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MithrandirOlorin
topic
03:18:05 AM May 31st 2012
Which episodes of La Blue Girl feature Miko raping cute girls?
DCC
topic
07:26:42 AM May 25th 2012
Per the first paragraph: the idea that only men can rape might just have some negative impact on men too. It's not just the idea that women are too weak to harm—it's also the idea that all brutes who *want* to harm are men. Sometimes even that all men are brutes.

Kairu
topic
07:43:28 AM May 9th 2012
Did we seriously change all the "is okay when" to "double standard"? Really? REALLY?
lu127
moderator
07:49:21 AM May 9th 2012
Yes, really.

Anything else?
Punitor
topic
10:40:35 PM May 15th 2011
Is anyone else weirded out by the account of the Vagina Monologues example? Every other rape trope is rightly categorized as a heinous thing, yet the V-monologue example is merely "highly contraversial"
MrDeath
07:59:04 AM May 16th 2011
That example in general falls more in the realm of Its Not Rape If You Enjoyed It than here. This trope is more about the reactions of people beside the perpetrator and victim.
JusticeReaper
topic
12:29:20 PM Dec 16th 2010
I have to ask: Is the film She Stole My Voice really valid as an example? I watched it after seeing a promo video for it on YouTube, but after watching it a couple of times, I eventually started feeling like it was more of a thinly-disguised porn movie than an actual documentary. My feeling that way was not helped by the fact that (1) The persons interviewed on-camera weren't identified, not even the woman from the trauma center (supposedly), nor were research sources cited; and (2) the dramatic reenact-ions of the events that led up to the actual sex in each scene seemed much too far-fetched (example: In the first scene, one of the sisters is in the shower, the other sister is watching her for a moment, then Sister #2 swipes Sister #1's panties from the clothes pile on the floor and starts licking them, moments before Sister #1 catches her, drags her to the bedroom and supposedly rapes her). Am I the only one who feels that way?
Mondkuh
topic
06:08:31 PM Sep 15th 2010
No Real Life examples. Ok, I can accept that. But can we (maybe under a different heading, like “legal,” so people don't add other real life examples) add the fact that many jurisdictions didn't even prosecute lesbian rape as rape since the law wasn't written in that sense (usually requiring penetration, sometimes explicitly by a penis)?
128.186.159.45
topic
01:09:55 PM Aug 30th 2010
Whomever it is that keeps erasing the entries for Kannazuki no Miko and Strawberry Panic! please stop first of their douse not have to be a double standard just that the girl is raped by another woman and she is either not punished or vilified, is Easily Forgiven, or the victome shows no ill or lasting effects from the rape

Secondly, the entrees do show a Double Standard; as a matter of fact they could be the Most Triumphant Example of the double standard if you would read them. One involves a girl that was brutally raped by another girl in a series where a man even threatening rape is considered crossing the Moral Event Horizon and she ends up with the female rapist. The other has a sexual predator that reputedly traps and attacks girls that show no interest in hr and make that perfectly clear, at the end she escapes any punishment for her actions, if she was a man people would be furious about it.

CBanana
04:09:08 PM Aug 30th 2010
edited by CBanana
Well... The very first line of the trope description talks about why this trope is a Double Standard trope. It's talked about again in the fourth paragraph. In the sixth paragraph it specifically says Double Standard.

Kannazuki no Miko - Chikane's rape of Himeko is not portrayed as a good thing. Chikane's mindset is that she's trying to provoke Himeko into killing Chikane so that Chikane will be the one sacrificed instead of Himeko. This mindset means the rape is NOT supposed to be a forgiven action. Also see this related discussion.

Strawberry Panic! - You obviously have not read any trashy romance novels or even various shojo/josei manga that have used very aggressive male romantic interests. Strawberry Panic! draws from these trashy series and compared to these series, Shizuma is actually BETTER behaved.

Gokujou Drops - The author does have a Rape Is Love fetish but that shows up in her heterosexual works as well as yuri works.

