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*** Correct - GRRM had intended the amount of time that passed to equate to ''seven'' years by the start of Book 4, not two. It was intended that way ''specificaly'' so that the Stark children could grow up a little bit. Unfortunately, it made writing the story too difficult since the plot would require many flashbacks to explain certain plot elements from the passed five years, and so Martin is trying to write the story differently now (IIRC, a passing line in AFfC is that a certain character had thought that Westeros would 'have [[LampshadeHanging five years of peace]] before Cersei messed things up'). GRRM has since stated that he wishes he'd planned, at the start, for the Stark children's ages to be a little higher since their present-day youth is complicating the storyline and making it hard to work on. Rickon will ''not'' disappear for good, and will most likely have some major role to play later (If you look carefully, a character who survives gruelling ordeals in this series is unlikely to die without ''at least'' fulfilling some major character arc first), but who knows when he'll be back? After all, it's not easy to give a 4-5 year-old a prominent role in a story where murdering rapists are allowed to smash the heads of babies with their bear hands and live long enough to tell others about it.
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* OK, I ''know'' this is going to sound weak, and snivelly, and pathetic, but I have to complain about it somewhere ... The dragons bug me. The specifically ''all-male'' dragons, which GRRM has come up with, contradicting ''everything'' we accept about dragons. ''Why'' are his dragons bizarrely male hermaphrodites?! Is it because he wanted to ive them to Dany, have them all named for the three men in her lives, and specifically be the ''only'' dragons left in the whoe world? Because I honestly swear, ''nothing'' else in the series bugs me, nothing at all. ''Why, GRRM?'' WHY DID YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING SO SACRELIGIOUSLY RUINOUS AS TO PLAY OFF SOME COCK-AND-BULL PREJUDICE REGARDING THE DRAGONS, BY ''NOT'' MAKING THEM MALE-FEMALE LIKE EVERY OTHER SPECIES - LIKE THEY ARE ''CLEARLY'' SUPPOSED TO BE?! WHY DID THEY HAVE TO BE ''MALE'' SPECIFICALLY, IF YOU DID - SINCE WHEN IS ''MALE'' GENDER NEUTRAL?!?! Ahem ... I have said my peace. I refuse to forgive Martin for this one sacrilege. He can cull all the main characters he wants - heck, he can make [[CompleteMonster Gregor Clegane]] come out on top for all I care - but I will ''never'' forgive him for denying female dragons the right to exist in his world. If I really ''were'' as childish as my rant implied, I would write a story just like that - where the most evil character wins, in a world where dragons are ''not'' limited to just one sex - but I have enough moral standards to simply pretend, in my mind, that that particular aspect of his stories is none-existant. That's the best you'll get from me. La-di-da-di-da-di-daaaaaaaa ...!
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*** I'd disagree. First off, the war HAS ended, it's just that a follow up war is approaching fast. Second, this is all based on the War of the Roses, a period where there was alot of political instability, so it's not the kind of war most parts of the world, with their stable governments, would have, which may explain your bafflement as to how the war is playing out the way it has. And Third, I'd really disagree with the notion that the politics is a prologue to the war. GRRM said that while the books expanded past what he thought, the basic storyline is the same. The politics ARE the story. What does that make the monsters that follow? Who knows, they haven't arrived yet. That's how unpredictable this series is, they could be the epilogue of the story, not the main plot. And I'd REALLY not be expecting any sort of great hero to magically appear in this series.
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**** I think a big part of that is how iconic the war and political aspect of the story is. What was meant to be the prologue took on a life of its own. My theory as to why A Dance with Dragons has taken so long has always been that its virtually impossible to bring Dany or The Others into the main storyline without it seeming like a [[Deux Ex Machina]] of epic proportions. I'm very interested to see how the story pans out, and hope it doesn't degenerate into a generic fantasy story (Of course, with a writer of Martin's talents, I doubt that'll happen.).
