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Downplaying borderline victim blaming. Also, he does apologize. It can easily be seen as inauthentic and just an attempt to get back in Lily’s good graces, but it’s there


** Others are more nuanced; they say that Snape's just after power. He was indeed mistreated by his father, by the Marauders, by Voldemort, even by Dumbledore, but this [[FreudianExcuseIsNoExcuse doesn't excuse him from becoming an asshole]], and an asshole is what he became. He does deserve some sympathy for the bullying he went through, but he still sought power and observed that the bullies ''had'' power, and thus he became a bully himself as a means of having that power for himself. He's particularly shown to target vulnerable kids, like Harry (who's been through a lot himself), Hermione (who's more sensitive than the others), Ron (in some ways the ButtMonkey), and Neville (in ''many'' ways the ButtMonkey); meanwhile, he shows extraordinary favouritism to Malfoy, whose parents [[ScrewTheRulesIHaveConnections happen to be well-connected]]. His working for Dumbledore is seen as opportunistic, given that Dumbledore's patronage likely saved him from a stint in Azkaban for his actions as a Death Eater. Even his interactions with the Marauders as adults seem to follow this pattern; yes, they were cruel to him and nearly [[DeadlyPrank killed him with a prank]], but ''he'' was willing to [[YourSoulIsMine feed Sirius to the Dementors]] rather than turn him over to Dumbledore. It's also worth noting that in his worst memory, despite the fact that it's stated that a significant amount of students were outside watching, ''no one'' other than Lily stood up for him, which says volumes about his character as a teenager.

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** Others are more nuanced; they say that Snape's just after power. He was indeed mistreated by his father, by the Marauders, by Voldemort, even by Dumbledore, but this [[FreudianExcuseIsNoExcuse doesn't excuse him from becoming an asshole]], and an asshole is what he became. He does deserve some sympathy for the bullying he went through, but he still sought power and observed that the bullies ''had'' power, and thus he became a bully himself as a means of having that power for himself. He's particularly shown to target vulnerable kids, like Harry (who's been through a lot himself), Hermione (who's more sensitive than the others), Ron (in some ways the ButtMonkey), and Neville (in ''many'' ways the ButtMonkey); meanwhile, he shows extraordinary favouritism to Malfoy, whose parents [[ScrewTheRulesIHaveConnections happen to be well-connected]]. His working for Dumbledore is seen as opportunistic, given that Dumbledore's patronage likely saved him from a stint in Azkaban for his actions as a Death Eater. Even his interactions with the Marauders as adults seem to follow this pattern; yes, they were cruel to him and nearly [[DeadlyPrank killed him with a prank]], but ''he'' was willing to [[YourSoulIsMine feed Sirius to the Dementors]] rather than turn him over to Dumbledore.
**
It's also worth noting that in his worst memory, despite the fact that it's stated that a significant amount of students were outside watching, ''no one'' other than Lily stood up for him, which says volumes him. Does this say something about his character as a teenager. teenager? Did everyone else dislike him for justifiable or shallow reasons? Or were some of the bystanders just afraid to go against the Marauders?



** Was his love for Lily real, or was he just a StalkerWithACrush who was simply in [[LovingAShadow love with the idea of her]]? It's pointed out that he never really seemed to care about her real personality and feelings. Very little of what she told him stuck with him (unless it was badmouthing James). Even after she broke their friendship off for good, rather than listen to her and [[MustMakeAmends give up the Dark Arts]] (and improve his behaviour like James apparently did), he immersed himself in the [[BlackMagic Dark Arts]] even [[ThenLetMeBeEvil further]], despite knowing that [[MoralMyopia it targeted people of her background]] and that [[ThisIsUnforgivable she hated him for being into it]]. His pleading Voldemort to spare her has shades of ComfortingTheWidow, as he didn't seem to care what happened to James (or the infant Harry), and his removal of Lily from the family photo in ''Deathly Hallows'' is presented as romantic but often seen as [[IRejectYourReality further evidence of his inability to accept]] that Lily rejected him. It's also notable that he waits to become Dumbledore's spy until Lily is in direct danger. He never even really ''apologized'' to her for calling her a "Mudblood". These fans question whether a relationship between them was at ''all'' plausible and believe that Lily would have rejected Snape even had he promised to give up the Dark Arts. Rowling had to roll back on that, saying that they really were friends [[WeUsedToBeFriends at one time]], and that Lily risked a lot to stick with him, so there was a shot there.

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** Was his love for Lily real, or was he just a StalkerWithACrush who was simply in [[LovingAShadow love with the idea of her]]? It's pointed out that he never really seemed to care about her real personality and feelings. Very little of what she told him stuck with him (unless it was badmouthing James). Even after she broke their friendship off for good, rather than listen to her and [[MustMakeAmends give up the Dark Arts]] (and improve his behaviour like James apparently did), he immersed himself in the [[BlackMagic Dark Arts]] even [[ThenLetMeBeEvil further]], despite knowing that [[MoralMyopia it targeted people of her background]] and that [[ThisIsUnforgivable she hated him for being into it]]. His pleading Voldemort to spare her has shades of ComfortingTheWidow, as he didn't seem to care what happened to James (or the infant Harry), and his removal of Lily from the family photo in ''Deathly Hallows'' is presented as romantic but often seen as [[IRejectYourReality further evidence of his inability to accept]] that Lily rejected him. It's also notable that he waits to become Dumbledore's spy until Lily is in direct danger. He never even really ''apologized'' to her for calling her a "Mudblood". These fans question whether a relationship between them was at ''all'' plausible and believe that Lily would have rejected Snape even had he promised to give up the Dark Arts. Rowling had to roll back on that, saying that they really were friends [[WeUsedToBeFriends at one time]], and that Lily risked a lot to stick with him, so there was a shot there.
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** What was the nature of Ginny's relationship with Tom Riddle in her first year? Harry doesn't learn much about what Tom's diary did to her; he suspects it [[{{Brainwashing}} brainwashed]] her into committing some horrible acts. But some people wonder how much control Ginny really had. Was she tricked into doing it by a nice, friendly-seeming stranger? When she realized what was happening to her, why didn't she tell anyone? Was that mind control too, was she afraid of facing the consequences of her actions (whether they were intentional or not), or was she afraid of people finding out about their friendship? By her account, she had no control over her actions and couldn't recall them (even asking Tom if she was going insane), but should Harry believe her, and if that were true, could she plausibly hold up mentally as well as she did? And, since this is fan-fiction: [[UnequalPairing was she in love with him, or was it mutual, or what?]] (Extremely unlikely, as Voldemort canonically [[WhatIsThisThingYouCallLove cannot understand love]] and she's [[SingleTargetSexuality only got eyes for Harry]], but again, this is fan-fiction.)

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** What was the nature of Ginny's relationship with Tom Riddle in her first year? Harry doesn't learn much about what Tom's diary did to her; he suspects it [[{{Brainwashing}} brainwashed]] her into committing some horrible acts. But some people wonder how much control Ginny really had. Was she tricked into doing it by a nice, friendly-seeming stranger? When she realized what was happening to her, why didn't she tell anyone? Was that mind control too, was she afraid of facing the consequences of her actions (whether they were intentional or not), or was she afraid of people finding out about their friendship? By her account, she had no control over her actions and couldn't recall them (even asking Tom if she was going insane), but should Harry believe her, and if that were true, could she plausibly hold up mentally as well as she did? And, since this is fan-fiction: [[UnequalPairing was she in love with him, or was it mutual, or what?]] (Extremely unlikely, as Voldemort canonically [[WhatIsThisThingYouCallLove cannot understand love]] and she's [[SingleTargetSexuality only got eyes for Harry]], but again, this is fan-fiction.)did?

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* Hermione Granger: We know she's a BadassBookworm, but how smart is she really? Harry considers her the smartest witch at Hogwarts and makes no bones about it (which embarrasses her to no end), but does she really live up to the hype? Part of it might just be that she's very book-smart but isn't as creative or confident as the other {{Teen Genius}}es we see in the books - in essence, she's BoringButPractical.

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* Hermione Granger: Granger:
**
We know she's a BadassBookworm, but how smart is she really? Harry considers her the smartest witch at Hogwarts and makes no bones about it (which embarrasses her to no end), but does she really live up to the hype? Part of it might just be that she's very book-smart but isn't as creative or confident as the other {{Teen Genius}}es we see in the books - in essence, she's BoringButPractical.BoringButPractical.
** How come she lied that she went out looking for the troll after Harry and Ron saved her from it, when actually she was [[BathroomStallOfAngst in the bathroom crying]] over Ron having teased her for being an InsufferableGenius? Was she just too embarrassed to admit that she'd been crying, or was it to forgive Ron (by pretending it wasn't his fault)? Or was it both?
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** Would he have granted Snape's request that he not kill Lily? Some fans [[https://www.facebook.com/groups/1395519290756676/permalink/1865612973747303/ think he would have]]. We know that he was ''trying'' to spare her, telling Lily to get out of the way so that he could murder the baby Harry, but she [[HeroicSacrifice refused]], he said "fuck it" and killed her, and the rest is seven books of magical adventures. But these fans think that Lily's HeroicSacrifice wasn't the only explanation for Harry's survival and believe that Voldemort's body was destroyed because he unintentionally broke a magic oath with Snape.

