Discussion Main / Ptitlen4fcro73tb02

Probably Natural Weapon - just added it.

Agreed - I'll hottip all that, so folks can skip it if they want to.

Winter Masques, I *think.*

Personally, I think those alternate/subcourts can be reduced to footnotes in the entry for the main court - we're getting a bit *too* detailed in this article, in my opinion.

Agreed. I do quite like the general overview of courts, seemings, and kith, but there *is* such a thing as too much detail. Maybe put these variants in a hottip?

Did it. Think I oughta put the kiths in hottips, too?

Those descriptions are short enough that I'd say they're good. A line of text isn't generally a problem. A paragraph can be.

@hobbitguy: Thanks found it.

We should, no doubt. That is kind of random.

Well, it does kinda fit the setting.

Actually, I sort of like it. I admit that the source is unorthodox, but viewed through the eyes of the game, the quote has the sort of quasi-whimsical melancholy that I feel is perfectly appropriate.

Someone just removed the page quote. I'm gonna move that the quote be added back. It's not from the game itself, but it describes the themes and mood of the thing perfectly.

for reference:

Nah, it's showing up for me.

Weird. It shows up for me now.

I'd also like to add a few things. As far as i can tell, the person who is responsible for this article getting locked has been taken care of (read: edit-banned), so it's unlikely that this sort of thing will happen again any time soon.

The lock somewhat confuses me, since as far as I can tell it and the edit-ban happened near simultaneously. Anybody know enough to guess a more accurate timeline?

I messaged Fast Eddie to remove the lock, but he has yet to respond in any way.

Hold on. The players play as the humans who were abducted by the fae, right? But traditionally the changeling is the thing that the fae replace the baby with when they abduct him or her. Or did they change it?

You are correct, traditionally it's a changeling put in the kidnapped's place. The name might be considered to be an Artifact Title from the past iteration, Changeling The Dreaming. In-game terminology has the impostors called Fetches.

Hold on, let's clarify here.

A Changeling is a person who was kidnapped by the True Fae for an indeterminable amount of time in Arcadia. Changelings are the main characters that people play in this game, not the people who replace the kidnapped person. I don't know how it is traditionally, but that's how it works in game.

Fetches are the impostors made by the True Fae to take the P Cs place, and sometimes aren't even made because the Changeling was kidnapped for years in Arcadia, but only a few hours or maybe even less in the real world. It depends really.

Fetches replace the Changeling is basically what I'm saying here.

Which is interesting, because if in traditional folklore or the old game it was Changelings that replaced the kidnapped person, what would the kidnapped and changed person be called when/if they returned?

Did you actually run the #'s, in detail? Killing Dzarumazh is flat-out laughable for any remotely sane party of Changeling PCs, even with an entire chronicle's worth of prep time. (And sure, go ahead, assemble your army of allies. Its not like he doesn't have his ow-... oh, wait, he does, and they're specifically listed as "innumerable".) Unless you are playing a chronicle where your players have access to nuclear weapons. Their sidebar is full of shit: the foe is not 'seemingly' insurmountable, he is actually so.

As for your rebuttal against Unholy Splendor, you missed something. Notably, that the max amount of Willpower any PC can have is ten, but Dzarumazh has one hundred Glamour — and Unholy Splendor in its higher form costs only 3 Glamour/turn. So, he spams 30 points of that for ten turns of Unholy Splendor, congrats: you're completely out of Willpower, and he's still got 70% of his mana pool. By the mechanics of the system, you have absolutely zero percent chance of beating this thing unless the DM deliberately has him not use all his powers. He fits the definition of Canon Sue like few others. His other stats are likewise impossibly higher than any PCs can reach: its not merely that he has 'superhuman stats', its that he has stats and abilities its mechanically impossible for player characters to compete with. Not to mention that using your initiative hax to deal in one hit is effectively pointless; the opposed die rool necessary to damage him is in 'vastly unlikely' territory, and Lord knows he has enough health levels to soak any one hit. Your only hope of downing this thing is attrition, and that's not possibe when you're spending 99+% of your time in his stunlock aura.

Pretty much all of the other objections fall along the same lines: his 'limitations' are not actually limitations. Sure, he only has access to his full physical stats in his warform, but why in the name of God would he ever fight a PC party in anything else? Its not like you can prevent him from shifting into it!

So, the 'its like great wyrms in D&D!' objection doesn't fly: Great Wyrms might be CR26 creatures, but D&D rules allow for the existence of level 26 PC parties. In CtL, on the other hand, there's a hard stat cap for player characters, and its well short of the league where you can take this thing on.

