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Dewicking Not So Different as it is now a disambig.


** Such is the irony of so many revolutionary movements. Revolutions start because people are upset with how things are run, with the ultimate goal of changing things. But being a revolutionary doesn't necessarily involve the skills to do a better job. So even when the revolution succeeds, it often devolves to "doing whatever it takes", which is often NotSoDifferent from what the previous guys were doing and sometimes worse. Hence why so many people in stable societies often distrust would-be revolutionaries.

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** Such is the irony of so many revolutionary movements. Revolutions start because people are upset with how things are run, with the ultimate goal of changing things. But being a revolutionary doesn't necessarily involve the skills to do a better job. So even when the revolution succeeds, it often devolves to "doing whatever it takes", which is often NotSoDifferent not so different from what the previous guys were doing and sometimes worse. Hence why so many people in stable societies often distrust would-be revolutionaries.
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[[folder:Liber8]]
* Why is Liber8 becoming more violent as of the finale and S2? Kagame already proved that Liber8 will only make gains in 2012 by explicitly refusing to kill people. Then he blew up an entire building! (Admittedly, it had been evacuated, but even so...) And now Sonya seems to be just as trigger-happy as Travis was, even if she's setting things up to deflect blame from Liber8 and onto other groups.

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[[folder:Liber8]]
[[folder:[=Liber8=]]]
* Why is Liber8 [=Liber8=] becoming more violent as of the finale and S2? Kagame already proved that Liber8 [=Liber8=] will only make gains in 2012 by explicitly refusing to kill people. Then he blew up an entire building! (Admittedly, it had been evacuated, but even so...) And now Sonya seems to be just as trigger-happy as Travis was, even if she's setting things up to deflect blame from Liber8 [=Liber8=] and onto other groups.



** Because for all the suggestions of a GreyAndGrayMorality, Liber8 are basically cartoon supervillains.
*** Agreed. The TV series doesn't seem to be getting into a serious exploration (yet, anyway) of what would drive Liber8 to be the left-wing counterpart to the corporate-backed "Union" of 2077; the audience seems to largely be expected to discount the StrawmanHasAPoint nature of Liber8.
*** As of Season 2, Episode 9, the show is starting to motivate why Liber8 was formed. [[spoiler:By 2035, factories (which are basically large corporate-run labor camps) were set up which "employ" zombie-ized lifetime workers, most of who have probably been run in for failure to pay excessive debts or other relatively minor offences.]] One can hardly imagine the matter to have improved much in 2077 - and it hasn't. Debts can still be piled on for almost any reason, and "subversive" material is an open-and-shut reason to lock someone up.

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** Because for all the suggestions of a GreyAndGrayMorality, Liber8 [=Liber8=] are basically cartoon supervillains.
*** Agreed. The TV series doesn't seem to be getting into a serious exploration (yet, anyway) of what would drive Liber8 [=Liber8=] to be the left-wing counterpart to the corporate-backed "Union" of 2077; the audience seems to largely be expected to discount the StrawmanHasAPoint nature of Liber8.
[=Liber8=].
*** As of Season 2, Episode 9, the show is starting to motivate why Liber8 [=Liber8=] was formed. [[spoiler:By 2035, factories (which are basically large corporate-run labor camps) were set up which "employ" zombie-ized lifetime workers, most of who have probably been run in for failure to pay excessive debts or other relatively minor offences.]] One can hardly imagine the matter to have improved much in 2077 - and it hasn't. Debts can still be piled on for almost any reason, and "subversive" material is an open-and-shut reason to lock someone up.



*** In the third Season, the effects of the "Piron Mandate" are beginning to be felt: Dillon blames Liber8 for almost all the major crimes occurring within the GVRD, even if evidence points to inter-corporate rivalries instead. It does not pay to question too closely those who provide funding for one's police department.
** Now we have an answer. The building was being used by pharmaceutical execs for a secret meeting to suppress cures. Good a reason as any for Liber8 to want them dead.
* Liber8 seems to have evolved into an anti-corporation in the truest sense. Instead of politicians being beholden to corporations and being their puppets, Liber8 is now making puppets of their own politicians. The natural question is, what's the point of Liber8 trying to avert a corporate-backed tyranny in 2077 if they're just going to create a mirror image of same? It's like the Bolsheviks essentially continuing the Tsarist repressive state apparatus instead of honestly doing away with it.
** No one said the revolution was perfect. Liber8 just can't collapse the institution. They have to make sure the alternative is better. And there's no indication of any long-term plans to run things behind the scenes. The guy was evidently picked because of how he would lead, not being forced to lead on their terms.