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** Would he have granted Snape's request that he not kill Lily? Some fans [[https://www.facebook.com/groups/1395519290756676/permalink/1865612973747303/ think he would have]]. We know that he was ''trying'' to spare her, telling Lily to get out of the way so that he could murder the baby Harry, but she [[HeroicSacrifice refused]], he said "fuck it" and killed her, and the rest is seven books of magical adventures. But these fans think that Lily's HeroicSacrifice wasn't the only explanation for Harry's survival and believe that Voldemort's body was destroyed because he unintentionally broke a magic oath with Snape. Some also suggest Voldemort initially ordered her to step aside as a way to reward Snape for telling him of the prophecy's subjects, as Voldemort later explicitly notes he remembers ''why'' Snape wanted Lily to be spared.
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*** Its founder, Salazar Slytherin, is not painted well in the books - he was known to have built the Chamber of Secrets, which housed the Muggle-killing Basilisk, and he did have a falling out with the other founders over whether or not to accept Muggle-born students. This suggests that he really was a Pureblood supremacist, but one interpretation suggests that since the BurnTheWitch trope was alive and well at the time[[note]]Which is itself problematic under [[AllThereInTheManual the accepted timeline]], because Hogwarts was apparently founded in the late 10th Century and the large-scale witch-hunts didn't get underway until the mid-15th Century, but [[AnachronismStew whatever]][[/note]], he didn't have anything against Muggles ''per se'', but was a pragmatist who didn't want to open the school up to attack by Muggles. Under this interpretation, the Chamber of Secrets was a defence against a possible attack. Others suggest that the Basilisk wasn't intended to kill people, but Tom Riddle found a way to change that. [[https://magelet-301.tumblr.com/post/120036670647/here-it-is-canon-evidence-that-salazar-slytherin This article on Tumblr adds to this case]]

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*** Its founder, Salazar Slytherin, is not painted well in the books - he was known to have built the Chamber of Secrets, which housed the Muggle-killing Basilisk, and he did have a falling out with the other founders over whether or not to accept Muggle-born students. This suggests that he really was a Pureblood supremacist, but one interpretation suggests that since the BurnTheWitch trope was alive and well at the time[[note]]Which is itself problematic under [[AllThereInTheManual the accepted timeline]], because Hogwarts was apparently founded in the late 10th Century and the large-scale witch-hunts didn't get underway until the mid-15th Century, but [[AnachronismStew whatever]][[/note]], he didn't have anything against Muggles ''per se'', but was a pragmatist who didn't want to open the school up to attack by Muggles. Under this interpretation, the Chamber of Secrets was a defence against a possible attack. Others suggest that the Basilisk wasn't intended to kill people, but Tom Riddle found a way to change that. [[https://magelet-301.[[https://www.tumblr.com/post/120036670647/here-it-is-canon-evidence-that-salazar-slytherin com/caffeineheroes/121853126424/here-it-is-canon-evidence-that-salazar-slytherin This article on Tumblr adds to this case]]
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* Though many people consider Rufus Scrimgeour to be a rather ineffective leader who was only barely better than Fudge, others believe he was a good man who inherited a complete mess with very little ability to actually combat it. Though he did try to maintain the idea that the Ministry was winning the war against Voldemort, one has to consider it was necessary to maintain a strong united front, and telling people that Voldemort was already gaining the advantage would've caused many people to switch over to his side in fear, like Peter Pettigrew did. And while both Harry and Dumbledore chastised Scrimgeour for arresting Stan Shunpike, Shunpike was also being a complete idiot bragging about how he was affiliated with the Death Eaters. Making those kinds of jokes at such a dangerous time was very idiotic, and keeping him locked up served as an aexmaple to the public that it wasn't ok to create panic and waste resources to search for false leads. Considering how he refused to give up Harry's location even under torture, one has to consider whether Voldemort would've been able to rise to power had Scrimgeour been in office instead of Fudge when Voldemort had returned.

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* Though many people consider Rufus Scrimgeour to be a rather ineffective leader who was only barely better than Fudge, others believe he was a good man who inherited a complete mess with very little ability to actually combat it. Though he did try to maintain the idea that the Ministry was winning the war against Voldemort, one has to consider it was necessary to maintain a strong united front, and telling people that Voldemort was already gaining the advantage would've caused many people to switch over to his side in fear, like Peter Pettigrew did. And while both Harry and Dumbledore chastised Scrimgeour for arresting Stan Shunpike, Shunpike was also being a complete idiot bragging about how he was affiliated with the Death Eaters. Making those kinds of jokes at such a dangerous time was very idiotic, and keeping him locked up served as an aexmaple example to the public that it wasn't ok to create panic and waste resources to search for false leads. Considering how he refused to give up Harry's location even under torture, one has to consider whether Voldemort would've been able to rise to power had Scrimgeour been in office instead of Fudge when Voldemort had returned.
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--->''I think [Grindlewald] was a user and a narcissist, and I think someone like that would use it, would use the infatuation. I don't think that he would reciprocate in that way, although he would be as dazzled by Dumbledore as Dumbledore was by him, because he would see in Dumbledore, "My God, I never knew there was someone as brilliant as me, as talented as me, as powerful as me. [[WeCanRuleTogether Together, we are unstoppable!]]" Maybe he would take anything from Dumbledore to have him on his side.''

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--->''I ---->''I think [Grindlewald] was a user and a narcissist, and I think someone like that would use it, would use the infatuation. I don't think that he would reciprocate in that way, although he would be as dazzled by Dumbledore as Dumbledore was by him, because he would see in Dumbledore, "My God, I never knew there was someone as brilliant as me, as talented as me, as powerful as me. [[WeCanRuleTogether Together, we are unstoppable!]]" Maybe he would take anything from Dumbledore to have him on his side.''
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* Though many people consider Rufus Scrimgeour to be a rather ineffective leader who was only barely better than Fudge, others believe he was a good man who inherited a complete mess with very little ability to actually combat it. Though he did try to maintain the idea that the Ministry was winning the war against Voldemort, one has to consider it was necessary to maintain a strong united front, and telling people that Voldemort was already gaining the advantage would've caused many people to switch over to his side in fear, like Peter Pettigrew did. And while both Harry and Dumbledore chastised Scrimgeour for arresting Stan Shunpike, Shunpike was also being a complete idiot bragging about how he was affiliated with the Death Eaters. Making those kinds of jokes at such a dangerous time was very idiotic, and keeping him locked up served as an aexmaple to the public that it wasn't ok to create panic and waste resources to search for false leads. Considering how he refused to give up Harry's location even under torture, one has to consider whether Voldemort would've been able to rise to power had Scrimgeour been in office instead of Fudge when Voldemort had returned.
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** With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, they [[BlueAndOrangeMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude ''actually'' genuine? Are the house-elves just saying they're fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can't fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long that [[NotUsedToFreedom they wouldn't know what they would do if they were freed]]? Or are they even possibly under a magical compulsion? Even Dobby's idea of freedom isn't "not working", but "not working for the Malfoys", as he happily works for Dumbledore while insisting on being paid less than he was offered. However, this raises its own questions -- is he genuinely conditioned not to want too much money, or does he just not want the other house-elves to turn on him since they already consider him a weirdo for being happy as a free house-elf? Hermione's own theory is that they're [[StockholmSyndrome psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], which is something [[TruthInTelevision that can happen to slaves in real life]], and there are a lot of hints that makes one wonder if it's true -- including the house-elves' habit of [[SelfHarm physically punishing themselves]] for failing their masters.

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** With a few exceptions, such as Dobby, they [[BlueAndOrangeMorality find the prospect of not serving human wizards abhorrent]]. However, is this HappinessInSlavery attitude ''actually'' genuine? Are the house-elves just saying they're fine with being enslaved because they feel as if they can't fight the FantasticCasteSystem the Wizarding World has enforced on them? Or have they been enslaved by wizards for so long that [[NotUsedToFreedom they wouldn't know what they would do if they were freed]]? Or are they even possibly under a magical compulsion? Even Dobby's idea of freedom isn't "not working", but "not working for the Malfoys", as he happily works for Dumbledore while insisting on being paid less than he was offered. However, this raises its own questions -- is he genuinely conditioned not to want too much money, or does he just not want the other house-elves to turn on him since they already consider him a weirdo for being happy as a free house-elf? Hermione's own theory is that they're [[StockholmSyndrome [[UsefulNotes/StockholmSyndrome psychologically conditioned to like being enslaved]], which is something [[TruthInTelevision that can happen to slaves in real life]], and there are a lot of hints that makes one wonder if it's true -- including the house-elves' habit of [[SelfHarm physically punishing themselves]] for failing their masters.

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* Marietta Edgecombe is a minor character who made a big impact by turning over Dumbledore's Army to Umbridge. She was found out because Hermione secretly cast a spell that would give away any snitches - by effectively disfiguring their face. Fans are on two sides as to how sympathetic Marietta is. On the one hand, she was scared of Umbridge (and her mother worked for her, which added to the pressure), and Hermione's secret spell seemed rather cruel and {{disproportionate|retribution}}. On the other hand, she effectively ended the only self-defence course available to any of the students, which Harry argues put practically everyone in danger (especially given that the students risked expulsion, which includes a prohibition from owning a wand or using magic).

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* Marietta Edgecombe is a minor character who made a big impact by turning over Dumbledore's Army to Umbridge. She was found out because Hermione secretly cast a spell that would give away any snitches - by effectively disfiguring their face. Fans are on two sides as to how sympathetic Marietta is. On the one hand, she was scared of Umbridge (and her mother worked for her, which added to the pressure), and Hermione's secret spell seemed rather cruel and {{disproportionate|retribution}}. On the other hand, she effectively ended the only self-defence course available to any of the students, which Harry argues put practically everyone in danger (especially given that the students risked expulsion, which includes a prohibition from owning a wand or using magic). It's worth noting that we never get an insight into her feelings beyond it being stated that she didn't seem willing to be going to the first DA meeting, and the 'scared of Umbridge' interpretation is strictly headcanon. Perhaps she merely thought the DA would be exposed eventually, especially as Umbridge's power kept growing, and wanted to make sure she could dodge consequences when they were. After all, if she were scared, she could have asked to leave/have her name taken off the list and feign ignorance of it all.


