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FoolsEditAccount
topic
01:12:19 PM Jun 29th 2011
Is The Legend of Zelda really an example? I suppose if Cave Story is considered a Metroidvania, it counts, but I really don't see why it isn't just Action Adventure. It has secrets and sidequests, yes, but so do most Action Adventure games. Perhaps it can be described as a "borderline Metroidvania" like Cave Story and Iji?

Blargh, I think the solution is to just clean up the article to get a more solid definition. We have way too much confusion/conflict over it right now.
SkarmoryThePG
03:29:51 PM Jul 26th 2011
Get Sword. Sword your way open to the Temple of Bomb. Bomb your way open to the Temple of Hookshot. Hookshot your way open to etc.

Metroidvania!
FoolsEditAccount
06:48:21 AM Jul 31st 2011
edited by FoolsEditAccount
You can say the same for any Action Adventure game. What a lot of people seem to be forgetting about this page is that you need to think about what separates this subgenre from the supergenre. And what does, really? Action Adventure games often have tool-based progression of some sort, so you can't really use that alone. Zelda has more of an emphasis on exploration perhaps, but it is still very linear despite that, which seems to be the only trait people will agree on that Action Adventure games tend to have and Metroidvanias do not.

Again, I think we should just add a "borderline example" tag, like Iji or Cave Story.
StansCoffins
02:19:09 PM Feb 8th 2012
I agree that Zelda has no place on here. The main reason is because it is very dungeon based. With a couple of exceptions, you have to tackle the dungeons in a specific order, and each dungeon is in itself self-contained with a single item and no reason to return after having beaten the boss. Progression in the overworld is also done as much by story events and character interaction as it is by getting new items.

More crucially, however, is this: if you accept Zelda into the definition, then pretty much any Action Adventure can be accepted, including the legion of Zelda imitators. Beyond Good and Evil. Okami. Sphinx and the Cursed Mummy. Even RP Gs like the Paper Mario series have the Zelda style of progression. This would be harmful, as the term Metroidvania is used to describe a specific type of game which is separate from the Zelda mould. There's a reason why the term "Zelda-clone" is used to describe Okami and the like whereas Metroidvanias are seen as rare-enough that most would be pushed to name any outside of the two titular series.
SkarmoryThePG
topic
06:18:23 AM Feb 10th 2011
So, what defines Metroidvania for you?

For me, it's the presence of all four factors:

  • Tool based progression: In a normal game, the Broken Bridge is fixed by killing the monster that's scaring off the workers. In a Metroidvania game, you steal the monster's Instant Bridge Builder, and use that to repair the Broken Bridge, as well as every other Broken Bridge of that type you encounter later on.
  • Area extension based gameplay: You start with a finite area, surrounded by various types of Broken Bridges. Somewhere in the area, is a tool. Acquiring that tool extends the area you can access, and lets you find a different tool. Repeat until A Winner Is You.
  • Area persistence: A majority of the once visited areas can be visited again. The incentive is the fact they contain Power Ups that can only be reached with tools gained in later areas.
  • Stageless construction: Rather than abstract 'stages', the areas of the game have to be reached on (proverbial) foot. They are physically on the map, not disconnected locales, but simply cannot be reached without the correct tool.

Each of those four must be present in some manner, though they do not need to be exclusive. The odd "kill four bosses so I open a portal for you" is fine. One or two areas (with, hopefully, no pickups) that cannot be returned to are fine. Having a few detached places only accessible by Portal Network is fine. As long as all four are present in a significant amount, the game is a Metroidvania to me.
Gilgameshkun
02:45:38 PM Feb 10th 2011
Agreed.
Gizensha
05:15:45 PM Mar 23rd 2011
I... Disagree with most of those.

I don't require Tool Based Progression - A lack of actual broken bridges, as opposed to terrain features you can't yet navigate across. By implication of not requiring tool based progression due to having no requirement for broken bridges, I don't agree that Area Extension Based Gameplay is a requirement - Those are simply common features to prevent the player going off and playing with the Final Boss before they've played the game.

