resemble their Pictish lineage, fine-boned with dark coloring; Igraine, Morgause and Niniane; Niniane are blonde and tall; Uther and Arthur; Gwen, Elaine, Galahad and Nimue...
Added DiffLines:
* TreacheryIsASpecialKindOfEvil: Late in the book, Raven has a vision that Kevin, the Merlin of Britain, has betrayed Avalon by giving the Holy Grail itself to be a chalice for a Christian mass. Morgaine is beyond furious: she plots Kevin's capture and return to Avalon, where he will be given the ugly and drawn-out death of a traitor and blasphemer. [[spoiler: In the end, though, she decides to have him killed with one swift stroke.]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Deleted line(s) 87 (click to see context) :
%%* TheLostWoods: Prince Bright Night's domain.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Loads And Loads Of Characters is no longer a trope
Changed line(s) 101 (click to see context) from:
* MoralityKitchenSink: ''Nobody'' is pure good or evil in this book. Morgaine is an AntiHero, Viviane is just straight-up BlueAndOrangeMorality, Gwenhwyfar is a WellIntentionedExtremist, Arthur spends most of the book being manipulated, Patricius genuinely believes he's doing the right thing. Even Kevin, probably the least sympathetic of all the LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters, talks Morgaine out of what basically amounts to suicide; she notes that he's the only person who's never tried to manipulate her.
to:
* MoralityKitchenSink: ''Nobody'' is pure good or evil in this book. Morgaine is an AntiHero, Viviane is just straight-up BlueAndOrangeMorality, Gwenhwyfar is a WellIntentionedExtremist, Arthur spends most of the book being manipulated, Patricius genuinely believes he's doing the right thing. Even Kevin, probably the least sympathetic of all the LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters, characters, talks Morgaine out of what basically amounts to suicide; she notes that he's the only person who's never tried to manipulate her.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Changed line(s) 34,36 (click to see context) from:
* BrotherSisterIncest: [[spoiler:Morgaine]] conceives a child by Arthur, a boy named Gwydion ("bright one"). [[spoiler: Morgaine and Arthur did not know they were having sex with each other at the time. Morgaine hadn't seen her half-brother since he was 3, both were masked, and both were playing parts in a Sacred Marriage rite.]]
* CallingTheOldManOut: Mordred does this to [[spoiler: Morgause after Gareth is killed.]]
* TheChessmaster: Viviane.
* CallingTheOldManOut: Mordred does this to [[spoiler: Morgause after Gareth is killed.]]
* TheChessmaster: Viviane.
to:
* BrotherSisterIncest: BrotherSisterIncest:
** [[spoiler:Morgaine]] conceives a child by Arthur, a boy named Gwydion ("bright one"). [[spoiler: Morgaine and Arthur did not know they were having sex with each other at the time. Morgaine hadn't seen her half-brother since he was 3, both were masked, and both were playing parts in a Sacred Marriage rite.]]
* ** Meleager's attitude toward his "dear sister" Gwen seems disturbingly predatory. It culminates with [[spoiler:him raping her]]. And we never learn whether he was her half-brother or not.
%%* CallingTheOldManOut: Mordred does this to [[spoiler: Morgause after Gareth is killed.]]
* %%* TheChessmaster: Viviane.
** [[spoiler:Morgaine]] conceives a child by Arthur, a boy named Gwydion ("bright one"). [[spoiler: Morgaine and Arthur did not know they were having sex with each other at the time. Morgaine hadn't seen her half-brother since he was 3, both were masked, and both were playing parts in a Sacred Marriage rite.]]
%%* CallingTheOldManOut: Mordred does this to [[spoiler: Morgause after Gareth is killed.]]
Changed line(s) 50 (click to see context) from:
* DressHitsFloor: (Miniseries version) Gwenhwyfar.
to:
Changed line(s) 52,54 (click to see context) from:
* DoubleStandard: All over the place and lampshaded with X-rays.
* DrunkOnTheDarkSide: Mordred.
* TheDutifulSon: Arthur.
* DrunkOnTheDarkSide: Mordred.
* TheDutifulSon: Arthur.
to:
Changed line(s) 59 (click to see context) from:
* EvilMatriarch: Morgause.
to:
Deleted line(s) 72,79 (click to see context) :
* IncestIsRelative: Brace yourself.
** [[spoiler:Morgaine and Arthur]], who not only are half-siblings, but she was his mother figure in the childhood, conceive a child. [[BlueAndOrangeMorality Viviane]] sees no problem with that.