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**** I think a big part of that is how iconic the war and political aspect of the story is. What was meant to be the prologue took on a life of its own. My theory as to why A Dance with Dragons has taken so long has always been that its virtually impossible to bring Dany or The Others into the main storyline without it seeming like a [[Deux Ex Machina]] of epic proportions. Plus, I'm very interested to see how pretty sure part of the story pans out, and hope it doesn't degenerate into point is that the Nobles are too busy killing each other to possibly stand a generic fantasy story (Of course, with a writer of Martin's talents, I doubt that'll happen.). chance against the forces gathering in the North.
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**** I think a big part of that is how iconic the war and political aspect of the story is. What was meant to be the prologue took on a life of its own. My theory as to why A Dance with Dragons has taken so long has always been that its virtually impossible to bring Dany or The Others into the main storyline without it seeming like a [[Deux Ex Machina]] of epic proportions. I'm very interested to see how the story pans out, and hope it doesn't degenerate into a generic fantasy story (Of course, with a writer of Martin's talents, I doubt that'll happen.).
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*****IIRC Those two weren't actually said to him but were her internal commentary, which is what POV chapters are for.
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*** I mean that we're four books into this story, and the war still is going on. We're four books in and Dany hasn't reach Westeros, the Wall hasn't fallen, the Others really haven't appeared yet, and the great hero isn't around. The war plotline was just the prologue, the epic fantasy adventure is what's supposed to come next. But now the whole story seems to be dragging its feet, almost trying to avoid it. And I mean, really, how many betrayals and factions and invasions and pillages can a single war have? This can't go on forever, and right now its looking like it just might.
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** We don't see her hanged. Her last chapter says she cried out a word as they were about the hang her-- maybe it was her salvation?
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** This doesn't seem to be that kind of story. It's written to be very lifelike, so there are going to be a lot of plot threads that simply don't end up going anywhere, because life is often just like that. There isn't really a defined good and evil and nothing really to achieve beyond what any specific character wants to achieve and no real 'point' the author wants to get across. The Noble Houses simply go on with their lives, making grabs for power, while some monstrous force is beginning to advance from the walls and Dany learns the ways of a conqueror. It's very entertaining because this makes it highly unpredictable, characters are awesome, and it's all very exciting. Pretty much anything can happen. I wouldn't put it passed GRRM to have the Others actually win in the end, just because in real life, it's not guaranteed that humanity will always come out on top. I'm not sure what you mean by lack of progress. Lots has happened with every character. And he didn't just decide to write filler, he had planned to have a time skip, but after writing most of it, he realized that too much of the story took place in flashbacks so he had to go back and rewrite it. Events remain largely the same as they would have.
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***** Also, going to treat with stannis and renly and then chiding them as though they were children. Stannis, good for him, calls her on this
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***** Also, going to treat with stannis Stannis and renly Renly and then chiding them as though they were children. Stannis, good for him, calls her on this
this.
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** Or they could just look at the stars. If they have similar zodiac-like constellations, it would be a small matter for the maestars to construct a calendar based on which constellation is overhead at midnight, creating a very familiar year-based unit without worrying about the seasons. Since seasons can last decades, they're a rather impractical way of measuring years.
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** He kicked the arses of several knights/men-at-arms one-on-many at the Red Wedding, and splattered some of Gregor's goons (Polliver and the Ticker IIRC, whilst pissed no less) some time later (okay, Arya helped, but still...). And he reached the Final of the Hand's Tourney at King's Landing, defeating Jaime in the semi, who we know is bloody good at the whole fighting thing. All in all, the Hound is proven to be a double-hard bastard that no-one really wants to mess with.
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** He kicked the arses of several knights/men-at-arms one-on-many at the Red Wedding, and splattered some of Gregor's goons (Polliver and the Ticker Tickler IIRC, whilst pissed no less) some time later (okay, Arya helped, but still...). And he reached the Final of the Hand's Tourney at King's Landing, defeating Jaime in the semi, who we know is bloody good at the whole fighting thing. All in all, the Hound is proven to be a double-hard bastard that no-one really wants to mess with.