Area persistence, exploration based gameplay, stageless construction - All of which come down to creating a solid sense of place throughout the game - Are the primary factors that define the genre to me, non-linearity and sequence-breaking are an emergent property of those, Area extension based gameplay is basically a tool to allow for the developer to design linear games within this inherrently non-linear framework (And not implementing that via Tool Based Progression is an anti-thesis to the metroidvania framework, but a lack of tool based progression itself doesn't indicate a game isn't a metroidvania...

...And, weirdly, I struggle to not consider Cave Story to be Metroidvania despite it having almost none of what I consider the core features of a Metroidvania. But then, I doubt any genre has hard and fast rules of what is and what isn't an example, the rules are just generalizations.
FoolsEditAccount
05:10:57 PM Jun 15th 2011
edited by FoolsEditAccount
I think that Cave Story could probably be defined as a "borderline Metroidvania" like Iji or Monster Tale. It has secrets, pickups, and area persistence, but is quite linear, something that is rather important since it's the main distinguishing feature from a normal Action Adventure game.
68.47.107.185
topic
12:09:59 AM Jan 28th 2011
Not to knock the image that's currently on this page, but perhaps the picture from here: http://projectakimba.blogspot.com/2010/09/metroidvania.html would work too?
24.71.241.122
07:10:57 PM Jan 30th 2011
But that doesn't really help describe the trope.
ShivaIndis
topic
02:11:41 AM Oct 21st 2010
I suggest renaming this trope on the following grounds:

Too opaque - "Metroidvania" is meaningless to people who have never heard the term before before. Too limiting - ones of the reasons for the genre's noted vagueness is that the terms of inclusion are based on similarity to Metroid/Castlevania. Besides these, there is the term itself, "tacky and generally pretty much useless" neologism that it is. It's even vaguely derogatory, though I think we've all just gotten used to that.

My suggestion: Exploration Platformer.
TwinBird
08:59:22 PM Oct 25th 2010
Yeah, if nothing else, I'm kind of bothered by the fact that half the title is from a game series with this as its most recognizable trait, and the other half is from a series that became this after eleven years of linear platforming, at a point when 2D games had already become a niche market, and didn't really stick with it afterward.
GlennMagusHarvey
12:38:29 PM Nov 16th 2010
edited by GlennMagusHarvey
Well the problem is that this is basically the most common term for this at this point.

Also, the games need not be platformers. The Zelda games are basically metroidvanias but with the RPG-typical top-down perspective.

Once upon a time, I tried to start this article on Wikipedia. I chose the name "non-linear exploration game". It was of course shot down there because it was "original research", which is a big no-no on The Other Wiki. But you decide whether that name is a better idea.
SkarmoryThePG
06:03:12 AM Feb 10th 2011
Against. The term is ingrained in gaming vernacular, apt, and neat.
Gilgameshkun
06:16:18 AM Feb 10th 2011
"Metroidvania" is easier to remember.
Gizensha
04:55:36 PM Mar 23rd 2011
Against - Metroidvania is the a commonly used, generic, term for the genre. Just because the genre is defined by similarity to Metroid and Castlevania isn't a reason to try and rename the trope, anymore than the (at least as vaguely defined) Roguelike genre should be renamed Tactical Dungeon Exploration Simulation.
PowerRider
11:33:05 PM Jul 18th 2011
Agreed with the change. "Explorable platformer" sounds better. "Metroidvania" is a stupid term and Jeremy Pariah should be ashamed for coining such a stupid genre label (if he really did so).
gfrequency
03:24:45 AM Apr 10th 2014
"Exploration platformer" would've been great — if people hadn't got "Metroidvania" into their heads first, stupid-sounding term as it is. Maybe we should call third-person cover-based shooters "Unchargears" while we're at it. Hey, did you hear about the awesome new Unchargears coming out next month?
Larkmarn
06:14:19 AM Apr 10th 2014
It's not getting changed.
Metroidvaniac
topic
08:19:37 PM Oct 6th 2010
It seems to me that a lot of people aren't paying attention to the core tenants of Metroidvania. Do titles like Kid Icarus and Sonic Adventure really have the ability progression that's central to this style of game? A lot of people seem to be thinking Metroidvania just means "side-scrolling open world," when it's a lot more than that.