** Morgaine's love for Lancelot, who is her first cousin; and she also was his CoolBigSis a few years prior.
** [[spoiler:Arthur and Lancelot]], who are also first cousins, apparently got interested in each other during this ThreeWaySex with [[spoiler:Gwenhwyfar]]. [[spoiler:Lancelot]] in particular is confused about the nature of his feelings for [[spoiler:Arthur]].
** Lot tried to bed Morgaine, his wife's niece. Morgause tried to bed Lancelot, ''her own'' nephew. Lot and Morgause were truly BirdsOfAFeather.
** Meleager's attitude toward his "dear sister" Gwen seems disturbingly predatory. It culminates with [[spoiler:him raping her]]. And we never learn whether he was her half-brother or not.
** Niniane, the last of Taliesin's daughters, sleeps with Mordred, who is ''her father's great-grandson'', and then with Arthur, Morderd's father and her father's grandson.
** The examples of IncestSubtext and "both relatives sleeping with the same person" are simply too many to count.
** [[spoiler:Morgaine and Arthur]], who not only are half-siblings, but she was his mother figure in the childhood, conceive a child. [[BlueAndOrangeMorality Viviane]] sees no problem with that.
** Morgaine's love for Lancelot, who is her first cousin; and she also was his CoolBigSis a few years prior.
** [[spoiler:Arthur and Lancelot]], who are also first cousins, apparently got interested in each other during this ThreeWaySex with [[spoiler:Gwenhwyfar]]. [[spoiler:Lancelot]] in particular is confused about the nature of his feelings for [[spoiler:Arthur]].
** Lot tried to bed Morgaine, his wife's niece. Morgause tried to bed Lancelot, ''her own'' nephew. Lot and Morgause were truly BirdsOfAFeather.
** Meleager's attitude toward his "dear sister" Gwen seems disturbingly predatory. It culminates with [[spoiler:him raping her]]. And we never learn whether he was her half-brother or not.
** Niniane, the last of Taliesin's daughters, sleeps with Mordred, who is ''her father's great-grandson'', and then with Arthur, Morderd's father and her father's grandson.
** The examples of IncestSubtext and "both relatives sleeping with the same person" are simply too many to count.
Changed line(s) 81 (click to see context) from:
* IronLady: Viviane.
to:
Changed line(s) 85,87 (click to see context) from:
* KissingCousins: Morgaine's crush on Lancelot. [[spoiler:Though they never fully seal the deal.]]
* KnightInShiningArmor: Lancelot. Could practically be a TropeNamer.
* LawfulStupid: Arthur, sometimes.
* KnightInShiningArmor: Lancelot. Could practically be a TropeNamer.
* LawfulStupid: Arthur, sometimes.
to:
* KissingCousins: KissingCousins:
** Morgaine's crush on Lancelot. [[spoiler:Though they never fully seal the deal.]]
* ** [[spoiler:Arthur and Lancelot]], who are also first cousins, apparently got interested in each other during this ThreeWaySex with [[spoiler:Gwenhwyfar]]. [[spoiler:Lancelot]] in particular is confused about the nature of his feelings for [[spoiler:Arthur]].
%%* KnightInShiningArmor: Lancelot. Could practically be a TropeNamer.
* %%* LawfulStupid: Arthur, sometimes.
** Morgaine's crush on Lancelot. [[spoiler:Though they never fully seal the deal.]]
%%* KnightInShiningArmor: Lancelot. Could practically be a TropeNamer.
Changed line(s) 90,91 (click to see context) from:
* LivingMacguffin: Gwenhwyfar.
* TheLostWoods: Prince Bright Night's domain.
* TheLostWoods: Prince Bright Night's domain.
to:
Changed line(s) 94 (click to see context) from:
* MacGuffin: The Holy Grail.
to:
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Not So Different has been renamed, and it needs to be dewicked/moved
* MirroringFactions:
** One of the main themes of the book: “All gods are one God, and all goddesses are one Goddess.” Morgaine views the tradition of Christian cloistered nuns and monks with disgust, seeing it as a perversion of the natural order and a denial of fertility and life. However, she has no such qualms when it comes to her fellow priestess Raven, who, similarly to a nun, observes a vow of silence, lives in total seclusion and has vowed to remain a perpetual virgin. The text even says that Raven does this in order to better hear the Goddess and heighten her spiritual powers, which is precisely why nuns and monks remove themselves from the world and dedicate their lives to prayer: they are seen as closer to God, and even today many Christians write to nuns to ask for prayers of intercession.