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* He kicked the arses of several knights/men-at-arms one-on-many at the Red Wedding, and splattered some of Gregor's goons (whilst pissed) some time later (okay, Arya helped, but still...). And he reached the Final of the Hand's Tourney at King's Landing, defeating Jaime in the semi, who we know is bloody good at the whole fighting thing. All in all, the Hound is proven to be a double-hard bastard
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* He kicked the arses of several knights/men-at-arms one-on-many at the Red Wedding, and splattered some of Gregor's goons (whilst pissed) some time later (okay, Arya helped, but still...). And he reached the Final of the Hand's Tourney at King's Landing, defeating Jaime in the semi, who we know is bloody good at the whole fighting thing. All in all, the Hound is proven to be a double-hard bastard
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**** Or, considering the source, he could perhaps be lying about the depth of his involvement
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***** Also, going to treat with stannis and renly and then chiding them as though they were children. Stannis, good for him, calls her on this
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** Maybe they actually do have regular seasons, but when "Winter" comes it causes summer to be shorter and much cooler, and when "Summer" comes, it causes winters to be shorter and much warmer.
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**** Since when has that stopped people? Either one?
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** As long as we're on the topic of rape, can Martin give it a ''rest'' already? It's a CrapsackWorld, we ''get it.'' It's not necessary to fill every single chapter with a graphic depiction of rape, pillage, torture and gory murder. For me the final straw was one of the chapter's from Bran's POV. During an otherwise civilized, peaceful chapter (albeit not an entirely pleasant one, given Bran's depression) we're out of the blue, over the dinner table, treated to a colorful rendition of how the nice old lady we met a few chapters ago was taken captive and imprisoned in a tower, starved, and ate her own fingers before she died. What the ''fuck'' was the point of that? It's like Martin's afraid someone will revoke his Grimdark license if he doesn't maintain an average of one atrocity per chapter.
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* Brienne bugs me. Oh my God, that character could write the book on the Shoot the Shaggy Dog trope. For ''this'' we gave up Tyrion and Danerys' POV?
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**Even Martin would agree with you, since he's said he had plans for gaps in the sotry. But unfortunately, he has chosen a different direction, and decided to write what amounts to filler.
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* Is this story ever going to go anywhere? Don't get me wrong, I loved all four of the current books. But its just been nothing but endless bloodshed and political intrigue and death and violence. I mean, that was fine for Books 2 and 3, but by Book 4 you'd think we'd be past all this and be getting to the point of the story, or at least be given a sign that some progress is being made. We all know this war is only windowdressing for the schemes of the people manipulating the Noble Houses, but what are they trying to achieve? Where is the ultimate battle of good against evil? What's the deal with Beyond the Wall? Will Dany ever reach Westeros? Will the Stark children ever meet up again and use their wolf talents? Its been thousands of pages and we still have absolutely no idea what is going on here, which is exciting and all, but it we still haven't gotten to the damn point! I don't even know if George R. R. Martin can even tie all this together in just three books. Things just can't keep on getting worse and worse and worse, can they? The story needs to relieve this war plotline and move on to the fantasy plotline already!
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*** Lord Frey is, obviously, pissed. The last thing you want to do is annoy somebody who never forgives anybody. There's details about Lord Frey getting a marriage contract from Robb's uncle Edmure instead, but what's ''really'' important is local MagnificentBastard Tywin Lannister gets involved. First Tywin contacts the ObviouslyEven Roose Bolton and convinces him to FaceHeelTurn; Bolton then issues phony orders (in Robb's name) which lead a decent portion of Robb's army into a trap. Second, by sheer coincidence, Lord Balon Greyjoy has conquered the North while Robb was away; reclaiming it is Robb's main objective now. Third, Tywin gets in touch with Lord Frey and talks to him about just ''how'' angry he is. Finally, some readers have interpreted the text to suggest that Robb's taking of The Crag was a FalseFlagOperation, and Jeyne ''ordered'' to give herself to him; whether or not this is true, the Westerlings certainly went straight to Lord Tywin behind her back and agreed to serve as TheMole. Long story short, ''Robb needs Lord Frey'', both his men and his bridge, and so will accept any conditions Frey sets. One of them is that Robb attend Edmure's wedding.