P.S. When {Edit Warring, don't re-add the natter.
128.186.40.164
01:22:23 PM Sep 9th 2010
edited by 128.186.40.164
This troop is not exactly about a double standard though, that might be one of the reasons why this trope is in play but not the only one.

Kannazuki no Miko -While Chikano did have her reasons for raping Himeko, and Himeko did originally seemed extremely hurt and maybe even traumatized by her actions. It douse not negate the fact that Chikano was forgiven for the rape and made to seem like a love martyr that got the girl in the end, instead of the rapist she was. You would have a much better argument if they did not end up together at the end

Strawberry Panic! – you are right I have not read any trashy romance novels or even various shojo/josei manga that have used very aggressive male romantic interests, however if they act like Shizuma I imagine they are not complete Karma Houdini that have nothing worse happen to them at the end then being rejected by the girl they are constantly trying to rape, and if they are I am glad I do not read them because Shizuma actions were some of the most disturbing in the series.

Gokujou Drops - this article is not about other work she has done that do not involve yuri rape but the ones that do which follow this trope.

CBanana
01:45:35 PM Sep 9th 2010
The trope does strongly talk about the double standard. In fact it's in the trope title itself as the trope title is "Rape is Okay When Its Female On Female" not "Rape Is Okay" or even "Rape Is Okay Lesbian Version".

Kannazuki no Miko - You didn't address the fact that rape in this series is considered a horrible act even if it is an eventually forgiven one.

Strawberry Panic! - Actually Karma Houdini does happen in those series. As I said Shizuma is BETTER behaved than those male leads.

Gokujou Drops - The author simply doesn't have a Double Standard regarding rape which proves that the work itself is not using a Double Standard justification for its actions. If you find a particular scene that proves a Double Standard within the work in question, that's a different matter. Something like a quote that say "It's a good thing you're a girl, otherwise you wouldn't get away with this kind of act".
MithrandirOlorin
03:41:58 AM May 24th 2012
edited by MithrandirOlorin
Even thought I haven't seen any of these yet, form these comments I'll add my 2 cents

Kannazuki no Miko- treats it as a necessary evil, or Bad deed for right reason. Similar cases certainly could occur with Man on Woman Rape and be treated the same way. It's a deliberate grey area. The mere fact that those Tropes apply itself demonstrates it to be in any normal circumstances very bad.

Strawberry Panic!- Sounds hard to tell without any in it's universe Male on Female rape to compare to. Every time I see Strawberry Panic! menitoned in relation to Rape tropes it's a different victim and attacker. But this must be mostly the Anime and manga versions, I've finished he first book of the Light Novels and it's all been pretty consensual there so far.

Gokujou Drops- The Author isn't treating it any differently, but trope can still apply without the Author intending it. Without knowledge of the Author's other works it definitely seems no different then any other time Female on Female rape is trivialized.
Alrune
topic
01:11:36 AM Jul 25th 2010
I suggest we merge this page with Rape Is Okay When It Is Female On Male and make it a whole trope about how rape is always okay if the perpetrator is female. What do you think?
99.229.142.138
03:49:51 PM Jul 27th 2010
That sounds quite reasonable to me.
MithrandirOlorin
03:43:41 AM May 24th 2012
No cause Rape being more ok if the Victim is male is equally a factor there. And Femaleon Female examples have the addition "Lesbian Sexisn'trealSex" matter.
macroscopic
topic
08:24:02 PM Jul 2nd 2010
edited by macroscopic

Cutlist

Poorly written, describes a stigma I doubt actually exists. (Women can't rape women is a stigma, this is bullshit.) The few examples it has are already covered by existing tropes.
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
08:31:54 PM Jul 2nd 2010
Someone with the stomach for it should rewrite this. There seems to be enough there...
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
08:34:40 PM Jul 2nd 2010
<counts> Definitely more than three examples.