Basically, I'm just wondering if this page could use some cleanup. People who have played the games in question need to figure out just how Metroidvania-like a game is, and whether or not it should stay. Off the top of my head, Mega Man Zero and Pitfall II don't really fit, but I'm not as familiar with a lot of the other dubious examples, and I don't want to start cutting off sections of the page wholesale without discussing this first.
GlennMagusHarvey
07:08:43 PM Oct 7th 2010
As the article notes, the definition of this style is rather notoriously vague, with some requirements ranging from very few (open-ended or revisitable play world opened in chunks) to very many (2D open-ended well-connected platformer with powerups that let you explore more of the map and with opportunities for sequence breaking).
Metroidvaniac
10:21:48 AM Oct 8th 2010
edited by Metroidvaniac
That subjectivity is exactly what I'm trying to address. I don't want to force my views on anyone, though. How about this: we divide the page into multiple categories, depending on how many of the bullet points they follow. Off the top of my head, we could do direct clones of Castlevania or Metroid (Shadow Complex, Arkham Asylum), games that are mostly Metroidvanias but are split into multiple stages (Tails Adventure, Demon's Crest), linear games that give you abilities you can use to get items earlier in the game (The Legendary Starfy, Brave and the Bold), and games with a non-linear, open world, but no ability gain (I Wanna Be the Guy, Mega Man Zero). That's all I can think of right now, but we could certainly do more.

I only bring this up because a lot of people, myself included, use this list as, well, a list of games to look into. It's a great way to find gems like Shantae, but when people start lumping Spider-Man: Web of Shadows and Spider-Man GBC together (one lets you gain abilities to help you explore, the other just has a big, open city), it can get confusing. It just seems that a list called "Metroidvania" should distinguish between stuff that resembles Metroid and Castlevania, and stuff that doesn't.
GlennMagusHarvey
10:36:26 PM Oct 10th 2010
Feel free to go ahead and start categorizing them. Would be nice if you could make a gigantic table out of all these, but I'm not sure the Wiki software makes that easy.
Metroidvaniac
11:20:39 AM Oct 11th 2010
What kind of table?
GlennMagusHarvey
11:45:32 AM Oct 15th 2010
I meant a table where each column is one possible Metroidvania characteristic (e.g. "interconnected level design", "2D", "platforming", "use powerups to access new areas", "continuous map", etc.), and each line is a game, with checks in the right columns.
FoolsEditAccount
05:06:40 PM Jun 15th 2011
...Has this idea been dropped? Sorry for necroposting, but it sounds like a very good idea and I would highly appreciate it. "Metroidvania" seems like such a broad term that people use it for games that I don't really consider Metroidvanias (for me, it doesn't make sense to call it a Metroidvania if it's linear — in that case, it's just an Action Adventure).
Metroidvaniac
04:50:30 PM Mar 5th 2012
I still like the idea, but to be perfectly honest, it's beyond my scope, and I imagine a lot of people feel the same way. There's a lot of games on this page now, and trying to determine which criteria each and every one of them does and doesn't fit would be a monumental undertaking. Just doing the ones we do know would result in a lot of games being left out, not to mention the subjectivity in the ones we do know (Cave Story being a big one; from what I've heard, it only has one exploration-based power-up). It could still happen, but it'd be a big effort, probably one with multiple people working together.
troacctid
07:05:32 PM Mar 5th 2012
Cave Story is unambiguously Metroidvania. I don't think there's any question about that one.
Fool
topic
05:06:33 AM Jun 22nd 2010
Should we make this page into an actual index? I'd say it's a viable genre.
GlennMagusHarvey
04:15:09 PM Jul 30th 2010
I say yes.
back to Main/Metroidvania

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