*** The Red Wedding itself is when Edmure takes Roslin Frey to wife. Once the two of them go off for the consummation, Frey turns the tables by [[WhamMoment having his soldiers attack the Northmen]]. [[LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt Almost all of Robb's bannermen are cut down around him]]; [[HolyShitQuotient Robb himself gets run through by Roose Bolton]], and [[BeyondTheImpossible Catelyn Stark has her throat cut]] after having a (totally justified) HeroicBSOD and DespairEventHorizon. All of this was such a DownerEnding that GRRM had to leave these chapters until last.
*** The Red Wedding itself is when Edmure takes Roslin Frey to wife. Once the two of them go off for the consummation, Frey turns the tables by [[WhamMoment having his soldiers attack the Northmen]]. [[LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt Almost all of Robb's bannermen are cut down around him]]; [[HolyShitQuotient Robb himself gets run through by Roose Bolton]], and [[BeyondTheImpossible Catelyn Stark has her throat cut]] after having a (totally justified) HeroicBSOD and DespairEventHorizon. All of this was such a DownerEnding that GRRM had to leave these chapters until last.
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*** Lord Frey is, obviously, pissed. The last thing you want to do is annoy somebody who never forgives anybody. There's details about Lord Frey getting a marriage contract from Robb's uncle Edmure instead, but what's ''really'' important is local MagnificentBastard Tywin Lannister gets involved. First Tywin contacts the ObviouslyEven ObviouslyEvil Roose Bolton and convinces him to FaceHeelTurn; Bolton then issues phony orders (in Robb's name) which lead a decent portion of Robb's army into a trap. Second, by sheer coincidence, Lord Balon Greyjoy has conquered the North while Robb was away; reclaiming it is Robb's main objective now. Third, Tywin gets in touch with Lord Frey and talks to him about just ''how'' angry he is. Finally, some readers have interpreted the text to suggest that Robb's taking of The Crag was a FalseFlagOperation, and Jeyne ''ordered'' to give herself to him; whether or not this is true, the Westerlings certainly went straight to Lord Tywin behind her back and agreed to serve as TheMole. Long story short, ''Robb needs Lord Frey'', both his men and his bridge, and so will accept any conditions Frey sets. One of them is that Robb attend Edmure's wedding.
*** The Red Wedding itself is when Edmure takes Roslin Frey to wife. Once the two of them go off for the consummation, Frey turns the tables by[[WhamMoment [[WhamEpisode having his soldiers attack the Northmen]]. [[LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt Almost all of Robb's bannermen are cut down around him]]; [[HolyShitQuotient Robb himself gets run through by Roose Bolton]], and [[BeyondTheImpossible Catelyn Stark has her throat cut]] after having a (totally justified) HeroicBSOD and DespairEventHorizon. All of this was such a DownerEnding that GRRM had to leave these chapters until last.
*** The Red Wedding itself is when Edmure takes Roslin Frey to wife. Once the two of them go off for the consummation, Frey turns the tables by
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** Because it's one of the main plotlines of the series. That's like asking why nobody ever elaborates on Frodo's journey through Mordor. But, if you must, here's the whole story:
*** At the beginning of the war, Robb needs to win the allegiance of a GrumpyOldMan named Walder Frey, who became powerful because his castle includes the only bridge across a major river. "The Late" Lord Frey has always been a spiteful man, who doesn't like that the other houses see him as an upstart, and he figures that if he can be father to a king, people will treat him with more respect. So part of the price he sets for his banner is that Robb marry one of his daughters.
*** Later in the war, Robb takes his army raiding in Lannister territory. There they [[StormingTheCastle storm a castle]] called The Crag; they win, but Robb takes an arrow wound and is laid up for a while. During that time, the conquered house, the Westerlings, show SacredHospitality to their conquerors; in particular, their daughter, Jeyne, takes custody of Robb. Then Robb gets the letter from Winterfell that his younger brothers are dead; he's there, wounded, probably crying, and Jeyne is too. OneThingLedToAnother, and now Robb feels [[HonorBeforeReason constrained by honor]] to marry Jeyne. "You Break It, You Buy It," especially where maidenheads are concerned. (Plus, the fact that they're genuinely attracted to each other... [[StarCrossedLovers Well, whatever]].)
