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notbobby1255
topic
02:35:26 PM Nov 25th 2013
Not related to the characters per say, but what happened to the trope main English page?
Telcontar
moderator
02:03:19 AM Nov 26th 2013
I don't understand — can you rephrase the question?
notbobby1255
01:12:16 AM Dec 1st 2013
For some reason, the main page ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrderOfTheStick ) is gone, it says We don't have an article named The Order of the Stick. We do, however have: De: The Order of the Stick

Clicking on takes me (to what I think) is the GERMAN version of the page http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/De/TheOrderOfTheStick?from=De.OrderOfTheStick

The original main page also has a lock on it.
MrDeath
08:03:31 AM Dec 2nd 2013
DoktorvonEurotrash
topic
10:29:12 AM Jan 10th 2011
Do we know that Crystal has been Killed Off for Real? I don't see any reason that she definitely can't be rezzed.
SomeNewGuy
11:03:08 AM Jan 10th 2011
Well, considering that she's so stupid mentally retarded that she's little more than a liability, I kinda think Bozzok would consider using up precious resources (seriously, diamonds seem to be the rarest mineral ever in this setting) a waste of time and, most importantly to him, money.
DeathCloud
topic
10:57:56 AM Dec 8th 2010
We need to change name of Empire of Blood cathegory to some thing better fitting what's going on on this Continent. Maybe to avoid spoilers we should name it Western Continent Nations or something similar. That way we can include Empires of Terars and Sweat and rest of Tarquin Party.
hobbitguy1420
12:14:21 PM Dec 8th 2010
I'd say "The Western Continent" would be as good a name as any.
tricksterson
10:50:57 AM Dec 11th 2010
How about Tarquin's Crew?
Jordan
10:55:49 AM Dec 11th 2010
^^ That's a good choice

Although ^ gets points for humor.

Incidentally, I was thinking that although mostly nameless so far, that Tarquin's adventuring party should be added to Five-Bad Band:

DeathCloud
06:32:10 AM Jan 3rd 2011
"Tarquin Crew" is to spoileric

"Western Continent" is better choice.
Fighteer
moderator
topic
09:28:44 AM Nov 8th 2010
What in the heck is up with the ongoing change to/from {{ }} bracketed titles to capitalize trope titles properly. It's making me dizzy. Pick a damn style and stick to it!
MrDeath
09:35:38 AM Nov 8th 2010
Some people just seem to be really pedantic about that sort of thing. I'm personally in favor of just straight wikiwording everything, since it's tidier.
Fighteer
moderator
topic
07:37:23 AM Sep 22nd 2010
<Mod Voice> Alright, folks, further edit wars over alignment on this page will be bannable offenses. Last warning.
StFan
topic
08:47:38 AM Aug 30th 2010
About the recent little debate over Belkar's Villain Protagonist nature, indeed there seem to have been a bit of misunderstanding about this trope.

Rereading the description, Belkar being always in the hero team, even as the Token Evil Teammate, disqualify him.

It could be said that Xykon and Redcloak are Villain Protagonists within Start of Darkness. But Belkar hasn't yet switched to Team Evil, so Fighteer was right to remove this line.
KSonik
09:02:06 AM Aug 30th 2010
edited by KSonik
Um yes yes he is a villain, there is nothing morally ambiguous about him. Yes he is on the side of the good guys buy only so that he can kill loads of people without paying the consequences. He would harm an innocent ( Elan, Rodrigues, that gnome, that Azurite soldier). Heck he's even a card carrying villain. The only reason he is not against Roy's team is not because he hates doing evil but because it was in his best interest not to. Face it he is a Heel.
Fighteer
moderator
11:04:05 AM Aug 30th 2010
edited by Fighteer
Wrong, KSonic. He is on the heroes' team and has been from Comic 1; that makes him a hero.

Edit: Get over your personal crusade. The rest of the tropers do not agree with you. In the context of tropology, that makes you wrong.
KSonik
11:11:06 AM Aug 30th 2010
A villain can be on the good guy's side if it is in his best interest and doesn't have to be doing evil just because. Belkar is not a hero at all. He doesn't care about doing the right thing.
Fighteer
moderator
11:12:07 AM Aug 30th 2010
edited by Fighteer
Neither does the Heroic Sociopath. From the article:

The Heroic Sociopath is a gleefully wicked character who takes on the role of The Hero and works towards a positive goal while being as evil as possible along the way. He or she may be compelled to do good by blackmail, supernatural compulsion, money, their own amusement, or simply because they recognise that co-operating with the other good characters in their story is ultimately to their own benefit.

Belkar is the page image for crying out loud!
KSonik
11:55:53 AM Aug 30th 2010
It also mentions that it is a form of anti hero that is a sociopath. Belkar is not that at all. I have no idea why it is called Heroic Sociopath though. Heck the laconic wiki even describes that trope "He's our monster."

Okay what I'm saying is that to call him an anti hero is to say that he skirts the line between good and evil, but he is clearly on the dark side
Fighteer
moderator
11:58:12 AM Aug 30th 2010
Not that, either. Anti-Hero is a large trope that encompasses everything from the Jerk Ass to the Villain Protagonist. See Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes.
MrDeath
12:01:18 PM Aug 30th 2010
I'm failing to see the issue here. Belkar fits the bit Fighteer quoted from Heroic Sociopath pretty much exactly.