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*** In the third Season, the effects of the "Piron Mandate" are beginning to be felt: Dillon blames Liber8 [=Liber8=] for almost all the major crimes occurring within the GVRD, even if evidence points to inter-corporate rivalries instead. It does not pay to question too closely those who provide funding for one's police department.
** Now we have an answer. The building was being used by pharmaceutical execs for a secret meeting to suppress cures. Good a reason as any for Liber8 [=Liber8=] to want them dead.
* Liber8 [=Liber8=] seems to have evolved into an anti-corporation in the truest sense. Instead of politicians being beholden to corporations and being their puppets, Liber8 [=Liber8=] is now making puppets of their own politicians. The natural question is, what's the point of Liber8 [=Liber8=] trying to avert a corporate-backed tyranny in 2077 if they're just going to create a mirror image of same? It's like the Bolsheviks essentially continuing the Tsarist repressive state apparatus instead of honestly doing away with it.
** No one said the revolution was perfect. Liber8 [=Liber8=] just can't collapse the institution. They have to make sure the alternative is better. And there's no indication of any long-term plans to run things behind the scenes. The guy was evidently picked because of how he would lead, not being forced to lead on their terms.



* So, as of "3 Minutes to Midnight", [[spoiler:Liber8's members have been confronted with the realization that what they've been trying to do has been running into cross-purposes with "master plans" orchestrated by 2039!Kellog (who is the time traveller from 2077), plus the Freelancers in the person of Chen, and Alec Sadler in the persons of Kiera Cameron and Garza. As a result, the group has effectively imploded.]]
** With two more episodes left to go, [[spoiler:the Liber8 members must now find some new ''raison d'etre''; given that the timeline of 2077 is a warning of the abuses of corporate power, while the timeline of 2039 is a warning of the abuses of temporal manipulation, then given their admittedly worthy goal of trying to sharpen people's realizations of the dangers of corporate power in Canadian and American society, at least one of the time travellers has to be able to hit on the correct actions to take to generate a timeline which generates the exact opposite of a CrapsackWorld.]] The question is, will the Freelancers go along with it?
** [[spoiler:With the core nexus of the Freelancers dead or dying, all bets are off and it's just a question now of what the surviving time travellers will do or not do. It appears most of Liber8 + the future!Alec have decided to step out of the picture and lay low "Up North". Kiera and Brad are still in play, but whether they believe Liber8 and Carlos's prescient warnings enough to avert what Piron!Alec is doing is another matter.]]

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* So, as of "3 Minutes to Midnight", [[spoiler:Liber8's [[spoiler:[=Liber8's=] members have been confronted with the realization that what they've been trying to do has been running into cross-purposes with "master plans" orchestrated by 2039!Kellog (who is the time traveller from 2077), plus the Freelancers in the person of Chen, and Alec Sadler in the persons of Kiera Cameron and Garza. As a result, the group has effectively imploded.]]
** With two more episodes left to go, [[spoiler:the Liber8 [=Liber8=] members must now find some new ''raison d'etre''; given that the timeline of 2077 is a warning of the abuses of corporate power, while the timeline of 2039 is a warning of the abuses of temporal manipulation, then given their admittedly worthy goal of trying to sharpen people's realizations of the dangers of corporate power in Canadian and American society, at least one of the time travellers has to be able to hit on the correct actions to take to generate a timeline which generates the exact opposite of a CrapsackWorld.]] The question is, will the Freelancers go along with it?
** [[spoiler:With the core nexus of the Freelancers dead or dying, all bets are off and it's just a question now of what the surviving time travellers will do or not do. It appears most of Liber8 [=Liber8=] + the future!Alec have decided to step out of the picture and lay low "Up North". Kiera and Brad are still in play, but whether they believe Liber8 [=Liber8=] and Carlos's prescient warnings enough to avert what Piron!Alec is doing is another matter.]]



** They probably blamed it all on Liber8.

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** They probably blamed it all on Liber8.[=Liber8=].



*** Kiera's [[spoiler:"enthusiastic questioning" of Garza]] makes me wonder just ''what'' they teach in 2077 in the "Interrogation Methods" course. And the irony is, it probably all started because Liber8 hit 2012 in the first place, forcing Dillon to seek extra funding to do things "his way". Enter Mr. Escher, willing to hand out cash no questions asked, and all the rest seems to follow to the NAU of 2077.

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*** Kiera's [[spoiler:"enthusiastic questioning" of Garza]] makes me wonder just ''what'' they teach in 2077 in the "Interrogation Methods" course. And the irony is, it probably all started because Liber8 [=Liber8=] hit 2012 in the first place, forcing Dillon to seek extra funding to do things "his way". Enter Mr. Escher, willing to hand out cash no questions asked, and all the rest seems to follow to the NAU of 2077.