** On a more positive note, Taliesin and Kevin are both great lords of the druids and respect the Christian God and see value in Christian traditions and rituals, even if they are not the ones they themselves know, and several characters state that it is neither wrong nor blasphemous to worship the Goddess in the form of the Virgin Mary.
** More generally, Morgaine despises the Christian faith as being narrow-minded, violent and having unnatural ideas about sex and gender roles, while at the same time being more or less a religious extremist who refuses to accept that Britain's religious traditions are changing, causing the deaths of several people in her attempts to preserve paganism, and belonging to a culture whose ideas about "normal" sex include things that we would consider incest or rape.
** Morgaine and Gwenhwyfar in general are actually portrayed really similarly despite Morgaine's disdain for her. As mentioned above, Morgaine denigrated Gwenhwyfar's religious extremism while ignoring her own. Both women spent most of their childhood in religious convents. Both were placed in some kind of union with Arthur for the purpose of conceiving an heir. Both were in love with Lancelet. Gwenhwyfar is barren. Morgaine is barren after her traumatic delivery with Mordred, and once estranged from him, is effectively childless (in a sense, Morgause is responsiblefor both of them being "childless"). Gwenhwyfar envies Morgaine's freedom and independence. Morgaine envies Gwenhwyfar's happy marriage and domestic life. Both women would likely have been much more content spending their lives in their respective convents, and both return to those convents at the end of their lives.
** One of the main themes of the book: “All gods are one God, and all goddesses are one Goddess.” Morgaine views the tradition of Christian cloistered nuns and monks with disgust, seeing it as a perversion of the natural order and a denial of fertility and life. However, she has no such qualms when it comes to her fellow priestess Raven, who, similarly to a nun, observes a vow of silence, lives in total seclusion and has vowed to remain a perpetual virgin. The text even says that Raven does this in order to better hear the Goddess and heighten her spiritual powers, which is precisely why nuns and monks remove themselves from the world and dedicate their lives to prayer: they are seen as closer to God, and even today many Christians write to nuns to ask for prayers of intercession.
** On a more positive note, Taliesin and Kevin are both great lords of the druids and respect the Christian God and see value in Christian traditions and rituals, even if they are not the ones they themselves know, and several characters state that it is neither wrong nor blasphemous to worship the Goddess in the form of the Virgin Mary.
** More generally, Morgaine despises the Christian faith as being narrow-minded, violent and having unnatural ideas about sex and gender roles, while at the same time being more or less a religious extremist who refuses to accept that Britain's religious traditions are changing, causing the deaths of several people in her attempts to preserve paganism, and belonging to a culture whose ideas about "normal" sex include things that we would consider incest or rape.
** Morgaine and Gwenhwyfar in general are actually portrayed really similarly despite Morgaine's disdain for her. As mentioned above, Morgaine denigrated Gwenhwyfar's religious extremism while ignoring her own. Both women spent most of their childhood in religious convents. Both were placed in some kind of union with Arthur for the purpose of conceiving an heir. Both were in love with Lancelet. Gwenhwyfar is barren. Morgaine is barren after her traumatic delivery with Mordred, and once estranged from him, is effectively childless (in a sense, Morgause is responsiblefor both of them being "childless"). Gwenhwyfar envies Morgaine's freedom and independence. Morgaine envies Gwenhwyfar's happy marriage and domestic life. Both women would likely have been much more content spending their lives in their respective convents, and both return to those convents at the end of their lives.
Changed line(s) 104,108 (click to see context) from:
* NotSoDifferent: One of the main themes of the book: “All gods are one God, and all goddesses are one Goddess.” Morgaine views the tradition of Christian cloistered nuns and monks with disgust, seeing it as a perversion of the natural order and a denial of fertility and life. However, she has no such qualms when it comes to her fellow priestess Raven, who, similarly to a nun, observes a vow of silence, lives in total seclusion and has vowed to remain a perpetual virgin. The text even says that Raven does this in order to better hear the Goddess and heighten her spiritual powers, which is precisely why nuns and monks remove themselves from the world and dedicate their lives to prayer: they are seen as closer to God, and even today many Christians write to nuns to ask for prayers of intercession.