*** Lord Frey is, obviously, pissed. The last thing you want to do is annoy somebody who never forgives anybody. There's details about Lord Frey getting a marriage contract from Robb's uncle Edmure instead, but what's ''really'' important is local MagnificentBastard Tywin Lannister gets involved. First Tywin contacts the ObviouslyEven Roose Bolton and convinces him to FaceHeelTurn; Bolton then issues phony orders (in Robb's name) which lead a decent portion of Robb's army into a trap. Second, by sheer coincidence, Lord Balon Greyjoy has conquered the North while Robb was away; reclaiming it is Robb's main objective now. Third, Tywin gets in touch with Lord Frey and talks to him about just ''how'' angry he is. Finally, some readers have interpreted the text to suggest that Robb's taking of The Crag was a FalseFlagOperation, and Jeyne ''ordered'' to give herself to him; whether or not this is true, the Westerlings certainly went straight to Lord Tywin behind her back and agreed to serve as TheMole. Long story short, ''Robb needs Lord Frey'', both his men and his bridge, and so will accept any conditions Frey sets. One of them is that Robb attend Edmure's wedding.
*** The Red Wedding itself is when Edmure takes Roslin Frey to wife. Once the two of them go off for the consummation, Frey turns the tables by [[WhamMoment having his soldiers attack the Northmen]]. [[LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt Almost all of Robb's bannermen are cut down around him]]; [[HolyShitQuotient Robb himself gets run through by Roose Bolton]], and [[BeyondTheImpossible Catelyn Stark has her throat cut]] after having a (totally justified) HeroicBSOD and DespairEventHorizon. All of this was such a DownerEnding that GRRM had to leave these chapters until last.
*** End result? House Bolton becomes the Warden of the North. House Frey becomes the high lords of the Riverlands, with the Tullys attainted and one of Frey's sons getting Riverrun instead. House Stark has for all intents and purposes ceased to exist, with all its members either dead or [[DeathFakedForYou having their deaths faked for them]]. Robb's body has its head chopped off and the head of his direwolf sewed into it. Catelyn's body is dragged from the river and revived by Beric Dondarrion, and she [[CameBackWrong comes back totally wrong]]. [[CloserToEarth Only the women]] remain loyal: Roslin Frey sticks by her new husband Edmure, and Jeyne is obviously distraught over Robb's death.
*** At the beginning of the war, Robb needs to win the allegiance of a GrumpyOldMan named Walder Frey, who became powerful because his castle includes the only bridge across a major river. "The Late" Lord Frey has always been a spiteful man, who doesn't like that the other houses see him as an upstart, and he figures that if he can be father to a king, people will treat him with more respect. So part of the price he sets for his banner is that Robb marry one of his daughters.
*** Later in the war, Robb takes his army raiding in Lannister territory. There they [[StormingTheCastle storm a castle]] called The Crag; they win, but Robb takes an arrow wound and is laid up for a while. During that time, the conquered house, the Westerlings, show SacredHospitality to their conquerors; in particular, their daughter, Jeyne, takes custody of Robb. Then Robb gets the letter from Winterfell that his younger brothers are dead; he's there, wounded, probably crying, and Jeyne is too. OneThingLedToAnother, and now Robb feels [[HonorBeforeReason constrained by honor]] to marry Jeyne. "You Break It, You Buy It," especially where maidenheads are concerned. (Plus, the fact that they're genuinely attracted to each other... [[StarCrossedLovers Well, whatever]].)