Changeling is a game about finesse, about finagling things so you wind up ahead. Changelings facing Dzarumazh would have to use the same finesse to attempt to make things run their own way. The entry on Dzarumazh doesn't list his Frailties, and any Fae so formidable would have many and/or powerful ones, for the ST to decide. Perhaps the ringing of the bells of the church closest to where he first entered the World enact a Taboo that prevent him from using his Unholy Splendor, or he suffers intense pain and damage from the bottled sighs of a true lover.

Regardless, Dzaramuzh is unbeatable in a head-to-head fight with all things equal, but for most Changelings if you've gotten into a head-to-head fight with a True Fae of *any* power, let alone this one, you've already lost. The characters should have to spend time and effort (years, perhaps, depending on the length of your chronicle) to discover the dragon's weaknesses, decipher ways to use them against him, gather allies, whittle away at the enemy's own allies, enhance their own abilities... stack the deck as much in their own favor as possible. *then,* the fight should be difficult, but - just barely - possible. Facing him without defenses is foolhardy. Facing him at a time and place that mean that he can't bring his whole might to the party, with weapons that deal him horrible harm and magics that ward you against the worst of his power... well, *that* is the Changeling way, as I see it.

Allies generally aren't a personal army, and "Dorian Hargrave" is generally distinct from "Dzarûmazh the Conqueror Worm."

"Initiative hax" and a single point of Willpower renders Unholy Splendor completely harmless for the entire scene.

"Firearms" is not the same thing as "artillery" or "bombs."

And while we're at it, there's the whole host of Contracts and Tokens you can take advantage of. There's a trifle, for instance, that automatically turns your next action into an Exceptional Success. Use that on a non-ballistic attack that deals Lethal damage and you've just taken out an eighth of his Health without even needing to worry about his Armor. You can get nine of this trifle at character generation with three Merit dots. Stacking the deck is expected on your part.

The entry on Dzarumazh doesn't list his Frailties, and any Fae so formidable would have many and/or powerful ones, for the ST to decide.

In other words, its exactly what I said — you cannot beat this thing unless the DM deliberately throws it to you. There is nothing requiring the DM to make Dzarumazh's Frailties anything you can so easily take advantage of, except the DM's own sense of mercy.

"Firearms" is not the same thing as "artillery" or "bombs."

This is another optional rules interpretation that would require DM cooperation in Dzarumazh's defeat. Specifically, the interpretation that artillery and bombs are not modern firearms.

"Initiative hax" and a single point of Willpower renders Unholy Splendor completely harmless for the entire scene.

Dead wrong. 1 point of Willpower only lasts the scene vs. the lesser form of Unholy Splendor. Vs. the greater form, the 3 Glamor/turn one, that point of Willpower only lasts the turn.

As for your point about his allies: again, you are stipulating restrictions for Dzarumazh that are not actually laid out in the text. If you have to use house rules to explain why he supposedly isn't a Canon Sue, isn't that a huge indicator that he actually is one?

There's a trifle, for instance, that automatically turns your next action into an Exceptional Success.

You mean the Givertaker? You forgot the downside: your next action after that Exceptional Success is automatically a Dramatic Failure. So if you use it to augment your attack action, your next action after that is...? Your defense roll vs. Dzarumazh's next attack. And a dramatic failure on that means you are obliterated, given what his damage codes are. So, yeah, not so useful.

As for the "-10 penalty to his attacks vs. man-sized targets" — given that his melee attack die pools are 31 and 32, respectively, that -10 isn't hampering him much. Given that even 21 and 22 dice still entirely blow you out of the water, even if you have all relevant stats and skills at 5 and are holding the biggest damn melee weapon you can lift.

Initiative: A separate discussion.

The Fresh Start merit isn't much use here; it requires a standard action to use, and if you've already been hit with Unholy Splendor level 2, you lost your action for the turn. As for 'having a high initiative': Dzarumazh's base initiative is fourteen. So if you have dexterity 5, composure 5, and maximum levels of the Fast Reflexes merit, you still have... somewhat less than even odds. And that's if you min-maxed to the limit.

It is at this point I feel the need to direct you to how frailties actually work. Dzarûmazh is guaranteed, no matter which rules you use, to possess at least one major frailty. According to core, major taboos are "substantial impediments to important aspects of daily life, and that cannot easily be avoided in the course of a normal day" and major banes are "typically much more common substances or circumstances, and will rapidly prove fatal to the unfortunate character who is exposed to them." We're talking about things that will drain Willpower to stop doing or deal lethal damage to face. If the Storyteller is playing by the RAW at all, a major frailty is not going to be a minor threat.

Every definition I've found says a firearm is a "portable gun." That means pistols, shotguns, and other ranged weapons you can outfit a person with. Not tanks. Not nukes. What kind of definition are you using where bombs count as firearms, anyway?