** Viviane remarks that priestesses, who live secluded in communities of women and wear black robes and veils, are easily mistaken for nuns, and Morgaine sometimes doesn't bother to correct people when they think she is one.
** On a more positive note, Taliesin and Kevin are both great lords of the druids and respect the Christian God and see value in Christian traditions and rituals, even if they are not the ones they themselves know, and several characters state that it is neither wrong nor blasphemous to worship the Goddess in the form of the Virgin Mary.
** More generally, Morgaine despises the Christian faith as being narrow-minded, violent and having unnatural ideas about sex and gender roles, while at the same time being more or less a religious extremist who refuses to accept that Britain's religious traditions are changing, causing the deaths of several people in her attempts to preserve paganism, and belonging to a culture whose ideas about "normal" sex include things that we would consider incest or rape.
** Morgaine and Gwenhwyfar in general are actually portrayed really similarly despite Morgaine's disdain for her. As mentioned above, Morgaine denigrated Gwenhwyfar's religious extremism while ignoring her own. Both women spent most of their childhood in religious convents. Both were placed in some kind of union with Arthur for the purpose of conceiving an heir. Both were in love with Lancelet. Gwenhwyfar is barren. Morgaine is barren after her traumatic delivery with Mordred, and once estranged from him, is effectively childless (in a sense, Morgause is responsiblefor both of them being "childless"). Gwenhwyfar envies Morgaine's freedom and independence. Morgaine envies Gwenhwyfar's happy marriage and domestic life. Both women would likely have been much more content spending their lives in their respective convents, and both return to those convents at the end of their lives.
** Viviane remarks that priestesses, who live secluded in communities of women and wear black robes and veils, are easily mistaken for nuns, and Morgaine sometimes doesn't bother to correct people when they think she is one.
** On a more positive note, Taliesin and Kevin are both great lords of the druids and respect the Christian God and see value in Christian traditions and rituals, even if they are not the ones they themselves know, and several characters state that it is neither wrong nor blasphemous to worship the Goddess in the form of the Virgin Mary.
** More generally, Morgaine despises the Christian faith as being narrow-minded, violent and having unnatural ideas about sex and gender roles, while at the same time being more or less a religious extremist who refuses to accept that Britain's religious traditions are changing, causing the deaths of several people in her attempts to preserve paganism, and belonging to a culture whose ideas about "normal" sex include things that we would consider incest or rape.
** Morgaine and Gwenhwyfar in general are actually portrayed really similarly despite Morgaine's disdain for her. As mentioned above, Morgaine denigrated Gwenhwyfar's religious extremism while ignoring her own. Both women spent most of their childhood in religious convents. Both were placed in some kind of union with Arthur for the purpose of conceiving an heir. Both were in love with Lancelet. Gwenhwyfar is barren. Morgaine is barren after her traumatic delivery with Mordred, and once estranged from him, is effectively childless (in a sense, Morgause is responsiblefor both of them being "childless"). Gwenhwyfar envies Morgaine's freedom and independence. Morgaine envies Gwenhwyfar's happy marriage and domestic life. Both women would likely have been much more content spending their lives in their respective convents, and both return to those convents at the end of their lives.
to:
* NotSoDifferent: One of the main themes of the book: “All gods are one God, and all goddesses are one Goddess.” Morgaine views the tradition of Christian cloistered nuns and monks with disgust, seeing it as a perversion of the natural order and a denial of fertility and life. However, she has no such qualms when it comes to her fellow priestess Raven, who, similarly to a nun, observes a vow of silence, lives in total seclusion and has vowed to remain a perpetual virgin. The text even says that Raven does this in order to better hear the Goddess and heighten her spiritual powers, which is precisely why nuns and monks remove themselves from the world and dedicate their lives to prayer: they are seen as closer to God, and even today many Christians write to nuns to ask for prayers of intercession.
**NotSoDifferentRemark: Viviane remarks that priestesses, who live secluded in communities of women and wear black robes and veils, are easily mistaken for nuns, and Morgaine sometimes doesn't bother to correct people when they think she is one.
** On a more positive note, Taliesin and Kevin are both great lords of the druids and respect the Christian God and see value in Christian traditions and rituals, even if they are not the ones they themselves know, and several characters state that it is neither wrong nor blasphemous to worship the Goddess in the form of the Virgin Mary.