awriterscorned
09:16:06 PM Jul 2nd 2010
edited by awriterscorned
The stigma actually DOES exist and is not summarized in other tropes. If "Rape is Okay If It's Female On Male" is accepted, why isn't this? There were a lot of examples, and it's a common trope of yuri anime at least that the female rapist is not taken seriously but males who try to rape the protagonist ARE. That does make it different from "It's Not Rape If You Enjoyed It" and "Rape Is Love" particularly since many examples of "Rape Is Okay If It's Female On Male" cross over into those categories as well.
awriterscorned
09:17:30 PM Jul 2nd 2010
edited by awriterscorned
Deleted.
75.73.120.244
09:41:12 PM Jul 2nd 2010
Perhaps "women can't rape women" is a stigma, but it is equally true, as awriterscorned implies, that women being unable to rape men is also a stigma. And as she says, Rape is Okay If It's Female On Male is accepted, and similarly, the trope in question should be as well. In my personal experience it is quite sickening how frequently this concept is "played for laughs," and the stigma is very, very real.

Calling this "bullshit" is rather rude, btw.

As for other tropes covering it, well that certainly wouldn't be a new thing. Many tropes have intersecting examples, many examples can be described by multiple tropes. There is nothing wrong with dedicating a specific trope to this. Following the example of my reasoning above, if "Rape Is Love" and "Its Not Rape If You Enjoy It" can cover these examples, they can probably also cover most examples of "Rape is Okay If It's Female on Male" (because she just loves him and/or of course he enjoys it, he's a man) and that topic should, accordingly, also be taken down.

But I don't think that it should be. And I think this is a specific concept seen often enough in various locations to merit its own approach. While many times it goes hand-in-hand with Rape Is Love and It's Not Rape if You Enjoy It, it certainly doesn't have to - there are women raped by women who do not fall in love and do not enjoy it, in many media examples.

Tenchi Muyo comes to mind, and probably most harem comedies. Though I can't recall specific examples right now, I'm almost certain you can find women sexually assaulting each other and playing it for laughs in those manga/shows. Probably never "outright rape" but then again, I wouldn't put it past some authors.

Give it time and I think this trope has many examples to catalog. It's new; give it a chance to grow.

As for the writing: I don't see anything wrong with it. It's factual and pertinent.

-Rius
macroscopic
11:40:21 PM Jul 2nd 2010
The reason Rape Is Okay When Its Female On Male is a valid page is because the trope really does show up in fiction, this doesn't. Show me examples of this trope where the rape is deemed okay because they were women and not because Rape Is Love, they enjoyed it, or because there was no threat to begin with. As it is the only clear examples don't belong.

The writing looks better since Anonymous McCartney Fan hit it.
Hylarn
12:00:00 AM Jul 3rd 2010
Actual rape is rather rare, but I could give you a few dozen examples of molestation that would fit.
awriterscorned
12:41:50 AM Jul 3rd 2010
edited by awriterscorned
Rape Is Love or It's Not Rape If You Enjoy It are often the excuses used to dismiss lesbian rapists in stories, but I don't think their presence means that the rape was NOT excused based on gender. In Kannazuki No Miko we aren't completely dealing with either trope. Himeko did not enjoy it. She's distressed that it happened but she still wants to give Chikane the benefit of the doubt because she is certain that Chikane had good intentions. When a man attempts to rape her, he is seen as a complete monster. She is more willing to give Chikane the benefit of the doubt and in the end when Chikane pursues a relationship with Himeko, Himeko's acceptance is a bit strange. She pretty much says "well if that's what you want then go for it." The rape itself isn't love but her assumed good intentions do tend to come from her femininity.

In Strawberry Panic, Nagisa doesn't love Shizuma or enjoy the assaults in the beginning but no one takes Shizuma's assaults on her seriously. Eventually her mixed feelings lead to acceptance of the advances which by the way does happen in abusive situations sometimes.

In Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit, Mrs. Jewsberry commits an act that is arguably rape and the character hates it and does not love Mrs. Jewsberry. But she does not analyze this event, become fearful of women, or get angry at Mrs. Jewsberry whereas she is pretty consistently angry at all men for being sexually selfish pigs.

In Blood Sisters, the female on female rape is seen as hot. It's not clear what the author or narrators think of male on female rape but it's still an unfortunate implication as the protagonist of one story really blossoms as a woman and becomes a stronger character after being raped.

In Kushiel's Legacy it is possible that we are looking at Rape is Love however it is questionable that Phedre can accuse the woman she loves of high treason despite loving her and can recognize that the sexual act was not necessarily acceptable but cannot call it rape. It is not like most rape is love stories in that they do not end up together and Phedre does not choose this love in the long run. It is arguable whether or not it fits the typical model of Rape is Love, in fact, I think it is listed as a subversion on the Rape Is Love page (and not by me). Actually her "curse" which causes her to enjoy all pain (including rape) is her strength. They assume she has submitted fully to them and that they have power over her, but in her mind and at her core she is not theirs and still manages to take her rapists down.

In "She Stole My Voice" there are men who actually say they'd rather their girlfriends were raped by women because it wouldn't insult their masculine egos. And those are based on real life examples. Also the links to real life suggest that the stigma does exist in real life which means it will show up in media.

Also see this quotation from the article: "This trope goes hand-in-hand with Rape Is Love and Its Not Rape If You Enjoyed It but is not entirely the same. It is a common trope in yuri anime particularly. Rape between females tends to be downplayed regardless of whether or not the victim "liked" it."

Rape Is Okay When It Is Female On Female is frequently an unfortunate implication of yuri.

I can see that you don't agree that this trope belongs, however, calling my entire page "bullshit" is rather rude.
CBanana
11:39:10 PM Jul 26th 2010
Hmmm... I've read/watched 95% of the anime/manga on the Girls Love page and I can't think of a single work where f/f rape is forgiven but m/f rape is strongly chastised. This trope as it stands seems a lot like Rape Is Love but for lesbian relationships.

Also I have to question whether is actually prevalent in yuri series. We have 58 anime/manga series (assuming I counted right) listed on Girls Love. This trope (ie. the Rape Is Love trope) can describe at most 4 of them which at about 7% isn't exactly common.
CBanana
03:47:00 PM Jul 27th 2010
edited by CBanana
At any rate, I'm going to remove the following series in three days:

  • Kannazuki no Miko: This is actually justified in the plot as Chikane wanting Himeko to hate her enough that Himeko is willing to kill her. The plot's certainly edgy but there's no real evidence that Chikane is treated differently because she's female.

  • Strawberry Panic!: This series takes a lot of its themes from trashy dime store romance novels. In that context, Shizuma's behaviour is in line with the male leads of that genre (in fact, she's a bit better behaved).

  • Gokujou Drops: This is a heavy Author Appeal story. Mikuni Hadzime, the author has also done heterosexual and Boys Love stories. While I haven't been able to track any of those mangas down, I'm willing to bet a lot of money most of them very similar themes. There's also no m/f harassment/rape in the story to contrast it so there's no evidence of a double standard.

I'm also going to remove the note that it's common in yuri as the contrast between how f/f harassment/rape and m/f harassment/rape is dealt with actually is significantly more common in ecchi series that aren't part of the yuri genre. Even if this trope is just trying to duplicate the Rape Is Love trope but for lesbian relationships, it is not common to the yuri genre as evidenced in my previous post.

One suggestion is that I think the trope needs to be renamed as most of the cases I can think of from memory (Akikan!, El-Hazard) deal specifically with sexual harassment not rape.
MithrandirOlorin
03:45:11 AM Feb 22nd 2013
I searched for "Blood Sisters" mentioned by awriterscorned and can't find anything.
back to Main/DoubleStandardRapeFemaleOnFemale

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