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** And for that matter, was his love for her truly romantic in nature? He had an abusive father and plenty of trauma from his displaced identity as a half-blood wizard - and Lily is implied to be the first other wizard child he's ever met or at least properly known. Maybe she was more of a sister to him, and his annoyance at James's crush on her was less because he wanted her for himself and more that he was afraid she might stop hanging out with him if she did. He could easily want her spared by Voldemort for platonic reasons rather than romantic. Voldemort seemed to think he lusted after her, but Snape could easily have let him believe that.

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** A more minor point concerns Dumbledore's treatment of Gryffindor (at least while Harry was there) and whether it counted as favouritism. Over the years, the House Cup becomes much less important to the story, but in ''Philosopher's Stone'', his last-minute point-spree to Gryffindor for Harry and company's actions in the climax (including a critical ten points to Neville for trying to ''stop'' them from going after the Stone because it was too dangerous, because standing up to your enemies isn't as hard as standing up to your friends) is seen as totally arbitrary and a way to screw Slytherin at the last second. Maybe he was just bored with Slytherin's winning streak.

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*** For that matter; did Dumbledore brush him off, or is he deliberately keeping his spy on a need-to-know basis?
** A more minor point concerns Dumbledore's treatment of Gryffindor (at least while Harry was there) and whether it counted as favouritism. Over the years, the House Cup becomes much less important to the story, but in ''Philosopher's Stone'', his last-minute point-spree to Gryffindor for Harry and company's actions in the climax (including a critical ten points to Neville for trying to ''stop'' them from going after the Stone because it was too dangerous, because standing up to your enemies isn't as hard as standing up to your friends) is seen as totally arbitrary and a way to screw Slytherin at the last second. Maybe he was just bored with Slytherin's winning streak. Alternatively, given the reveal in Book 7 about his younger life, it may well be that he's very well aware of how much harder it is to stand up to your friends, and is encouraging Neville not to make the same mistakes he did.



** Was his love for Lily real, or was he just a StalkerWithACrush who was simply in [[LovingAShadow love with the idea of her]]? It's pointed out that he never really seemed to care about her real personality and feelings. Very little of what she told him stuck with him (unless it was badmouthing James). Even after she broke their friendship off for good, rather than listen to her and [[MustMakeAmends give up the Dark Arts]] (and improve his behaviour like James apparently did), he immersed himself in the [[BlackMagic Dark Arts]] even [[ThenLetMeBeEvil further]], despite knowing that [[MoralMyopia it targeted people of her background]] and that [[ThisIsUnforgivable she hated him for being into it]]. His pleading Voldemort to spare her has shades of ComfortingTheWidow, as he didn't seem to care what happened to James (or the infant Harry), and his removal of Lily from the family photo in ''Deathly Hallows'' is presented as romantic but often seen as [[IRejectYourReality further evidence of his inability to accept]] that Lily rejected him. He never even really ''apologized'' to her for calling her a "Mudblood". These fans question whether a relationship between them was at ''all'' plausible and believe that Lily would have rejected Snape even had he promised to give up the Dark Arts. Rowling had to roll back on that, saying that they really were friends [[WeUsedToBeFriends at one time]], and that Lily risked a lot to stick with him, so there was a shot there.

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** Was his love for Lily real, or was he just a StalkerWithACrush who was simply in [[LovingAShadow love with the idea of her]]? It's pointed out that he never really seemed to care about her real personality and feelings. Very little of what she told him stuck with him (unless it was badmouthing James). Even after she broke their friendship off for good, rather than listen to her and [[MustMakeAmends give up the Dark Arts]] (and improve his behaviour like James apparently did), he immersed himself in the [[BlackMagic Dark Arts]] even [[ThenLetMeBeEvil further]], despite knowing that [[MoralMyopia it targeted people of her background]] and that [[ThisIsUnforgivable she hated him for being into it]]. His pleading Voldemort to spare her has shades of ComfortingTheWidow, as he didn't seem to care what happened to James (or the infant Harry), and his removal of Lily from the family photo in ''Deathly Hallows'' is presented as romantic but often seen as [[IRejectYourReality further evidence of his inability to accept]] that Lily rejected him. It's also notable that he waits to become Dumbledore's spy until Lily is in direct danger. He never even really ''apologized'' to her for calling her a "Mudblood". These fans question whether a relationship between them was at ''all'' plausible and believe that Lily would have rejected Snape even had he promised to give up the Dark Arts. Rowling had to roll back on that, saying that they really were friends [[WeUsedToBeFriends at one time]], and that Lily risked a lot to stick with him, so there was a shot there.



** How did he end up with Lily to begin with? Did he target Snape and try to destroy their friendship so that he could have her for himself? Or, as the canon characters claim, did Lily want nothing to do with him until he shaped up? Did it matter that his friends Sirius and Lupin might still have been behaving like assholes even after James had grown out of it, or was James able to convince Lily that they were cool even if they hadn't "grown up" yet?
** What to make of his relationships with the other Marauders? If the others were still behaving like assholes even after he had stopped (so that he could have a chance with Lily), why did he continue to hang out with them? Did his condescending UnderestimatingBadassery of Peter Pettigrew lead to Peter's FaceHeelTurn -- and thus his own death? When he talked the others out of following through with a prank on Snape that [[DeadlyPrank could have gotten him killed]], was he actually feeling guilty and admonishing his friends for going too far, or was he just trying to save his ass? (Interestingly, the latter question ''is'' asked in the narrative with no clear answer. Guess what Snape thinks.)

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** How did he end up with Lily to begin with? Did he target Snape and try to destroy their friendship so that he could have her for himself? Or, as the canon characters claim, did Lily want nothing to do with him until he shaped up? Did it matter that his friends Sirius and Lupin might still have been behaving like assholes even after James had grown out of it, or was James able to convince Lily that they were cool even if they hadn't "grown up" yet?
yet? For that matter, when and how much did Sirius and Lupin grow up?
** What to make of his relationships with the other Marauders? If the others were still behaving like assholes even after he had stopped (so that he could have a chance with Lily), why Lily)--and that's a big if, since we don't know one way or the other--why did he continue to hang out with them? Did his condescending UnderestimatingBadassery of Peter Pettigrew lead to Peter's FaceHeelTurn -- and thus his own death? When he talked the others out of following through with a prank on Snape that [[DeadlyPrank could have gotten him killed]], was he actually feeling guilty and admonishing his friends for going too far, or was he just trying to save his ass? (Interestingly, the latter question ''is'' asked in the narrative with no clear answer. Guess what Snape thinks.)



* Who are even the good guys? Many Death Eaters don't exactly share in Voldemort's fervour to TakeOverTheWorld. Some of them were high-ranking figures already, which suggests that they were attracted to the movement's ideology (which happens to be to exterminate everything that's not a pure-blooded wizard). Others suggest, though, that they're not so different from the good guys, who themselves want to keep magic a secret from the world at large (to the point where [[spoiler:none of them bothered to break TheMasquerade during the ten months Voldemort took over their government, even though they could have saved a ''lot'' of Muggle lives by doing so]]), have a very harsh and [[AllCrimesAreEqual sometimes disproportionate]] justice system, are fine with slavery, and [[FantasticRacism have their own discriminatory viewpoints]]. For example, Dumbledore is implied to be astonishingly progressive to give Lupin and Hagrid jobs at Hogwarts, and he still has to keep Lupin's [[OurWerewolvesAreDifferent lycanthropy]] a secret. Furthermore, most wizards' complete ignorance of modern technology, clothing, science, and medicine due to their rejection of anything Muggle, as well as how they treat Muggles as ignorant and naive playthings is treated as comical eccentricity at it's worst. One common fan interpretation is that Wizarding Britain is incredibly backward, insular, and prejudiced compared to other magical communities.

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* Who are even the good guys? Many Death Eaters don't exactly share in Voldemort's fervour to TakeOverTheWorld. Some of them were high-ranking figures already, which suggests that they were attracted to the movement's ideology (which happens to be to exterminate or oppress everything that's not a pure-blooded wizard). Others suggest, though, that they're not so different from the good guys, who themselves want to keep magic a secret from the world at large (to the point where [[spoiler:none of them bothered to break TheMasquerade during the ten months Voldemort took over their government, even though they could have saved a ''lot'' of Muggle lives by doing so]]), have a very harsh and [[AllCrimesAreEqual sometimes disproportionate]] justice system, are fine with slavery, and [[FantasticRacism have their own discriminatory viewpoints]]. For example, Dumbledore is implied to be astonishingly progressive to give Lupin and Hagrid jobs at Hogwarts, and he still has to keep Lupin's [[OurWerewolvesAreDifferent lycanthropy]] a secret. Furthermore, most wizards' complete ignorance of modern technology, clothing, science, and medicine due to their rejection of anything Muggle, as well as how they treat Muggles as ignorant and naive playthings is treated as comical eccentricity at it's worst. One common fan interpretation is that Wizarding Britain is incredibly backward, insular, and prejudiced compared to other magical communities.
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''Literature/HarryPotter'' is a series of seven {{Doorstopper}}s with tons of characters- but even they don't always tell the whole story. Compounding this fact is that the saga is told nearly completely in [[PointOfView limited third-person]] perspective, making it so we only see and think what Harry sees and thinks. Therefore, it's very easy to re-examine characters' behaviour and motivations while thinking Harry - whether out of ignorance or his own biases - is an UnreliableNarrator.

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''Literature/HarryPotter'' is a series of seven {{Doorstopper}}s with tons of characters- but even they don't always tell the whole story. Compounding this fact is that the saga is told nearly completely in [[PointOfView limited third-person]] perspective, making it so we only see and think what Harry sees and thinks. Therefore, it's very easy to [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation re-examine characters' behaviour and motivations motivations]] while thinking Harry - whether out of ignorance or his own biases - is an UnreliableNarrator.
UnreliableNarrator.



