Discussion YMMV / TheElderscrollsVSkyrim

Movarth was just an example of a character who had been experienced at fighting vampires but failed to detect them. Virtually everyone in Skyrim is unable to detect vampirism if they're not actively looking for it; even Isran's method of telling if someone is a vampire is to trap them in a room and flood it with sunlight rather than anything more passive and subtle. Falion will only note you're a vampire if you specifically come to him and talk to him directly, and Alva would have every reason to avoid Falion.

Alva trying to seduce all the men in Morthal is suspicious, but only in the sense that she's, y'know, seducing men sexually. The general response to a woman going around trying to seduce men is typically going to be that she's a loose woman, not that she's a vampire. Point in case is that Idgrod acts surprised that Alva actually is a vampire, rather than just being sexually aggressive to all the men in town. I wouldn't remotely call the Mortal reaction to Alva as an idiotic moment, since it makes sense that the people would think that she's just loose and aggressive and not an undead monster plotting to kill everyone and take over the city.

Idiot Plot is not simply multiple characters carrying the Idiot Ball. Idiot Plot is for when the entire plot hinges entirely on everyone involved acting like idiots, not simply a couple of characters having idiot moments that let the plot move forward. For this to be an Idiot Plot, everyone in Morthal would have to be acting like morons the entire way through. A couple of characters make boneheaded individual decisions like Alva keeping her journal and Thonnir refusing to accept your story about Laelette, but for the most part the plot progresses rationally.

Okay, points conceded.

The Alva thing was what bugged me the most, because it just seemed unlikely. In a village that small, I figured she'd anger women who feared their husband's fidelity or that she'd steal the men. Vampire or not, it seemed improbable that she'd avoid suspicion and hate.

But okay, fictional town and fictional people, so point made.

It's the almost that does it. Redguards and nonhumans (especially Redguards, because black people exist in the real world and lizard-people don't) all having white, human kids because the programmers thought it unimportant/were too lazy to fix it is a little... well... unfortunate.

• Posted under wrong place*

Disregard.

Eagal did take it out for some reason, don't know why exactly.

Not sure why, either. I just put it back.

This thread is where you want to go. Complete Monster is such a controversial trope that changes to it are required to be made in that thread.

The Thalmor are excluded because groups cannot be Complete Monsters. Individual members of the Thalmor can be though.

Grelod was most likely removed because her crimes are nowhere near as heinous as those of other characters in the franchise.

I did the removals. We agreed that Grelod didn't count because she's nothing compared to other villains in the Elder Scrolls, and also because of Offstage Villainy. Vasha was removed due to Offstage Villainy as well as the Dragon Priests. The player was removed because Video Game Cruelty Potential does not count.

So, let me see if I have this understood.

If in the next game, there was somebody who murders his wife, has murdered his kids, maybe murdered a few other people and even taunts you about it when you confront him, laughs about it and maybe even makes a macarbe joke about it, and this all happens off the camera he's not a Complete Monster because you don't see him do it and he doesn't want to blow up the world?

Because that's what it sounds like.

That's exactly right.

Fashionably late, but I just gotta say.

Wow. Fucking wow.

Guess that's one trope that's been fucked to high-heaven, then.

(Let me just go on the record saying I love this site and I'm not upset at you in particular for just trying to do your part for this site, but goddamn, I think "cleanup" on the Complete Monster trope has really hit some people most people would agree would qualify.)

(And I'll take it this is the same reason Thonar Silver-Blood was removed as well?)

And the Nord perspective has nothing to do with propaganda? Even going off what you see with your own eyes in 'The Forsworn Conspiracy' and its sequel, the Silver-Bloods and their cronies have perpetrated some pretty evil shit against the Forsworn (and, for that matter, everyone else in Markarth).

Besides, Madanach isn't the only one with horror stories to share. You talked to the other prisoners in Cidhna Mine?

The Reach is essentially the site of a protracted and bitter territorial war, and difficult to assess morally. Both sides consider loss of the Reach absolutely unacceptable, so both commit atrocities to keep it. The Forsworn are native to the region and have been cruelly forced out and suppressed, but practice banditry and black magic in their attempt to retake it. The Nords have built a largely peaceful, respectable society, but only through invasion and continued covert violence and corruption on the part of their rulers. Both sides have sympathetic motivations, and either might even be a fine, noble people if they weren't at war with the other.

Not just covert violence, either. Ulfric's actions during the retaking of Markarth are pretty unambiguously described as war crimes.

Interestingly, the Forsworn's two-year reign of the city was apparently pretty bloodless. All they did was lynch some rich, corrupt Nord landowners and let everyone else get on with their lives. Given how the conflict since then has brutalised them, though, it's hard to say whether or not they'd be so considerate a second time.

That's difficult to prove either way since every source on it is, in universe, either Silver-Blood or Forsworn propaganda, there isn't much in the way of objective info.

Ok, basically my main point is this: Madanach and his forces can preach about their "right to rule" and how they were swindled all they want, but in the end, does any of it justify mass murder, human sacrifice, cannibalism and association with one of the most unambigously depraved monster races in Skyrim?