** More generally, Morgaine despises the Christian faith as being narrow-minded, violent and having unnatural ideas about sex and gender roles, while at the same time being more or less a religious extremist who refuses to accept that Britain's religious traditions are changing, causing the deaths of several people in her attempts to preserve paganism, and belonging to a culture whose ideas about "normal" sex include things that we would consider incest or rape.
** Morgaine and Gwenhwyfar in general are actually portrayed really similarly despite Morgaine's disdain for her. As mentioned above, Morgaine denigrated Gwenhwyfar's religious extremism while ignoring her own. Both women spent most of their childhood in religious convents. Both were placed in some kind of union with Arthur for the purpose of conceiving an heir. Both were in love with Lancelet. Gwenhwyfar is barren. Morgaine is barren after her traumatic delivery with Mordred, and once estranged from him, is effectively childless (in a sense, Morgause is responsiblefor both of them being "childless"). Gwenhwyfar envies Morgaine's freedom and independence. Morgaine envies Gwenhwyfar's happy marriage and domestic life. Both women would likely have been much more content spending their lives in their respective convents, and both return to those convents at the end of their lives.one.
**
** On a more positive note, Taliesin and Kevin are both great lords of the druids and respect the Christian God and see value in Christian traditions and rituals, even if they are not the ones they themselves know, and several characters state that it is neither wrong nor blasphemous to worship the Goddess in the form of the Virgin Mary.
** More generally, Morgaine despises the Christian faith as being narrow-minded, violent and having unnatural ideas about sex and gender roles, while at the same time being more or less a religious extremist who refuses to accept that Britain's religious traditions are changing, causing the deaths of several people in her attempts to preserve paganism, and belonging to a culture whose ideas about "normal" sex include things that we would consider incest or rape.
** Morgaine and Gwenhwyfar in general are actually portrayed really similarly despite Morgaine's disdain for her. As mentioned above, Morgaine denigrated Gwenhwyfar's religious extremism while ignoring her own. Both women spent most of their childhood in religious convents. Both were placed in some kind of union with Arthur for the purpose of conceiving an heir. Both were in love with Lancelet. Gwenhwyfar is barren. Morgaine is barren after her traumatic delivery with Mordred, and once estranged from him, is effectively childless (in a sense, Morgause is responsiblefor both of them being "childless"). Gwenhwyfar envies Morgaine's freedom and independence. Morgaine envies Gwenhwyfar's happy marriage and domestic life. Both women would likely have been much more content spending their lives in their respective convents, and both return to those convents at the end of their lives.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Addition
Added DiffLines:
** Morgaine and Gwenhwyfar in general are actually portrayed really similarly despite Morgaine's disdain for her. As mentioned above, Morgaine denigrated Gwenhwyfar's religious extremism while ignoring her own. Both women spent most of their childhood in religious convents. Both were placed in some kind of union with Arthur for the purpose of conceiving an heir. Both were in love with Lancelet. Gwenhwyfar is barren. Morgaine is barren after her traumatic delivery with Mordred, and once estranged from him, is effectively childless (in a sense, Morgause is responsiblefor both of them being "childless"). Gwenhwyfar envies Morgaine's freedom and independence. Morgaine envies Gwenhwyfar's happy marriage and domestic life. Both women would likely have been much more content spending their lives in their respective convents, and both return to those convents at the end of their lives.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* DiseaseByAnyOtherName: A brief passage of Gwenhwyfar reflecting on her childhood and later life indicates to the reader that she probably suffers from agoraphobia.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Deleted line(s) 108 (click to see context) :
* PlayingAgainstType: You'd think Creator/AnjelicaHuston would play the evil sister and Joan Allen would play the good one, instead of vice versa!
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 102 (click to see context) from:
* NeverMyFault: Mordred resents his biological parents because they abandoned him (despite the fact that Morgaine got him HappilyAdopted, and many other characters grew up in similar environments), and later Morgause who apparently "corrupted" him (we see them during his childhood and it appears like he is a cunning little brat whom she is trying to straighten out, ''and'' all of Morgause's biological sons turned out fine), and finally it's all bad because of this damn Avalon and it's {{Matriarchy}}!
to:
* NeverMyFault: Mordred resents his biological parents because they abandoned him (despite the fact that Morgaine got him HappilyAdopted, and many other characters grew up in similar environments), and later Morgause who apparently "corrupted" him (we see them during his childhood and it appears like he is a cunning little brat whom she is trying to straighten out, ''and'' all of Morgause's biological sons turned out fine), and finally it's all bad because of this damn Avalon and it's its {{Matriarchy}}!