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Loads And Loads Of Characters is a redirect that should not be linked to


''Literature/HarryPotter'' is a series of seven {{Doorstopper}}s with LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters - but even they don't always tell the whole story. Compounding this fact is that the saga is told nearly completely in [[PointOfView limited third-person]] perspective, making it so we only see and think what Harry sees and thinks. Therefore, it's very easy to re-examine characters' behaviour and motivations while thinking Harry - whether out of ignorance or his own biases - is an UnreliableNarrator.

to:

''Literature/HarryPotter'' is a series of seven {{Doorstopper}}s with LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters - tons of characters- but even they don't always tell the whole story. Compounding this fact is that the saga is told nearly completely in [[PointOfView limited third-person]] perspective, making it so we only see and think what Harry sees and thinks. Therefore, it's very easy to re-examine characters' behaviour and motivations while thinking Harry - whether out of ignorance or his own biases - is an UnreliableNarrator.
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** One theory suggests that he was a mole within the Ministry working for the Order, likening him to the hero of ''Literature/TheScarletPimpernel'' (even sharing his [[MeaningfulName first name]]). The idea was that he would be ''so'' ingrained in the Ministry and loyal to Fudge that no one would question him or believe that he was leaking anything to the Order. If this is true, he did a ''very'' good job keeping it a secret from Harry, though.

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** One theory suggests that he was a mole within the Ministry working for the Order, likening him to the hero of ''Literature/TheScarletPimpernel'' (even sharing his [[MeaningfulName first name]]). The idea was that he would be ''so'' ingrained in the Ministry and loyal to Fudge that no one would question him or believe that he was leaking anything to the Order. If this is true, he did a ''very'' good job keeping it a secret from Harry, though.though (that being said, there's no particular reason Harry should have known about Percy's spy role).



** Some fans discovered a minor point of contention: in ''Chamber of Secrets'', Arthur's son learns of the location of a stash of forbidden items in a respected citizen's house. Come ''Prisoner of Azkaban'', there's no sign of a search or arrest, but Arthur suddenly finds himself seven hundred Galleons richer and ''claims'' he won the lottery. Did he really, or is it just a case of [[EveryManHasHisPrice every man having his price]]?

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** Some fans discovered a minor point of contention: in ''Chamber of Secrets'', Arthur's son learns of the location of a stash of forbidden items in a respected citizen's house. Come ''Prisoner of Azkaban'', there's no sign of a search or arrest, but Arthur suddenly finds himself seven hundred Galleons richer and ''claims'' he won the lottery. Did he really, or is it just a case of [[EveryManHasHisPrice every man having his price]]?price]]? Or was Arthur just unable to order a search on a very well-connected and wealthy figure without significant proof?

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Anyone who thinks that clearly hasn't read the books. Also, this isn't the fanon page. Moving that to there.


* Ron Weasley: Is he really a good friend or an attention hungry gold digger? He immediately approaches and befriends Harry after learning he's the boy who lived, sees himself as a Quidditch hero head boy in the mirror of Erised, and takes off for really stupid reasons at crucial moments from book four onwards.



** In general, Harry practically idolizes him and sees him as [[EccentricMentor an important mentor]]. But other characters don't like him as much because of his {{Chessmaster}} qualities. Some readers spun this further into him being a KnightTemplar and MagnificentBastard. In fan-fiction - especially the DarkerAndEdgier variety - he can be entirely unrepentant of what he does to ensure the safety of wizardry, even being nice to Harry only because [[spoiler:he needs him to sacrifice himself]]. In canon, at least, he was willing to admit mistakes when Harry confronted him, and it's strongly implied that he's got more regrets that he never told Harry. Some even portray him as really being a delusional madman who endangers the lives of children on a daily basis.

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** In general, Harry practically idolizes him and sees him as [[EccentricMentor an important mentor]]. But other characters don't like him as much because of his {{Chessmaster}} qualities. Some readers spun this further into him being a KnightTemplar and MagnificentBastard. In fan-fiction - especially the DarkerAndEdgier variety - he can be entirely unrepentant of what he does to ensure the safety of wizardry, even being nice to Harry only because [[spoiler:he needs him to sacrifice himself]]. In canon, at least, he was willing to admit mistakes when Harry confronted him, and it's strongly implied that he's got more regrets that he never told Harry. Some even portray him as really being a delusional madman who endangers the lives of children on a daily basis.



** Speaking of Petunia, was she genuinely less loved than Lily? Or did their parents love them both equally, but a jealous and spiteful Petunia told herself and everyone else that she was least-liked?



* A {{Fanon}} theory suggests that Moaning Myrtle, while she was alive, [[SingleGirlSeeksMostPopularGuy had a huge crush on Tom Riddle]]. Riddle used this to his advantage and got her to serve him. He probably told her lies like "I may hate other Muggle-borns, but you're different" to make her feel special (or he might have not told her about how he felt about Muggle-borns at all). This would mean that her eventual death at the hands of the Basilisk was not a random killing, but rather an act of betrayal. A further theory suggests that Olive Hornby (who found her body) was jealous of Myrtle's relationship with Riddle.



*** Another fact about Slytherin that paints them in a different light, is one of it's alumni, Wizard of Arthurian Legend, Merlin, if legend in the Wizarding World is truth, Merlin was a definitive BigGood, and willing served under a muggle king, and tried to do the best to make the world a peaceful place.

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*** Another fact about Slytherin that paints them in a different light, is one of it's its alumni, is the Wizard of Arthurian Legend, Merlin, if legend Merlin. If the legends in the Wizarding World is are truth, Merlin was a definitive BigGood, and willing willingly served under a muggle king, and tried to do the his best to make the world a peaceful place.
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** Did Godric Gryffindor, Salazar Slytherin, and Rowena Ravenclaw really snap up the bravest, smartest, shrewdest, most talented students while Helga Hufflepuff got the unremarkable leftovers (as is generally agreed in-universe and out), or was she the OnlySaneWoman who took her job as a ''teacher'' seriously; willing to take in and educate ''any'' magical student regardless of whether or not they took after her, or could bring glory to her legacy?

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** Did Godric Gryffindor, Salazar Slytherin, and Rowena Ravenclaw really snap up the bravest, smartest, shrewdest, most talented students while Helga Hufflepuff got the unremarkable leftovers (as is generally agreed in-universe and out), or was she the OnlySaneWoman who took her job as a ''teacher'' seriously; willing to take in and educate ''any'' magical student regardless of whether or not they took after her, or could bring glory to her legacy?legacy?
** On the flip side, was Helga correct to collect the unremarkable students together or is she at fault for fostering mediocrity instead of driving students to excel at things?
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Not So Different has been renamed, and it needs to be dewicked


** Was Salazar Slytherin the only one who caused division, or were most of the Founders guilty of division to some extent by creating the Sorting System to begin with? At the very least, Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw also wouldn't teach students who didn't take after themselves, while Helga Hufflepuff was noteworthy for being not only the ''only one'' willing to teach any student, but treated them all equally regardless of whether or not they displayed her favored traits. While Salazar undeniably took it too far by not wanting to admit any non-pureblood students into the school, did Gryffindor and Ravenclaw pay lip service to unity and tolerance yet [[NotSoDifferent similarly]] displayed a [[NotInMyBackyard "Not In My House"]] attitude toward admitting students who didn't share their own traits and values into their ''own'' houses?

to:

** Was Salazar Slytherin the only one who caused division, or were most of the Founders guilty of division to some extent by creating the Sorting System to begin with? At the very least, Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw also wouldn't teach students who didn't take after themselves, while Helga Hufflepuff was noteworthy for being not only the ''only one'' willing to teach any student, but treated them all equally regardless of whether or not they displayed her favored traits. While Salazar undeniably took it too far by not wanting to admit any non-pureblood students into the school, did Gryffindor and Ravenclaw pay lip service to unity and tolerance yet [[NotSoDifferent similarly]] similarly displayed a [[NotInMyBackyard "Not In My House"]] attitude toward admitting students who didn't share their own traits and values into their ''own'' houses?
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** Was Salazar Slytherin the only one who caused division, or were most of the Founders guilty of division to some extent by creating the Sorting System to begin with? At the very least, Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw also wouldn't teach students who didn't take after themselves, while Helga Hufflepuff was noteworthy for being not only the ''only one'' willing to teach any student, but treated them all equally regardless of whether or not they displayed her favored traits. While Salazar Slytherin undeniably took it too far by not wanting to admit any non-pureblood students into the school, did Gryffindor and Ravenclaw also pay lip service to unity and tolerance yet [[NotSoDifferent similarly]] had a [[NotInMyBackyard "Not In My House"]] attitude toward admitting students not like themself into their ''own'' houses.

to:

** Was Salazar Slytherin the only one who caused division, or were most of the Founders guilty of division to some extent by creating the Sorting System to begin with? At the very least, Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw also wouldn't teach students who didn't take after themselves, while Helga Hufflepuff was noteworthy for being not only the ''only one'' willing to teach any student, but treated them all equally regardless of whether or not they displayed her favored traits. While Salazar Slytherin undeniably took it too far by not wanting to admit any non-pureblood students into the school, did Gryffindor and Ravenclaw also pay lip service to unity and tolerance yet [[NotSoDifferent similarly]] had displayed a [[NotInMyBackyard "Not In My House"]] attitude toward admitting students not like themself who didn't share their own traits and values into their ''own'' houses.houses?



** Did Godric Gryffindor, Salazar Slytherin, and Rowena Ravenclaw really snap up the best and brightest students while Helga Hufflepuff got the unremarkable leftovers (as is generally agreed in-universe and out), or was she the OnlySaneWoman who took her job as a ''teacher'' seriously; willing to take in and educate ''any'' magical student regardless of whether or not they took after her, or could bring glory to her legacy?

to:

** Did Godric Gryffindor, Salazar Slytherin, and Rowena Ravenclaw really snap up the best and brightest bravest, smartest, shrewdest, most talented students while Helga Hufflepuff got the unremarkable leftovers (as is generally agreed in-universe and out), or was she the OnlySaneWoman who took her job as a ''teacher'' seriously; willing to take in and educate ''any'' magical student regardless of whether or not they took after her, or could bring glory to her legacy?