Mass murder? Not seeing much more of that than is average for a bunch of loosely-organised bandits. Cannibalism, assuming it's not just Nord propaganda, seems to be a cultural thing (the Bosmer also practice it, and nobody's calling them Complete Monsters), and the human sacrifices seem pretty willing, if you're talking about the Briarhearts.

I'm not seeing much monsterhood here, just people in a desperate situation forced to go to extremes that would otherwise be unimaginable.

You can come across a Forsworn camp where you'll find a dead Nord whose skull is being applied to a grindstone; if you sneak up on the Forsworn without being detected, he'll tell another how Nord bones make for excellent material for weapons.

There's also the girl near the Pyrite shrine who was killed (and implied to have been raped) by Forsworn. Isolated incident, sure, but the Forsworn aren't rosy.

Agreed. I didn't even add the original comment, but the entire point to Unfortunate Implications is that it's unfortunate.

Ironically, you're even using Aryan incorrectly. Even if it did mean 'white' (which it doesn't), it's irrelevant because no element of what they actually do parallels national socialism. I don't add references to random imperialist regimes in empire-related lines because they aren't relevant, the same goes for nationalism.

At first, it didn't even say "Aryan". It just said "fair-skinned". And it's not incorrect to say that there have been fair-skinned people who have declared that a certain nation is "for them" and persecuted other races because of it.

That's still implying that white people are racist and/or that others are incapable of it when you specifically highlight that (which is what I would call racism); while pointing out a skin colour for its own sake is being redundant.

The entire point is that it's an unfortunate point brought upon by real world standards of race and/or culture. If the race in question were all dark-skinned individuals who were uneducated, that would also be an unfortunate implication. The reason it was posted is because it's possible to draw unintended parallels between the Nords in the game and other fair-skinned people in real life who have done similar things...right down to settling the land from a distant continent, and driving the natives into becoming brutal tribes determined to take it back, all the while claiming that it's your land.

Are we really having an argument over YMMV tropes? It seems a little ironic. In any case, I'm with King Zeal on this one.

Surely we either go broad - that Nord racial-nationalist rhetoric sounds uncomfortably like real-life racist slogans - or right to the relevant specifics - that it reminds us of Nazi groups who rely heavily on "Nordic" racial identity. If Skyrim's Nords weren't based on RL Nords, or if the Nazis used a different people for the basis of their white-racial-identity mythmaking, the specific wouldn't work, but the general would.

I'm honestly not seeing the Nord/Nazi parallel. Nazis—aside from being fair-skinned Europeans—are most often known by their fascism, racial intolerance, labor camps, aims of world domination, and reliance upon a charismatic political leader, not to mention the attempt to obliterate an entire race. Aside from fair skin, where do the Nords fit?

Well, more than you'd apparently think. Racial intolerance? Windhelm segregates Dark Elves and kills Argonians within the city limits on sight. Charismatic political leader? Ulfric Stormcloak. They're even listed on A Nazi by Any Other Name on the main page. I felt it was pretty evident that by "certain groups", they meant the Nazis, which is why I edited it to say "Aryan" instead of "fair-skinned" - in Oblivion, when you select Nord for your race during character creation, it explicitly notes that they usually have fair hair and blue eyes. Frankly, thinking that the original writer believes that all white people are racists is Insane Troll Logic. Would it be better if "certain groups" was a pothole to Those Wacky Nazis?

Yeah, but that's still highly inaccurate. Nazis aren't just fair-haired/fair-skinned racists. They're facist, genocidal, and power-hungry imperialists. And besides that, that doesn't even describe all Nords. A good number of Nords are neither fair-haired nor fair-skinned and the Legion isn't anywhere near as racist as the Stormcloaks. And the Stormcloaks aren't fascists and they aren't power-hungry. In fact, they're pretty much the opposite of that, considering they rally behind the cause for Skyrim to remain independent. You have a better case arguing that high elves (who are also fair-haired and fair-skinned AND power-hungry fascists) fit the Nazi profile than the Stormcloaks do.

All right, so perhaps comparing the Stormcloaks to Nazis isn't the way to go. Do you think it might work if we changed "certain racist groups" to "white supremacists?" I'm fairly certain that by "certain racist groups" the original editor was implying specifics (Nazis, white supremacists) rather than making a general statement.

That works well, I think.

That's much better wording.

I'm only a little way into the game, but it might be because they're an entire freakin' empire. Odds on them all being monstrously evil are low.

There's likely to be quite a lot of individual Dominion CMs, though, so jot 'em down as you see 'em.

Its a matter of terms. The Aldmeri Dominion is the *entire* empire. They are the Evil Empire, certainly, but most of the people composing it are dupes, well-meaning, the oppressed masses, or just people trying to survive.

Now, the *Thalmor*, OTOH, are largely Complete Monsters, and anyone who actually subscribes to their beliefs and goals certainly is. Its the difference between being a German vs being a Nazi.