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Deleted line(s) 38 (click to see context) :
* DawsonCasting: An extreme example, where 13-year-old Morgause at the beginning was played by Joan Allen, who was 44 and looked it.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Invoked by the fairy queen when [[spoiler: trying to convince Morgaine to give up her unborn child for adoption]]: the young stag must kill the King Stag. The chain of the prophecy is broken in the most tragic possible way [[spoiler: when Arthur and Mordred kill each other, leaving no one to become High King or act as the representative of the God.]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Averted with the Druids and priestesses of Avalon, whose religion requires them to study medicine, astronomy, music and history, and ultimately subverted in the case of Christianity, which serves to preserve the learning, spirituality and the last vestiges of goddess-worship into the Dark Ages and beyond.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* DeliberateValuesDissonance: Done both to the reader and in-universe: plenty of things which seem normal to the Dark Age-era British characters are distasteful or even taboo to modern sensibilities, while within the text, the characters’ wildly differing moral and cultural ideals cause conflict and friction.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 101 (click to see context) from:
* NotSoDifferent: One of the main themes of the book: “All gods are one God, and all goddesses are one Goddess.” Morgaine views the tradition of Christian cloistered nuns and monks with disgust, seeing it as a perversion of the natural order and a denial of fertility and life. However, she has no such qualms when it comes to her fellow priestess Raven, who, similarly to a nun, observes a vow of silence, lives in total seclusion and has vowed to remain a perpetual virgin. The text even says that Raven does this in order to better hear the Goddess and heighten her spiritual powers, which is precisely why nuns and monks remove themselves from the world and dedicate their lives to prayer: they are seen as closer to God, and even today many Christians write to nuns to ask for prayers of intercession. Viviane even remarks that priestesses, who live secluded in communities of women and wear black robes and veils, are easily mistaken for nuns, and Morgaine sometimes doesn't bother to correct people when they mistake her for a nun. On a more positive note, Taliesin and Kevin are both great lords of the druids and respect the Christian God and see value in Christian traditions and rituals, even if they are not the ones they themselves know, and several characters state that it is neither wrong nor blasphemous to worship the Goddess in the form of the Virgin Mary. More generally, Morgaine despises the Christian faith as being narrow-minded, violent and having unnatural ideas about sex and gender roles, while at the same time being more or less a religious extremist who refuses to accept that Britain's religious traditions are changing, causing the deaths of several people in her attempts to preserve paganism, and belonging to a culture whose ideas about "normal" sex include things that we would consider incest or rape.
to:
* NotSoDifferent: One of the main themes of the book: “All gods are one God, and all goddesses are one Goddess.” Morgaine views the tradition of Christian cloistered nuns and monks with disgust, seeing it as a perversion of the natural order and a denial of fertility and life. However, she has no such qualms when it comes to her fellow priestess Raven, who, similarly to a nun, observes a vow of silence, lives in total seclusion and has vowed to remain a perpetual virgin. The text even says that Raven does this in order to better hear the Goddess and heighten her spiritual powers, which is precisely why nuns and monks remove themselves from the world and dedicate their lives to prayer: they are seen as closer to God, and even today many Christians write to nuns to ask for prayers of intercession. intercession.
** Vivianeeven remarks that priestesses, who live secluded in communities of women and wear black robes and veils, are easily mistaken for nuns, and Morgaine sometimes doesn't bother to correct people when they mistake her for a nun. On think she is one.
**On a more positive note, Taliesin and Kevin are both great lords of the druids and respect the Christian God and see value in Christian traditions and rituals, even if they are not the ones they themselves know, and several characters state that it is neither wrong nor blasphemous to worship the Goddess in the form of the VirginMary. Mary.
** More generally, Morgaine despises the Christian faith as being narrow-minded, violent and having unnatural ideas about sex and gender roles, while at the same time being more or less a religious extremist who refuses to accept that Britain's religious traditions are changing, causing the deaths of several people in her attempts to preserve paganism, and belonging to a culture whose ideas about "normal" sex include things that we would consider incest or rape.