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* As the Hogwarts [[AbsurdlyDividedSchool House system]] comes under increased scrutiny over time (see Harry Potter's BrokenBase and StrawmanHasAPoint pages), the same goes for the Founders. Was Salazar Slytherin the only one who caused division by wanting to admit only those from pureblood families, or were most/all of the Founders guilty of this to some extent by creating the Sorting System? At the very least, Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw wouldn't teach students who didn't take after themselves, while Helga Hufflepuff was noteworthy for not only being the ''only one'' willing to teach any student, but treating them all equally regardless of whether or not they displayed her favored traits.
** Did Godric Gryffindor, Salazar Slytherin, and Rowena Ravenclaw really snap up the best and brightest students while Helga Hufflepuff took the unremarkable leftovers (as is generally agreed in-universe and out), or was she the OnlySaneWoman who took her job as a ''teacher'' seriously; willing to take in and educate ''any'' magical student regardless of whether or not they took after her, or could bring glory to her legacy?

to:

* As the Hogwarts [[AbsurdlyDividedSchool House system]] comes under increased scrutiny over time (see Harry Potter's BrokenBase and StrawmanHasAPoint pages), the same goes for the Founders. Was Salazar Slytherin the only one who caused division by wanting to admit only those from pureblood families, or were most/all of the Founders guilty of this to some extent by creating the Sorting System? At the very least, Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw wouldn't teach students who didn't take after themselves, while Helga Hufflepuff was noteworthy for not only being the ''only one'' willing to teach any student, but treating them all equally regardless of whether or not they displayed her favored traits.
** Was Salazar Slytherin the only one who caused division, or were most of the Founders guilty of division to some extent by creating the Sorting System to begin with? At the very least, Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw also wouldn't teach students who didn't take after themselves, while Helga Hufflepuff was noteworthy for being not only the ''only one'' willing to teach any student, but treated them all equally regardless of whether or not they displayed her favored traits. While Salazar Slytherin undeniably took it too far by not wanting to admit any non-pureblood students into the school, did Gryffindor and Ravenclaw also pay lip service to unity and tolerance yet [[NotSoDifferent similarly]] had a [[NotInMyBackyard "Not In My House"]] attitude toward admitting students not like themself into their ''own'' houses.
** Were Godric Gryffindor, Salazar Slytherin, and Rowena Ravenclaw really shrewd and discerning teachers who selected the best and brightest and pushed their students toward excellence? Or closet egotists who only wanted students who took after themselves, only fostered the traits they were best known for, and ensured generations of students would emulate their own favored traits and values?
** Did Godric Gryffindor, Salazar Slytherin, and Rowena Ravenclaw really snap up the best and brightest students while Helga Hufflepuff took got the unremarkable leftovers (as is generally agreed in-universe and out), or was she the OnlySaneWoman who took her job as a ''teacher'' seriously; willing to take in and educate ''any'' magical student regardless of whether or not they took after her, or could bring glory to her legacy?

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* In Harry's Fifth Year, the Sorting Hat [[https://www.hp-lexicon.org/thing/sorting-hat-songs/ sings a song]] warning about the dangers of division, and calls for House unity and reconciliation. It starts off describing how the first three founders selected students with traits most like their own, and in each verse last describes how Helga Hufflepuff took in all without favoritism or discrimination. The Hat then describes how Salazar Slytherin only wanted children from pureblood families to be admitted, which created AHouseDivided. The Hat then concludes the song by admitting it's "condemned" to continue Sorting students, and worries if this causes more harm than good. While most fans and in-universe characters take the song to mean the dangers of pureblood supremacy from Slytherins, there is an argument to be made for the Hat actually imploring listeners to take a page out of ''Helga Hufflepuff'''s book ? The Hat first describes how the other founders only wanted students that emulated themselves, before describing how Helga would "take the lot and treat them just the same" and "Good Hufflepuff, she took the rest and taught them all she knew," before wondering if the Sorting itself leads to division? Is the Sorting Hat really warning against the dangers of pureblood supremacy alone, or is wondering/lamenting if arbitrarily dividing young students and teaching them to value only certain traits and values will lead to tribalism and division?

to:

* In Harry's Fifth Year, the Sorting Hat [[https://www.hp-lexicon.org/thing/sorting-hat-songs/ sings a song]] warning about the dangers of division, and calls for House unity and reconciliation. It starts off describing how the first three founders selected students with traits most like their own, and in each verse last describes how Helga Hufflepuff took in all without favoritism or discrimination. The Hat then describes how Salazar Slytherin only wanted children from pureblood families to be admitted, which created AHouseDivided. The Hat then concludes by saying Hogwarts is being threatened by external forces and they need to unite to protect the song by admitting it's "condemned" school, yet is loath to continue Sorting students, and worries if this causes more harm than good. While Is the Sorting Hat just warning against the rise of Slytherin pureblood supremacy, as most fans and in-universe characters take and fans believe, or is it calling the song to mean the dangers of pureblood supremacy from Slytherins, there is an argument to be made for the Hat actually imploring listeners to take a page out of ''Helga Hufflepuff'''s book ? The Hat first describes how the other founders only wanted students that emulated themselves, before describing how Helga would "take the lot and treat them just the same" and "Good Hufflepuff, she took the rest and taught them all she knew," before wondering if the entire Sorting itself leads to division? Is the Sorting Hat really warning against the dangers of pureblood supremacy alone, or is wondering/lamenting if arbitrarily dividing young students and teaching them to value only certain traits and values will lead to tribalism and division?system into question?



* On that note, as the Hogwarts [[AbsurdlyDividedSchool House system]] comes under increased scrutiny over time by readers (see Harry Potter's BrokenBase and StrawmanHasAPoint pages), the same goes for the Founders. There's a case to be made for not just Salazar Slytherin, but Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw being closet egotists since they only wanted to take in students like themselves, only wanted to nurture the traits and talents they were best known for, and ensured their own legacy by guaranteeing that generations upon generations of students would grow up to emulate and live by their House Founder's own traits and values. While Helga Hufflepuff valued loyalty, honesty, fair play, and hard work, she accepted all students regardless of whether or not they possessed these traits... [[NoGoodDeedGoesUnpunished and thus got derisively remembered as the Founder who took in the other three's table scraps]]. This also sparks a debate over whether Helga Hufflepuff really took in the leftover students not bright or talented enough for the other Houses... Or if she was the OnlySaneWoman who took her job ''as a teacher'' seriously; willing to take in and teach ''any'' magical student in need of learning, not just those who could stroke her own ego or bring her own house glory?

to:

* On that note, as As the Hogwarts [[AbsurdlyDividedSchool House system]] comes under increased scrutiny over time by readers (see Harry Potter's BrokenBase and StrawmanHasAPoint pages), the same goes for the Founders. There's a case to be made for not just Was Salazar Slytherin, but Slytherin the only one who caused division by wanting to admit only those from pureblood families, or were most/all of the Founders guilty of this to some extent by creating the Sorting System? At the very least, Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw being closet egotists since they only wanted to take in wouldn't teach students like who didn't take after themselves, only wanted to nurture the traits and talents they were best known for, and ensured their own legacy by guaranteeing that generations upon generations of students would grow up to emulate and live by their House Founder's own traits and values. While while Helga Hufflepuff valued loyalty, honesty, fair play, and hard work, she accepted was noteworthy for not only being the ''only one'' willing to teach any student, but treating them all students equally regardless of whether or not they possessed these traits... [[NoGoodDeedGoesUnpunished displayed her favored traits.
** Did Godric Gryffindor, Salazar Slytherin,
and thus got derisively remembered as Rowena Ravenclaw really snap up the Founder who took in the other three's table scraps]]. This also sparks a debate over whether best and brightest students while Helga Hufflepuff really took in the leftover students not bright unremarkable leftovers (as is generally agreed in-universe and out), or talented enough for the other Houses... Or if was she was the OnlySaneWoman who took her job ''as as a teacher'' ''teacher'' seriously; willing to take in and teach educate ''any'' magical student in need regardless of learning, whether or not just those who they took after her, or could stroke her own ego or bring glory to her own house glory?legacy?