And you, meanwhile, are making assumptions that are not even close to reasonable for a group attempting to play the game as a way of telling a story. You're making assumptions that are contradicted by the rules themselves. Look at the fucking Allies Merit. "The kinds of requests made of people in an organization typically have to relate to their sphere of influence." "[…] a roll of Manipulation+Persuasion+Allies could determine how many police answer your character's call for help, or how many longshoremen turn up when you need a show of force (one per success rolled)." The character that has access to the Merit is Dorian Hargrave. Dorian Hargrave is, as far as the mortal world knows, a successful and somewhat eccentric businessman. Allies (innumerable) doesn't mean Allies 6+. It means he's got Allies in several places. Allies (Businessmen) 5 isn't going to help him raise an army. He might be able to pay for a mercenary team or something similar, or he might be able to call in a few favors from the local police, but that's almost assuredly facing him on his terms, which will undoubtedly have better odds for him than your terms. And, oh no, he might be able to call in *gasp* five or six mortal cops if he happens to have Allies (Police) 5! Whatever will your changeling characters do?

I'm well aware of the downside, but Defense is not rolled. It's a flat subtraction from opposing non-Firearms-based attacks. Soak rolls aren't the norm anymore. Sorry, what were you saying about house rules?

-10 on top of Armor and Defense which you would be an idiot to not be using against the giant dragon. And you can Dodge. And there are a number of kith blessings that enhance your Dodge. You seem to be under the impression that you're expected to just walk up to him and fight him completely on his terms, in which case you deserve whatever ass-kicking you receive.

As for Initiative: Catch him by surprise or get to superhuman levels of Composure yourself. You can do that. Again, you seem to be forgetting that these are changelings that will in all likelihood be dealing with Dzarly. You can raise your stats up to [Wyrd]. If you're a Beast you can actually buff that Composure+Wyrd roll with Glamour. Alternately, take advantage of the many, many, many methods of boosting your Initiative score available to you. (the Airtouched kith blessing immediately comes to mind, as do the various benefits Hedgespun gear can provide.)

You are supernatural beings who get a stealth powerset with a universal affinity cost-break. I think you can manage sneaking around. And while we're at it, Contracts of Hearth. An entire universal-affinity Contract that lets you screw around with the dice. Dice-tweaks like 8-Again for one roll, +4 for one roll, a free success for one roll, or incurring a -2 penalty on your foes next action. And none of these powers are rolled to use.

You're fairies. Play to your strengths and it'll be simple. Take advantage of your surroundings, attack in waves, use whatever bonuses and penalties you can get your hands on. Hell, try to catch him while he's Dorian Hargrave, even. Reducing the entire conflict to pure combat with nothing but his true form assumes that your Storyteller is going to be a powergaming jackass. Your complaint about Unholy Splendor in particular seems to boil down to "what if my Storyteller is a dick?"

Yes, he is guaranteed to have at least one major Frailty. But there is no guarantee that the Frailty will be one that you have the opportunity to take advantage of. The feasibility of attacking Dzarumazh via his Frailty is solely in control of the DM: if he makes it easy for you, then its easy. If he makes it nigh-impossible for you, its nigh-impossible. This ties into what I've already said; whether or not you have any real chance of taking Dzarumazh depends solely on how merciful the Storyteller is feeling. There ain't shit you can do about it.

Dodging is useless in this situation; if you Dodge, you forfeit your attack. Congratulations, you can successfully run away from him. Nobody was disputing that in the first place. What we were disputing is that you have any feasible chance of beating the SOB without a DM gimme.

You accuse me of ignoring that Dzarumazh's "innumerable" Allies are accessible only to Dorian Hargrave while yourself ignoring that Dorian Hargrave has access to Changeling allies as well as mortals. So, congrats; he can, if he wants, bury you under an entire army of other Changelings. Which is what I've been saying.

re: Defense — well, that only makes it even worse for you. Your max possible defense is what, 5? So, after subtracting his penalties and your defense, his die pools are... 16 and 17. How much armor can you layer on top of that? Enough to reduce any of those die pools into single-digit #'s, even, let alone to zero? Nope. Welcome to Obliterated, population: you.

As for the rest of your rules suggestions, they are in the territory of moving deck chairs on the Titanic as far as shifting the odds materially. Re: Firearms — 'everybody I asked agrees with me' is an argument right down there with 'the lurkers support me in e-mail' as far as persuasiveness goes.

"Reducing the entire conflict to pure combat with nothing but his true form assumes that your Storyteller is going to be a powergaming jackass."

No, its giving Dzarumazh credit for having the brains of a garden slug. Attacking him as Dorian Hargrave will result in him either shifting to his true form anyway, or leaving the fight. Why on Earth should he stick around and fight you to the death in his lesser, more vulnerable form? If Dzarumazh was your PC, would you?