*** Lord Frey is, obviously, pissed. The last thing you want to do is annoy somebody who never forgives anybody. There's details about Lord Frey getting a marriage contract from Robb's uncle Edmure instead, but what's ''really'' important is local MagnificentBastard Tywin Lannister gets involved. First Tywin contacts the ObviouslyEven Roose Bolton and convinces him to FaceHeelTurn; Bolton then issues phony orders (in Robb's name) which lead a decent portion of Robb's army into a trap. Second, by sheer coincidence, Lord Balon Greyjoy has conquered the North while Robb was away; reclaiming it is Robb's main objective now. Third, Tywin gets in touch with Lord Frey and talks to him about just ''how'' angry he is. Finally, some readers have interpreted the text to suggest that Robb's taking of The Crag was a FalseFlagOperation, and Jeyne ''ordered'' to give herself to him; whether or not this is true, the Westerlings certainly went straight to Lord Tywin behind her back and agreed to serve as TheMole. Long story short, ''Robb needs Lord Frey'', both his men and his bridge, and so will accept any conditions Frey sets. One of them is that Robb attend Edmure's wedding.
*** The Red Wedding itself is when Edmure takes Roslin Frey to wife. Once the two of them go off for the consummation, Frey turns the tables by [[WhamMoment having his soldiers attack the Northmen]]. [[LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt Almost all of Robb's bannermen are cut down around him]]; [[HolyShitQuotient Robb himself gets run through by Roose Bolton]], and [[BeyondTheImpossible Catelyn Stark has her throat cut]] after having a (totally justified) HeroicBSOD and DespairEventHorizon. All of this was such a DownerEnding that GRRM had to leave these chapters until last.
*** End result? House Bolton becomes the Warden of the North. House Frey becomes the high lords of the Riverlands, with the Tullys attainted and one of Frey's sons getting Riverrun instead. House Stark has for all intents and purposes ceased to exist, with all its members either dead or [[DeathFakedForYou having their deaths faked for them]]. Robb's body has its head chopped off and the head of his direwolf sewed into it. Catelyn's body is dragged from the river and revived by Beric Dondarrion, and she [[CameBackWrong comes back totally wrong]]. [[CloserToEarth Only the women]] remain loyal: Roslin Frey sticks by her new husband Edmure, and Jeyne is obviously distraught over Robb's death.
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***** She did tell people she was leaving Winterfell, there was a whole scene where she consulted the maester, the future castellan, her son, so on, when she announced that she was leaving. She didn't tell Ned because he wasn't there. I'm not sure why she'd have to, either. Would you really say to your wife "How dare you leave the house without asking me first?" You know how that would make you sound? Nor does she get angry about not being consulted, she merely disagrees about certain courses of action and isn't afraid to say so. Like many other characters in the books.
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** People defend Cersei? On a more serious note, all your points are valid, and I believe intentional.
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***Going in this vein, I know that no one in Westeros has any great knowledge of human biology, but it bugs me that they always blame the woman when a girl is born when it's really the sperm that decides. (I realize that was a common belief IRL too. Doesn't make it any less annoying.)
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** I think many people believe that GRRM favors them as well, which can be a sign of Mary Sue-dom. I personally like Dany and think she does suffer a lot; she feels the consequences of her action and makes decisions accordingly, especially later on. Jon, though, I kind of understand. When compared to much of the Night's Watch, he's impressive due to his upbringing, and he also manages to do several amazing things that not a lot of people his age could do. (See: becoming Lord Commander, holding the Wall for several attacks, partially fooling Mance Rayder and destroying the first wight.)
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* Cersei. Specifically two things: one, everyone says that her redeeming quality and explanation is that she loves and wants to protect her children. I could understand that, except for the prophecy which specifically told her that ''all of her children will die before she does.'' To me, Cersei's love doesn't seem entirely genuine--she knows that if she keeps her children alive then she will stay safe. She did seem upset about Joffrey's death, but IIRC she didn't fight much against Myrcella being sent to Dorne, and she's not exactly kind to Tommen either. And two, the love between her and Jaime feels a bit forced to me. True, in-story we don't get to see them together at their best aside from a brief moment through Bran's eyes, but it seems like they're both in love with themselves more than they are with each other. Neither has ever wanted anyone but the other, and they're identical. Isn't it likely that their love is more of a self-love than true romantic love?
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