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* Why did [[AbusiveParents Petunia and Vernon Dursley]] even take Harry in if they hated him, and by extension, wizards and magic in general, so much? Was it because deep down, Petunia really did care about her sister Lily and wish to protect her son? Or did Dumbledore badger them into doing it and left them with no choice but to agree to take in Harry? Harry was a literal DoorstopBaby, and the only explanation as to why he was there was a letter Dumbledore left explaining what had happened to Harry's parents -- a letter which described them as having been killed by an evil wizard who will kill them too unless they invoke the magical protections from the evil wizard in question by taking in the kid. How is a Muggle family going to react to that? Why would they believe that? More importantly, why would the old reactionary ''Vernon'' believe that? Why wouldn't they go to the Muggle police (since if you find an abandoned child, especially a baby, you’re supposed to report them to the authorities even if it's claimed that the baby in question is related to you), or at the very least ask Dumbledore for some clarification? Did Dumbledore even leave them any way to contact him so they could actually talk to him about this arrangement? Petunia does prevent Vernon from actually kicking Harry out, but that could be for either one of the above reasons.

to:

* Why did [[AbusiveParents Petunia and Vernon Dursley]] even take Harry in if they hated him, and by extension, wizards and magic in general, so much? Was it because deep down, Petunia really did care about her sister Lily and wish to protect her son? Or did Dumbledore badger them into doing it and left them with no choice but to agree to take in Harry? Harry was a literal DoorstopBaby, and the only explanation as to why he was there was a letter Dumbledore left explaining what had happened to Harry's parents -- a letter which described them as having been killed by an evil wizard who will kill them too unless they invoke the magical protections from the evil wizard in question by taking in the kid. How is a Muggle family going to react to that? Why would they believe that? More importantly, why would the old reactionary ''Vernon'' believe that? Why wouldn't they go to the Muggle police (since if you find an abandoned child, especially a baby, you’re supposed to report them to the authorities even if it's claimed that the baby in question is related to you), or at the very least ask Dumbledore for some clarification? Did Dumbledore even leave them any way to contact him so they could actually talk to him about this arrangement? Petunia does prevent Vernon from actually kicking Harry out, but that could be for either one of the above reasons.reasons.
* In Harry's Fifth Year, the Sorting Hat [[https://www.hp-lexicon.org/thing/sorting-hat-songs/ sings a song]] warning about the dangers of division, and calls for House unity and reconciliation. It starts off describing how the first three founders selected students with traits most like their own, and in each verse last describes how Helga Hufflepuff took in all without favoritism or discrimination. The Hat then describes how Salazar Slytherin only wanted children from pureblood families to be admitted, which created AHouseDivided. The Hat then concludes the song by admitting it's "condemned" to continue Sorting students, and worries if this causes more harm than good. While most fans and in-universe characters take the song to mean the dangers of pureblood supremacy from Slytherins, there is an argument to be made for the Hat actually imploring listeners to take a page out of ''Helga Hufflepuff'''s book ? The Hat first describes how the other founders only wanted students that emulated themselves, before describing how Helga would "take the lot and treat them just the same" and "Good Hufflepuff, she took the rest and taught them all she knew," before wondering if the Sorting itself leads to division? Is the Sorting Hat really warning against the dangers of pureblood supremacy alone, or is wondering/lamenting if arbitrarily dividing young students and teaching them to value only certain traits and values will lead to tribalism and division?
-->''Though condemned I am to split you''\\
''still I worry that it’s wrong,''\\
''though I must fulfill my duty''\\
''and must quarter every year''\\
''still I wonder whether sorting''\\
''may not bring the end I fear.''
* On that note, as the Hogwarts [[AbsurdlyDividedSchool House system]] comes under increased scrutiny over time by readers (see Harry Potter's BrokenBase and StrawmanHasAPoint pages), the same goes for the Founders. There's a case to be made for not just Salazar Slytherin, but Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw being closet egotists since they only wanted to take in students like themselves, only wanted to nurture the traits and talents they were best known for, and ensured their own legacy by guaranteeing that generations upon generations of students would grow up to emulate and live by their House Founder's own traits and values. While Helga Hufflepuff valued loyalty, honesty, fair play, and hard work, she accepted all students regardless of whether or not they possessed these traits... [[NoGoodDeedGoesUnpunished and thus got derisively remembered as the Founder who took in the other three's table scraps]]. This also sparks a debate over whether Helga Hufflepuff really took in the leftover students not bright or talented enough for the other Houses... Or if she was the OnlySaneWoman who took her job ''as a teacher'' seriously; willing to take in and teach ''any'' magical student in need of learning, not just those who could stroke her own ego or bring her own house glory?
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Insufficient justification


* Lily Potter is often thought of as a CanonSue. [[CharacterShilling Very few characters have anything mean to say about her]], and those who do usually hold a grudge against her of some sort (like Petunia, who became TheUnfavourite). Unlike James, we see little to suggest that she had any negative qualities. But her relationship with Snape complicates matters somewhat, as she did stand up for him when he was being bullied but broke off their friendship pretty abruptly (even though he did call her a "Mudblood", which given the environment was a pretty shocking thing to say to someone) and is later shown to be tight with all the Marauders. Some fans think she was NotSoAboveItAll and secretly approved of James' treatment of Snape once she was convinced he was unrepentant of his actions. The less sane ones who [[DracoInLeatherPants glorify Snape]] think she overreacted to break it off with Snape to begin with (again, he used a ''slur'' against her, and this was not the only thing he did to piss her off).

to:

* Lily Potter is often thought of as a CanonSue. [[CharacterShilling Very few characters have anything mean to say about her]], Lily Potter]], and those who do usually hold a grudge against her of some sort (like Petunia, who became TheUnfavourite). Unlike James, we see little to suggest that she had any negative qualities. But her relationship with Snape complicates matters somewhat, as she did stand up for him when he was being bullied but broke off their friendship pretty abruptly (even though he did call her a "Mudblood", which given the environment was a pretty shocking thing to say to someone) and is later shown to be tight with all the Marauders. Some fans think she was NotSoAboveItAll and secretly approved of James' treatment of Snape once she was convinced he was unrepentant of his actions. The less sane ones who [[DracoInLeatherPants glorify Snape]] think she overreacted to break it off with Snape to begin with (again, he used a ''slur'' against her, and this was not the only thing he did to piss her off).
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*** Its founder, Salazar Slytherin, is not painted well in the books - he was known to have built the Chamber of Secrets, which housed the Muggle-killing Basilisk, and he did have a falling out with the other founders over whether or not to accept Muggle-born students. This suggests that he really was a Pureblood supremacist, but one interpretation suggests that since the BurnTheWitch trope was alive and well at the time[[note]]Which is itself problematic under [[AllThereInTheManual the accepted timeline]], because Hogwarts was apparently founded in the late 10th Century and the large-scale witch-hunts didn't get underway until the mid-15th Century, but [[AnachronismStew whatever]][[/note]], he didn't have anything against Muggles ''per se'', but was a pragmatist who didn't want to open the school up to attack by Muggles. Under this interpretation, the Chamber of Secrets was a defence against a possible attack. Others suggest that the Basilisk wasn't intended to kill people, but Tom Riddle found a way to change that.

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*** Its founder, Salazar Slytherin, is not painted well in the books - he was known to have built the Chamber of Secrets, which housed the Muggle-killing Basilisk, and he did have a falling out with the other founders over whether or not to accept Muggle-born students. This suggests that he really was a Pureblood supremacist, but one interpretation suggests that since the BurnTheWitch trope was alive and well at the time[[note]]Which is itself problematic under [[AllThereInTheManual the accepted timeline]], because Hogwarts was apparently founded in the late 10th Century and the large-scale witch-hunts didn't get underway until the mid-15th Century, but [[AnachronismStew whatever]][[/note]], he didn't have anything against Muggles ''per se'', but was a pragmatist who didn't want to open the school up to attack by Muggles. Under this interpretation, the Chamber of Secrets was a defence against a possible attack. Others suggest that the Basilisk wasn't intended to kill people, but Tom Riddle found a way to change that. [[https://magelet-301.tumblr.com/post/120036670647/here-it-is-canon-evidence-that-salazar-slytherin This article on Tumblr adds to this case]]
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** Others are more nuanced; they say that Snape's just after power. He was indeed mistreated by his father, by the Marauders, by Voldemort, even by Dumbledore, but this [[FreudianExcuseIsNoExcuse doesn't excuse him from becoming an asshole]], and an asshole is what he became. He does deserve some sympathy for the bullying he went through, but he still sought power and observed that the bullies ''had'' power, and thus he became a bully himself as a means of having that power for himself. He's particularly shown to target vulnerable kids, like Harry (who's been through a lot himself), Hermione (who's more sensitive than the others), Ron (in some ways the ButtMonkey), and Neville (in ''many'' ways the ButtMonkey); meanwhile, he shows extraordinary favouritism to Malfoy, whose parents [[ScrewTheRulesIHaveConnections happen to be well-connected]]. His working for Dumbledore is seen as opportunistic, given that Dumbledore's patronage likely saved him from a stint in Azkaban for his actions as a Death Eater. Even his interactions with the Marauders as adults seem to follow this pattern; yes, they were cruel to him and nearly [[DeadlyPrank killed him with a prank]], but ''he'' was willing to [[YourSoulIsMine feed Sirius to the Dementors]] rather than turn him over to Dumbledore.
** Does his RedemptionQuest excuse his abusive approach to education? On the face of it, he's an asshole teacher who picks on students and would have likely been even crueller to Harry had he not been Lily's son. But some claim that he was really a StealthMentor who wanted to teach his students about the reality of the dangerous world they were facing (but couldn't outright because he's a SlaveToPR and has to be a believable mole). For instance, in ''Prisoner of Azkaban'' his stint filling in for Lupin as Defence Against the Dark Arts professor was a way to subtly warn the students that he was a werewolf, and he would likely not have ''bothered'' teaching Harry the art of [[PsychicBlockDefense Occlumency]] had he not believed that it could be useful to him. Others counter that Snape is still not doing a very good job of preparing students for the outside world, that he wanted to out Lupin as a werewolf because he hated him and wanted his job, and that he taught Occlumency to Harry so poorly that not only did Harry not really learn it, he was unwilling to go back to Snape for help when Voldemort started feeding him visions.