But, most importantly, there is this:

Your complaint about Unholy Splendor in particular seems to boil down to "what if my Storyteller is a dick?"

No. My complaint about Unholy Spendor is this, and I will bold-text it so you do not miss it:

YOUR ONLY REALISTIC HOPE OF BEATING DZARUMAZH IS IF THE DM DELIBERATELY FORGETS TO HAVE DZARUMAZH USE HIS PRIMARY CROWD CONTROL POWER.

Unholy Splendor is on his character sheet. That its horribly broken and unfair is in fact the entire point of complaining about it; that is what Canon Sue means, after all. So saying that 'its only a problem if the DM is a dick!' is deliberately evading the point; it is not the DM who is the dick in this equation. He's just using the character as written. The dick was the dude who wrote the character up.

Which is the entire crux of the argument. Unless your DM deliberately shoots the fucker in the head with Plot Induced Stupidity, and has it just skip using its best powers, your odds of winning drop down to "pray for a miracle" territory. Any monster that is nigh-impossible to beat by any PC party without truly ridiculous Wyrd 7+ twinking and/or deliberate DM nerfing of the monster is, by definition, Canon Sue.

If you can't beat the thing without a DM gimme, then it ain't balanced.

So I am putting the entry back in.

Edit: "Wait until the discussion is resolved?" Um, define "resolved". Does that mean until we stop talking about it... or until you agree with it? Because the latter would be the same thing as giving you arbitrary veto power over everything I post. And, no. Just no.

Edit: Ahahaha, I just got edit banned. (snip flame bait)

If he's an unbeatable antagonist, wouldn't he be an Villain Sue?

Chuck:

If your GM puts in a frailty and then doesn't let you work to find a way to take advantage of it, he's being a dick. Dzarûmazh still possesses frailties and a GM who deliberately phases them out as a gameplay and story option is not working in his capacity as a Storyteller. If your Storyteller is introducing Dzarûmazh into the chronicle solely to fuck with you, find a new ST.

You're assuming that you have to attack every turn to make a difference in battle. One word: tactics. Without spending Glamour, Dzarûmazh can only make one attack per turn, so if he attacks you, you can Dodge and the other PCs can still attack with impunity.

Again, where are you getting "army" from? He can drum up five or six changelings on average. That's nowhere near "army."

Natural Defense caps at the higher of 5 and [Wyrd]. However, as with Initiative, there's a number of artificial means of boosting your Defense. Hedgespun gear, for starters. Also, the way the dicepools work, he'll be getting an average of one third as many successes as dice. Reducing his dicepool to single digits is overkill.

I didn't say "everybody I asked agrees with me." However, you've yet to provide any proof that bombs count as firearms, and Wikipedia, the military definition, and the legal definition of the term "firearm" all support my definition.

You seem to be confusing basic intelligence with omniscience. And let me turn the question around: Why on Earth should the PCs walk up to him in his stronger form with no preparation or plan?

Unholy Splendor takes his turn and only lasts for that round. If you have already acted on that turn, the boosted aura does nothing. It is entirely possible (and in some cases, ridiculously easy - see the Airtouched or the Levinquick) to boost your Initiative higher than Dzarûmazh's. So no, not impossible to thwart.

Your entire argument seems to be operating under the impression that because Dzarûmazh is largely unique and "impossible" (read: difficult) to beat, he must be a Sue. Which definition are you using? To use the D&D comparison again, if your DM pits a CR32 monster against a level 15 party and gives them absolutely no way to use its weaknesses against it, he's being a dick. What kind of party are you expecting to face Dzarly? Wyrd 3? Wyrd 5?

"Resolved" here being "until you convince me, I convince you, or we reach a compromise." Waiting until one of those criteria is reached saves you the trouble of having to keep making corrections to your own work.

Peteman: If he was actually unbeatable and hit all the other points for Sue status, then yes, he would be. As-is, he's a very difficult antagonist that is nevertheless capable of suffering defeat if the party bothers to prepare accordingly.

I'm sorry, guys. I know this is unrelated, and possibly unhelpful, but I have to.

SOMEBODY IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!!

http://xkcd.com/386/

Heheh.

Seriously, though, Chuck's overstated Dzarly's capabilities, grossly understated the things PCs have access to, and belittled such concepts as preparation and tactics. He's claimed all illustrations of his overstatements to be houserules (and therefore invalid for the purposes of any discussion of the game's "canon") and seems to be under the impression that figuring out what is and isn't accurate before putting a contended example up is equivalent to conspiracy against his right to express himself. He's throwing around a somewhat inflammatory term on insufficient evidence.

That's a smidgen more than just "wrong."

"What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"