* Why does she keep banging on about "returning home" when she has to know it's almost impossible due to multiple timelines and the changes wrought by Liber8 and Kellog?

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* Why does she keep banging on about "returning home" when she has to know it's almost impossible due to multiple timelines and the changes wrought by Liber8 [=Liber8=] and Kellog?
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I want to cut the Main redirect.


** Oh, dear. You've fallen victim to thinking the OnlyAFleshWound trope is [[RealityIsUnrealistic realistic]]. TelevisionIsTryingToKillUs.

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** Oh, dear. You've fallen victim to thinking the OnlyAFleshWound trope is [[RealityIsUnrealistic realistic]]. TelevisionIsTryingToKillUs.JustForFun/TelevisionIsTryingToKillUs.
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** Why does anyone keep trying to accomplish a goal long after it has become hopeless?
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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Season 4 Kiera]]
* Why does she keep banging on about "returning home" when she has to know it's almost impossible due to multiple timelines and the changes wrought by Liber8 and Kellog?
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!!The TV series:
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** [[spoiler:They ''almost'' managed it. Until [[SmugSnake Kellog]] had to go and ruin it all.]]
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** [[spoiler:With the core nexus of the Freelancers dead or dying, all bets are off and it's just a question now of what the surviving time travellers will do or not do. It appears most of Liber8 + the future!Alec have decided to step out of the picture and lay low "Up North". Kiera and Brad are still in play, but whether they believe Liber8 and Carlos's prescient warnings enough to avert what Piron!Alec is doing is another matter.]]
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None

Added DiffLines:

* So, as of "3 Minutes to Midnight", [[spoiler:Liber8's members have been confronted with the realization that what they've been trying to do has been running into cross-purposes with "master plans" orchestrated by 2039!Kellog (who is the time traveller from 2077), plus the Freelancers in the person of Chen, and Alec Sadler in the persons of Kiera Cameron and Garza. As a result, the group has effectively imploded.]]
** With two more episodes left to go, [[spoiler:the Liber8 members must now find some new ''raison d'etre''; given that the timeline of 2077 is a warning of the abuses of corporate power, while the timeline of 2039 is a warning of the abuses of temporal manipulation, then given their admittedly worthy goal of trying to sharpen people's realizations of the dangers of corporate power in Canadian and American society, at least one of the time travellers has to be able to hit on the correct actions to take to generate a timeline which generates the exact opposite of a CrapsackWorld.]] The question is, will the Freelancers go along with it?
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None


**** Also, as of S2E9, the first glimmerings of the corporate-dominated future of 2077 can be seen. [[spoiler:Mr. Escher is personally contributing funds to the Vancouver Police Department.]] As of S2E11, the branch of the VPD under Dillon's control is for all intents and purposes Piron's (that is, Escher's) private army.

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**** Also, as of S2E9, the first glimmerings of the corporate-dominated future of 2077 can be seen. [[spoiler:Mr. Escher is personally contributing funds to the Vancouver Police Department.]] As of S2E11, the branch of the VPD under Dillon's control is for all intents and purposes Piron's (that is, Escher's) private army. In Season 3, at least one character explicitly makes this connection during police questioning.
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**** In the third Season, the effects of the "Piron Mandate" are beginning to be felt: Dillon blames Liber8 for almost all the major crimes occurring within the GVRD, even if evidence points to inter-corporate rivalries instead. It does not pay to question too closely those who provide funding for one's police department.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


**** As of Season 2, Episode 9, the show is starting to motivate why Liber8 was formed. [[spoiler:By 2035, factories (which are basically large corporate-run labor camps) were set up which "employ" zombie-ized lifetime workers, most of who have probably been run in for failure to pay excessive debts or other relatively minor offences.]] One can hardly imagine the matter to have improved much in 2077.

to:

**** As of Season 2, Episode 9, the show is starting to motivate why Liber8 was formed. [[spoiler:By 2035, factories (which are basically large corporate-run labor camps) were set up which "employ" zombie-ized lifetime workers, most of who have probably been run in for failure to pay excessive debts or other relatively minor offences.]] One can hardly imagine the matter to have improved much in 2077.2077 - and it hasn't. Debts can still be piled on for almost any reason, and "subversive" material is an open-and-shut reason to lock someone up.
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** Presumably they'll now be dressing differently and have different hair to make it easier to tell them apart, since NearFuture(?)!Alec's wounds are healing.
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**** Supplemental canon material suggests that this ViciousCycle in fact, happened as a country named Cascadia forms out of the remnants of West-Coast North America after years of ecological crises. Farmers in particular become targets of agribusiness and the Corporate Congress by the 2060s, which neatly dies back to Roland being a farmer critical of the 2012 banking and business sectors.
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** Past!Alec is running Piron.

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