** Viviane
**On a more positive note, Taliesin and Kevin are both great lords of the druids and respect the Christian God and see value in Christian traditions and rituals, even if they are not the ones they themselves know, and several characters state that it is neither wrong nor blasphemous to worship the Goddess in the form of the Virgin
** More generally, Morgaine despises the Christian faith as being narrow-minded, violent and having unnatural ideas about sex and gender roles, while at the same time being more or less a religious extremist who refuses to accept that Britain's religious traditions are changing, causing the deaths of several people in her attempts to preserve paganism, and belonging to a culture whose ideas about "normal" sex include things that we would consider incest or rape.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 101 (click to see context) from:
* NotSoDifferent: Morgaine views the tradition of Christian cloistered nuns and monks with disgust, seeing it as a perversion of the natural order and a denial of fertility and life. However, she has no such qualms when it comes to her fellow priestess Raven, who, similarly to a nun, observes a vow of silence, lives in total seclusion and has vowed to remain a perpetual virgin. The text even says that Raven does this in order to better hear the Goddess and heighten her spiritual powers, which is precisely why nuns and monks remove themselves from the world and dedicate their lives to prayer: they are seen as closer to God, and even today many Christians write to nuns to ask for prayers of intercession.
to:
* NotSoDifferent: One of the main themes of the book: “All gods are one God, and all goddesses are one Goddess.” Morgaine views the tradition of Christian cloistered nuns and monks with disgust, seeing it as a perversion of the natural order and a denial of fertility and life. However, she has no such qualms when it comes to her fellow priestess Raven, who, similarly to a nun, observes a vow of silence, lives in total seclusion and has vowed to remain a perpetual virgin. The text even says that Raven does this in order to better hear the Goddess and heighten her spiritual powers, which is precisely why nuns and monks remove themselves from the world and dedicate their lives to prayer: they are seen as closer to God, and even today many Christians write to nuns to ask for prayers of intercession. Viviane even remarks that priestesses, who live secluded in communities of women and wear black robes and veils, are easily mistaken for nuns, and Morgaine sometimes doesn't bother to correct people when they mistake her for a nun. On a more positive note, Taliesin and Kevin are both great lords of the druids and respect the Christian God and see value in Christian traditions and rituals, even if they are not the ones they themselves know, and several characters state that it is neither wrong nor blasphemous to worship the Goddess in the form of the Virgin Mary. More generally, Morgaine despises the Christian faith as being narrow-minded, violent and having unnatural ideas about sex and gender roles, while at the same time being more or less a religious extremist who refuses to accept that Britain's religious traditions are changing, causing the deaths of several people in her attempts to preserve paganism, and belonging to a culture whose ideas about "normal" sex include things that we would consider incest or rape.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* TakeOurWordForIt: Invoked by Morgaine in the first-person narration between chapters; she states that she can’t tell the reader about her youth in Avalon training to be a priestess because whatever isn’t secret is obvious, and anything that isn’t obvious is secret.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* NotSoDifferent: Morgaine views the tradition of Christian cloistered nuns and monks with disgust, seeing it as a perversion of the natural order and a denial of fertility and life. However, she has no such qualms when it comes to her fellow priestess Raven, who, similarly to a nun, observes a vow of silence, lives in total seclusion and has vowed to remain a perpetual virgin. The text even says that Raven does this in order to better hear the Goddess and heighten her spiritual powers, which is precisely why nuns and monks remove themselves from the world and dedicate their lives to prayer: they are seen as closer to God, and even today many Christians write to nuns to ask for prayers of intercession.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* RelatedDifferentlyInTheAdaptation:
** Morgause is often depicted in the Myth/ArthurianLegend as Arthur and Morgan's sister. Here, she's their maternal aunt, also making her Igraine's sister rather than her daughter. This results in Morgause and Morgaine (as Morgan is called here) becoming {{Decomposite Character}}s to an extent (usually Morgan and Morgause get conflated); Morgaine is still the mother of Mordred and slept with her own brother to conceive him, but she's depicted far more sympathetically (she and Arthur suffered a case of SurpriseIncest) while Morgause is the scheming sorceress and wife of King Lot, who helps raise Mordred and manipulates him into hating Arthur.
** Morgause was originally Mordred's mother while here she's his great aunt, though she takes him as her ward and is still a mother figure to him.
** Morgause is often depicted in the Myth/ArthurianLegend as Arthur and Morgan's sister. Here, she's their maternal aunt, also making her Igraine's sister rather than her daughter. This results in Morgause and Morgaine (as Morgan is called here) becoming {{Decomposite Character}}s to an extent (usually Morgan and Morgause get conflated); Morgaine is still the mother of Mordred and slept with her own brother to conceive him, but she's depicted far more sympathetically (she and Arthur suffered a case of SurpriseIncest) while Morgause is the scheming sorceress and wife of King Lot, who helps raise Mordred and manipulates him into hating Arthur.