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** Others are more nuanced; they say that Snape's just after power. He was indeed mistreated by his father, by the Marauders, by Voldemort, even by Dumbledore, but this [[FreudianExcuseIsNoExcuse doesn't excuse him from becoming an asshole]], and an asshole is what he became. He does deserve some sympathy for the bullying he went through, but he still sought power and observed that the bullies ''had'' power, and thus he became a bully himself as a means of having that power for himself. He's particularly shown to target vulnerable kids, like Harry (who's been through a lot himself), Hermione (who's more sensitive than the others), Ron (in some ways the ButtMonkey), and Neville (in ''many'' ways the ButtMonkey); meanwhile, he shows extraordinary favouritism to Malfoy, whose parents [[ScrewTheRulesIHaveConnections happen to be well-connected]]. His working for Dumbledore is seen as opportunistic, given that Dumbledore's patronage likely saved him from a stint in Azkaban for his actions as a Death Eater. Even his interactions with the Marauders as adults seem to follow this pattern; yes, they were cruel to him and nearly [[DeadlyPrank killed him with a prank]], but ''he'' was willing to [[YourSoulIsMine feed Sirius to the Dementors]] rather than turn him over to Dumbledore.
Dumbledore. It's also worth noting that in his worst memory, despite the fact that it's stated that a significant amount of students were outside watching, ''no one'' other than Lily stood up for him, which says volumes about his character as a teenager.
** Does his RedemptionQuest excuse his abusive approach to education? On the face of it, he's an asshole teacher who picks on students and would have likely been even crueller to Harry had he not been Lily's son. But some claim that he was really a StealthMentor who wanted to teach his students about the reality of the dangerous world they were facing (but couldn't outright because he's a SlaveToPR and has to be a believable mole). For instance, in ''Prisoner of Azkaban'' his stint filling in for Lupin as Defence Against the Dark Arts professor was a way to subtly warn the students that he was a werewolf, and he would likely not have ''bothered'' teaching Harry the art of [[PsychicBlockDefense Occlumency]] had he not believed that it could be useful to him. Others counter that Snape is still not doing a very good job of preparing students for the outside world, that he wanted to out Lupin as a werewolf because he hated him and wanted his job, and that he taught Occlumency to Harry so poorly that not only did Harry not really learn it, he was unwilling to go back to Snape for help when Voldemort started feeding him visions. Additionally, many feel that while some of his comments can be excused as keeping his cover, there's also many instances where his cruelty and pettiness cross a line, such as his "I see no difference" line to Hermione.



** Harry's abrupt discovery of what James [[BigManOnCampus was like in school]] may [[VoodooShark raise more questions than it solves]]. When other characters talk about James before this point, one gets the impression that he was a genuinely upstanding guy all along. When Harry behaves like a good guy, everyone talks about how proud James would have been. His former professors like [=McGonagall=], who wouldn't mince words about him having once been an asshole, speak universally positively of him. Even Voldemort treats him as a WorthyOpponent when he duels him (and does so again in ''Goblet of Fire'' when his echo appears out of the ''Priori Incantatem''). But James acts like ''such'' an asshole when we see him in {{Flashback}} that it seems to make these earlier characterisations of him inconsistent, and it can even diminish the EmotionalTorque of his character on a second reading. It just seems like there are two totally distinct versions of James, for the sake of an AssPull, and readers don't have any idea of which one is the "real" one.

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** Harry's abrupt discovery of what James [[BigManOnCampus was like in school]] may [[VoodooShark raise more questions than it solves]]. When other characters talk about James before this point, one gets the impression that he was a genuinely upstanding guy all along. When Harry behaves like a good guy, everyone talks about how proud James would have been. His former professors like [=McGonagall=], who wouldn't mince words about him having once been an asshole, speak universally positively of him. Even Voldemort treats him as a WorthyOpponent when he duels him (and does so again in ''Goblet of Fire'' when his echo appears out of the ''Priori Incantatem''). But James acts like ''such'' an asshole when we see him in {{Flashback}} that it seems to make these earlier characterisations of him inconsistent, and it can even diminish the EmotionalTorque of his character on a second reading. It just seems like there are two totally distinct versions of James, for the sake of an AssPull, and readers don't have any idea of which one is the "real" one. That being said, it's hardly unrealistic for people to be obnoxious idiots at fifteen and then do a lot of maturing later on.



* Is Cornelius Fudge a BlackShirt hoping Voldemort might give him power? Is he a HorribleJudgeOfCharacter in refusing to believe Harry? Is he just a DirtyCoward politican trying to keep his job?

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* Is Cornelius Fudge a BlackShirt hoping Voldemort might give him power? Is he a HorribleJudgeOfCharacter in refusing to believe Harry? Is he just a DirtyCoward politican trying to keep his job?job? Did he ever care about Harry during their interactions in Book 3, or was he just trying to butter up the Boy Who Lived?
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** Others are more nuanced: They say that Snape's just after power. He was indeed mistreated by his father, by the Marauders, by Voldemort, even by Dumbledore, but this [[FreudianExcuseIsNoExcuse doesn't excuse him from becoming an asshole]], and an asshole is what he became. He does deserve some sympathy for the bullying he went through, but he still sought power and observed that the bullies ''had'' power, and thus he became a bully himself as a means of having that power for himself. He's particularly shown to target vulnerable kids, like Harry (who's been through a lot himself), Hermione (who's more sensitive than the others), Ron (in some ways the ButtMonkey), and Neville (in ''many'' ways the ButtMonkey); meanwhile, he shows extraordinary favouritism to Malfoy, whose parents [[ScrewTheRulesIHaveConnections happen to be well-connected]]. His working for Dumbledore is seen as opportunistic, given that Dumbledore's patronage likely saved him from a stint in Azkaban for his actions as a Death Eater. Even his interactions with the Marauders as adults seem to follow this pattern; yes, they were cruel to him and nearly [[DeadlyPrank killed him with a prank]], but ''he'' was willing to [[YourSoulIsMine feed Sirius to the Dementors]] rather than turn him over to Dumbledore.

to:

** Others are more nuanced: They nuanced; they say that Snape's just after power. He was indeed mistreated by his father, by the Marauders, by Voldemort, even by Dumbledore, but this [[FreudianExcuseIsNoExcuse doesn't excuse him from becoming an asshole]], and an asshole is what he became. He does deserve some sympathy for the bullying he went through, but he still sought power and observed that the bullies ''had'' power, and thus he became a bully himself as a means of having that power for himself. He's particularly shown to target vulnerable kids, like Harry (who's been through a lot himself), Hermione (who's more sensitive than the others), Ron (in some ways the ButtMonkey), and Neville (in ''many'' ways the ButtMonkey); meanwhile, he shows extraordinary favouritism to Malfoy, whose parents [[ScrewTheRulesIHaveConnections happen to be well-connected]]. His working for Dumbledore is seen as opportunistic, given that Dumbledore's patronage likely saved him from a stint in Azkaban for his actions as a Death Eater. Even his interactions with the Marauders as adults seem to follow this pattern; yes, they were cruel to him and nearly [[DeadlyPrank killed him with a prank]], but ''he'' was willing to [[YourSoulIsMine feed Sirius to the Dementors]] rather than turn him over to Dumbledore.

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Trying to break up text wall by splitting into subsections and reducing unnecessary waffle.


** Dumbledore is gay, which was heavily implied in the last book but only ever confirmed via WordOfGay which raises several questions. This paints his relationship with his EvilFormerFriend Grindelwald in a different light now that we know the HomoeroticSubtext behind it. Theories abound, including: Grindelwald was straight but unaware of Dumbledore's feelings; he was straight ''and'' aware, but he didn't know how to respond; he was gay but not in love with Dumbledore; he was in love with him but tragically opposed to his "better half"'s sense of morality; or he didn't care about him at all, but manipulated his feelings for his own ends. There's also the question about how much anyone knew or suspected generally speaking and how much Harry knew or would have cared more specifically given how much he idolized him. His friend Elphias makes a pretty overt joke about it at Bill's wedding and Ron's great-great aunt says there were always "strange rumours" about him in the same conversation. Rita Skeeter also dances pretty close to outright calling him [[AllGaysArePedophiles a pedophile]] for taking an interest in Harry. All of this might have gone over Harry's head but he also goes out of his way to tell Dumbledore in their King's Cross conversation that Grindelwald died refusing to let Voldemort desecrate his tomb to comfort him, suggesting that Harry may have actually known (or at least suspected) and didn't care. The ''Fantastic Beasts'' movies add even more ambiguity to the relationship. Dumbledore tells one of the ministry guys they were "closer than brothers" and there is some pretty obvious HomoEroticSubtext (like them holding hands while making a blood pact) but once again if it was truly reciprocated hasn't been made clear (yet). The fact that they may or may not have been a couple doesn’t actually seem to be a secret per se at that point of time. A high ranking official in the Ministry straight up asks if he’s delaying fighting him out of lingering affection. Grindelwald comes off as jealous when he talks to Newt about him on two different occasions but it could out of romantic jealousy or just from the fact that his one magical equal regularly talks to and likes someone (in Grindelwald’s eyes) as weird and inferior as Newt while they haven't spoken in almost thirty years. There's also reason to believe that Newt knows or suspects the truth. WordOfGod from [[http://harryahistory.com/2010/02/vault-xx-dumbledore-and-grinde.html JK Rowling herself]] is ambiguous:

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** Dumbledore is gay, which was heavily implied in the last book but only ever confirmed via WordOfGay which raises several questions. This paints questions:
*** For starters, there's the question of the nature
his relationship with his EvilFormerFriend Grindelwald in a different light now that we know the HomoeroticSubtext behind it.Grindelwald. Theories abound, including: Grindelwald was straight but unaware of Dumbledore's feelings; he was straight ''and'' aware, but he didn't know how to respond; he was gay but not in love with Dumbledore; he was in love with him but tragically opposed to his "better half"'s sense of morality; or he didn't care about him at all, but manipulated his feelings for his own ends.
***
There's also the question about how much anyone else knew or suspected generally speaking and how much Harry knew or would have cared more specifically given how much he idolized him.suspected. His friend Elphias makes a pretty overt joke about it at Bill's wedding and Ron's great-great aunt says there were always "strange rumours" about him in the same conversation. Rita Skeeter also dances pretty close to outright calling him [[AllGaysArePedophiles a pedophile]] paedophile]] for taking an interest in Harry. All of this might have gone over Harry's head but he also goes out of his way to tell Dumbledore in their King's Cross conversation that Grindelwald died refusing to let Voldemort desecrate his tomb to comfort him, suggesting that Harry may have actually known (or at least suspected) and didn't care.
***
The ''Fantastic Beasts'' movies add even more ambiguity to the relationship. Dumbledore tells one of the ministry guys a Ministry official that they were "closer than brothers" and there is some pretty obvious HomoEroticSubtext (like them holding hands while making a blood pact) but once again if it was truly reciprocated hasn't been made clear (yet). The fact that they may or may not have been a couple doesn’t actually seem to be a secret per se at that point of time. A high ranking official in the Ministry straight up asks if he’s delaying fighting him out of lingering affection. Grindelwald comes off as jealous when he talks to Newt about him on two different occasions occasions, but it could out of romantic jealousy or just from the fact that his one magical equal regularly talks to and likes someone (in Grindelwald’s eyes) as weird and inferior as Newt while they haven't spoken in almost thirty years.is unclear whether this ''romantic'' jealousy. There's also reason to believe that Newt knows or suspects the truth. WordOfGod from [[http://harryahistory.com/2010/02/vault-xx-dumbledore-and-grinde.html JK Rowling herself]] is ambiguous:
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** Are they really the GoodParents everyone makes them out to be? One theory suggests that they're selfish, wanting to make life as hard for their children as it was for them, or at least irresponsibly having more children than they could afford to raise. Molly's behaviour on this front is [[UnfortunateImplications particularly concerning]], given that the narrative establishes that she wanted a daughter so badly that they kept having children until they got one, making the family bigger than it needed to be (and also leaving Ron as TheUnfavourite). These theorists also point to Arthur keeping a menial job at the Ministry because he liked it so much, even though he could have been paid more elsewhere (although in ''Goblet of Fire'' it's suggested that he's being kept down there for liking Muggles too much).

to:

** Are they really the GoodParents everyone makes them out to be? One theory suggests that they're selfish, wanting to make life as hard for their children as it was for them, or at least irresponsibly having more children than they could afford to raise. Molly's behaviour on this front is [[UnfortunateImplications particularly concerning]], given that the narrative establishes that she wanted a daughter so badly that they kept having children until they got one, making the family bigger than it needed to be (and also leaving Ron as TheUnfavourite).TheUnfavourite, not to mention the twins who don't count when Molly is gushing over "everyone in the family" being a prefect). These theorists also point to Arthur keeping a menial job at the Ministry because he liked it so much, even though he could have been paid more elsewhere (although in ''Goblet of Fire'' it's suggested that he's being kept down there for liking Muggles too much).

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** Dumbledore is gay which was heavily implied in the last book but only ever confirmed via WordOfGay which raises several questions. This paints his relationship with his EvilFormerFriend Grindelwald in a different light now that we know the HomoeroticSubtext behind it. Theories abound, including: Grindelwald was straight but unaware of Dumbledore's feelings; he was straight ''and'' aware, but he didn't know how to respond; he was gay but not in love with Dumbledore; he was in love with him but tragically opposed to his "better half"'s sense of morality; or he didn't care about him at all, but manipulated his feelings for his own ends. There's also the question about how much anyone knew or suspected generally speaking and how much Harry knew or would have cared more specifically given how much he idolized him. His friend Elphias makes a pretty overt joke about it at Bill's wedding and Ron's great-great aunt says there were always "strange rumours" about him in the same conversation. Rita Skeeter also dances pretty close to outright calling him [[AllGaysArePedophiles a pedophile]] for taking an interest in Harry. All of this might have gone over Harry's head but he also goes out of his way to tell Dumbledore in their King's Cross conversation that Grindelwald died refusing to let Voldemort desecrate his tomb to comfort him, suggesting that Harry may have actually known (or at least suspected) and didn't care. The ''Fantastic Beasts'' movies add even more ambiguity to the relationship. Dumbledore tells one of the ministry guys they were "closer than brothers" and there is some pretty obvious HomoEroticSubtext (like them holding hands while making a blood pact) but once again if it was truly reciprocated hasn't been made clear (yet). The fact that they may or may not have been a couple doesn’t actually seem to be a secret per se at that point of time. A high ranking official in the Ministry straight up asks if he’s delaying fighting him out of lingering affection. Grindelwald comes off as jealous when he talks to Newt about him on two different occasions but it could out of romantic jealousy or just from the fact that his one magical equal regularly talks to and likes someone (in Grindelwald’s eyes) as weird and inferior as Newt while they haven't spoken in almost thirty years. There's also reason to believe that Newt knows or suspects the truth. WordOfGod from [[http://harryahistory.com/2010/02/vault-xx-dumbledore-and-grinde.html JK Rowling herself]] is ambiguous:

to:

** Dumbledore is gay gay, which was heavily implied in the last book but only ever confirmed via WordOfGay which raises several questions. This paints his relationship with his EvilFormerFriend Grindelwald in a different light now that we know the HomoeroticSubtext behind it. Theories abound, including: Grindelwald was straight but unaware of Dumbledore's feelings; he was straight ''and'' aware, but he didn't know how to respond; he was gay but not in love with Dumbledore; he was in love with him but tragically opposed to his "better half"'s sense of morality; or he didn't care about him at all, but manipulated his feelings for his own ends. There's also the question about how much anyone knew or suspected generally speaking and how much Harry knew or would have cared more specifically given how much he idolized him. His friend Elphias makes a pretty overt joke about it at Bill's wedding and Ron's great-great aunt says there were always "strange rumours" about him in the same conversation. Rita Skeeter also dances pretty close to outright calling him [[AllGaysArePedophiles a pedophile]] for taking an interest in Harry. All of this might have gone over Harry's head but he also goes out of his way to tell Dumbledore in their King's Cross conversation that Grindelwald died refusing to let Voldemort desecrate his tomb to comfort him, suggesting that Harry may have actually known (or at least suspected) and didn't care. The ''Fantastic Beasts'' movies add even more ambiguity to the relationship. Dumbledore tells one of the ministry guys they were "closer than brothers" and there is some pretty obvious HomoEroticSubtext (like them holding hands while making a blood pact) but once again if it was truly reciprocated hasn't been made clear (yet). The fact that they may or may not have been a couple doesn’t actually seem to be a secret per se at that point of time. A high ranking official in the Ministry straight up asks if he’s delaying fighting him out of lingering affection. Grindelwald comes off as jealous when he talks to Newt about him on two different occasions but it could out of romantic jealousy or just from the fact that his one magical equal regularly talks to and likes someone (in Grindelwald’s eyes) as weird and inferior as Newt while they haven't spoken in almost thirty years. There's also reason to believe that Newt knows or suspects the truth. WordOfGod from [[http://harryahistory.com/2010/02/vault-xx-dumbledore-and-grinde.html JK Rowling herself]] is ambiguous:
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* Marietta Edgecombe is a minor character who made a big impact by turning over Dumbledore's Army to Umbridge. She was found out because Hermione secretly cast a spell that would give away any snitches - by effectively disfiguring their face. Fans are on two sides as to how sympathetic Marietta is. On the one hand, she was scared of Umbridge (and her mother worked for her, which added to the pressure), and Hermione's secret spell seemed rather cruel and {{disproportionate|retribution}}. On the other hand, she effectively ended the only self-defence course available anywhere on campus, which Harry argues put practically everyone in danger (especially given that the students risked expulsion, which includes a prohibition from owning a wand or using magic).

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* Marietta Edgecombe is a minor character who made a big impact by turning over Dumbledore's Army to Umbridge. She was found out because Hermione secretly cast a spell that would give away any snitches - by effectively disfiguring their face. Fans are on two sides as to how sympathetic Marietta is. On the one hand, she was scared of Umbridge (and her mother worked for her, which added to the pressure), and Hermione's secret spell seemed rather cruel and {{disproportionate|retribution}}. On the other hand, she effectively ended the only self-defence course available anywhere on campus, to any of the students, which Harry argues put practically everyone in danger (especially given that the students risked expulsion, which includes a prohibition from owning a wand or using magic).
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** What was the nature of Ginny's relationship with Tom Riddle in her first year? Harry doesn't learn much about what Tom's diary did to her; he suspects it [[{{Brainwashing}} brainwashed]] her into committing some horrible acts. But some people wonder how much control Ginny really had. Was she tricked into doing it by a nice, friendly-seeming stranger? When she realized what was happening to her, why didn't she tell anyone? Was that mind control too, was she afraid of facing the consequences of her actions (whether they were intentional or not), or was she afraid of people finding out about their friendship? By her account, she had no control over her actions and couldn't reconcile them (even asking Tom if she was going insane), but should Harry believe her, and if that were true, could she plausibly hold up mentally as well as she did? And, since this is fan-fiction: [[UnequalPairing was she in love with him, or was it mutual, or what?]] (Extremely unlikely, as Voldemort canonically [[WhatIsThisThingYouCallLove cannot understand love]] and she's [[SingleTargetSexuality only got eyes for Harry]], but again, this is fan-fiction.)

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** What was the nature of Ginny's relationship with Tom Riddle in her first year? Harry doesn't learn much about what Tom's diary did to her; he suspects it [[{{Brainwashing}} brainwashed]] her into committing some horrible acts. But some people wonder how much control Ginny really had. Was she tricked into doing it by a nice, friendly-seeming stranger? When she realized what was happening to her, why didn't she tell anyone? Was that mind control too, was she afraid of facing the consequences of her actions (whether they were intentional or not), or was she afraid of people finding out about their friendship? By her account, she had no control over her actions and couldn't reconcile recall them (even asking Tom if she was going insane), but should Harry believe her, and if that were true, could she plausibly hold up mentally as well as she did? And, since this is fan-fiction: [[UnequalPairing was she in love with him, or was it mutual, or what?]] (Extremely unlikely, as Voldemort canonically [[WhatIsThisThingYouCallLove cannot understand love]] and she's [[SingleTargetSexuality only got eyes for Harry]], but again, this is fan-fiction.)

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