** Morgause was originally Mordred's mother while here she's his great aunt, though she takes him as her ward and is still a mother figure to him.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Deleted line(s) 56 (click to see context) :
* MrFanservice: In the miniseries, for sure: Accolon, Arthur, Lancelot.
Added DiffLines:
* MrFanservice: In the miniseries, for sure: Accolon, Arthur, Lancelot.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 14 (click to see context) from:
This was made into a miniseries in 2001, starring Julianna Margulies (''Series/{{ER}}'', ''Series/TheGoodWife'') as Morgaine, Creator/AnjelicaHuston (''Series/TheAddamsFamily'') as Viviane, and Joan Allen (''Film/{{Pleasantville}}'') as Morgause.
to:
This was made into a miniseries in 2001, starring Julianna Margulies (''Series/{{ER}}'', ''Series/TheGoodWife'') as Morgaine, Creator/AnjelicaHuston (''Series/TheAddamsFamily'') as Viviane, and Joan Allen Creator/JoanAllen (''Film/{{Pleasantville}}'') as Morgause.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 4,5 (click to see context) from:
Published in 1983, ''The Mists of Avalon'' is a novel by Creator/MarionZimmerBradley. It is notable among the [[MemeticMutation many, many variants]] in [[Myth/KingArthur Arthurian legend]] due to its approach -- the story is told not only through the eyes of a woman, but through the eyes of one of the biggest villains in the legends. The narrator is Morgaine (Morgan le Fay or Morgan of the Fairies), who tells Arthur's tale (and her own) against the backdrop of approaching war with Rome and the Saxons, as well as religious war as Christianity threatens to destroy Avalon and Goddess worship in Britain.
to:
Published in 1983, ''The Mists of Avalon'' is a novel by Creator/MarionZimmerBradley. It is notable among the [[MemeticMutation many, many variants]] in [[Myth/KingArthur Arthurian legend]] Myth/ArthurianLegend due to its approach -- the story is told not only through the eyes of a woman, woman but through the eyes of one of the biggest villains in the legends. The narrator is Morgaine (Morgan le Fay or Morgan of the Fairies), who tells Arthur's tale (and her own) against the backdrop of approaching war with Rome and the Saxons, as well as religious war war, as Christianity threatens to destroy Avalon and Goddess worship in Britain.
Changed line(s) 9,10 (click to see context) from:
* Morgaine: Protagonist, priestess of Avalon, and half sister to Arthur. Daughter of Gorlois, Duke of Cornwall, and Igraine.
to:
Changed line(s) 17,18 (click to see context) from:
!!This book contains examples of:
to:
Changed line(s) 103 (click to see context) from:
* PerspectiveFlip: The story of Myth/KingArthur from the viewpoint of the women, and particularly of the women who are more usually depicted as villains.
to:
* PerspectiveFlip: The story of Myth/KingArthur Myth/ArthurianLegend from the viewpoint of the women, and particularly of the women who are more usually depicted as villains.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
No YMMV items on non ymmv pages.
Deleted line(s) 80 (click to see context) :
** This is much, much HarsherInHindsight with the revelation that Marion Zimmer Bradley and her husband sexually abused their daughter.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Deleted line(s) 71 (click to see context) :
* GrandmaWhatMassiveHotnessYouHave: Morgause stays hot into her ''sixties'', and she lives in the reality, when a 20 years old woman is "not that young" and a woman in her thirties is treated like an old lady. [[spoiler:She appears to hit the wall at the end of the book. Though it might be that this particular guard just weren't into older women]].
Added DiffLines:
* SilverVixen: Morgause stays hot into her ''sixties'', and she lives in the reality, when a 20 years old woman is "not that young" and a woman in her thirties is treated like an old lady. [[spoiler:She appears to hit the wall at the end of the book. Though it might be that this particular guard just weren't into older women]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 91 (click to see context) from:
* LineageComesFromTheFather: Both averted and played straight; Arthur is considered the heir to the throne by most people through his father, but those who follow Avalon count him as king through his mother's royal blood of Avalon, a lineage which is traited through the mother.
to:
* LineageComesFromTheFather: Both averted and played straight; Arthur is considered the heir to the throne by most people through his father, but those who follow Avalon count him as king through his mother's royal blood of Avalon, a lineage which is traited traced through the mother.