Villain Protagonist, however, seems to refer to the main character (Belkar is not the primary protagonist), who is working toward villainous goals; Xykon and Redcloak in Start Of Darkness would qualify. Belkar has no "goals" of his own beyond "stab someone in the near future and try not to get caught." As part of Roy's team, ostensibly his goal is to prevent the end of the world. Which is a heroic goal. That he acts evil in pursuit of a good goal makes him a Heroic Sociopath.

The distinction is clear. Just because you hate Belkar doesn't mean he's a Villain of the story.
KSonik
12:39:46 PM Aug 30th 2010
edited by KSonik
so "stab someone in the near future and hope not to get caught" isn't a villainous goal? for sure his goal really isn't what you said it is.

So wait a Villain Protagonist isn't a protagonist that happens to be unambiguously evil person?

Wait, you think I hate Belkar Bitterleaf just because I thought he was a villain?
MrDeath
12:43:17 PM Aug 30th 2010
It's a "goal" inasmuch as "Hm, I think I'll have a sandwich for lunch today" is a goal. Belkar doesn't have any villainous plans, and his objective, if he has one, is the fairly heroic "prevent Xykon from taking over the world," even if he's only doing so because Roy ordered him to.

It's about what they're doing, not how they're doing it. It's about goals and objectives. If we were following Belkar in a solo story, where he was trying to murder an innocent person and the story was from his point of view? Yes, that would make him a Villain Protagonist in that story. It's all about the context of the larger story, not about his individual actions.
KSonik
12:52:06 PM Aug 30th 2010
Oh I get it. Evil=/= villain. Thanks :)
MrDeath
01:07:14 PM Aug 30th 2010
On the thinking you hate Belkar thing, I've seen edits on here a lot of the time that amount to, "I hate this character, so I'm going to shoehorn any negative trope I can into his/her description,"—and I've seen people edit this page in particular to do that to Belkar specifically—so at first I thought that's what happened here.

As it seems not to be the case, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
cclospina
03:33:42 PM Aug 30th 2010
edited by cclospina
is difficult to define, although belkar is evil, is the side of good.

Heroic Sociopath = Anti-Hero + Sociopath.

Is belkar A Anti-Hero ? In a way, the only reason that can be considered an antihero Belkar, this is because the side of good.

Filby
topic
03:42:59 PM Aug 1st 2010
Hey, I'm the one who added the formatting with race, class, and Character Alignment (someone else added the gender line). It wasn't a whole lot of work, just the result of an afternoon's boredom.

The alignments for characters who aren't don't have one canonically were just guesswork. I apologize for any edit wars they've caused or will cause. If anyone just wants to nuke the ones that are in question, I'm okay with that.
KSonik
06:17:58 AM Aug 2nd 2010
What edit war? The only one that seems to cause an argument is Julio and that wasn't an edit war, more like an minor edit debate. I personally think we should keep the alignmnents as unlike most shows there is a legitimate reason - the webcomic in question actually use Dn D alignment
Fighteer
moderator
07:38:53 AM Aug 2nd 2010
Except we don't know the alignments of several characters, and as you yourself have just proven, it's fuel for Edit Wars even or perhaps especially in a D&D context.
KSonik
06:35:34 AM Aug 3rd 2010
edited by KSonik
Meh you're right. I really didn't wish to cause an Edit War especially with Julio. On second thoughts, Chaotic Neutral may probably fit Julio better or most likely he doesn't have an alignment.
KSonik
topic
08:42:33 AM Aug 1st 2010
Okay how can Julio be considered good i mean he robbed women off their jewellery
Fighteer
moderator
08:45:41 AM Aug 1st 2010
edited by Fighteer
See: Robin Hood. However, it's a bad idea to discuss Character Alignment for people that don't canonically have them, for the exact reason that it tends to start Edit Wars.

Edit: Actually, I'm going to hold off on cutting them. Seems like someone's gone to a lot of trouble to format the page consistently. Just stop edit warring over it, or I will.
KSonik
06:08:22 AM Aug 2nd 2010
edited by KSonik
But he robbed innocent rich women for selfish reasons using evil means to achieve a selfish end. That is the difference between Julio and Robin Hood. What, is stealing from the rich a good act now? :/
Jordan
topic
11:45:34 AM Jul 16th 2010
Looking at the changes, I mostly agree, but unless it's stated explicitly somewhere, I'm hesitant to see the bounty hunter duo as Lawful Evil. Maybe it's just me, but I think of bounty hunters as a rather roguish, neutral bunch- they don't care about right and wrong, they just want to get paid. So, I'd guess they are more like True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, or Neutral Evil.
Fighteer
moderator
11:57:43 AM Jul 16th 2010
The "clues" to their alignment are all mainly fandom interpretation, so I'd hold off on assigning any alignment, personally.
LentilSandEater
06:27:33 PM Mar 24th 2012
I'm Sure I read on the forum's collection of the author's posts that the bounty hunters were meant to be something-neutral. Can't find the post at the moment though.
Shhalahr
topic
09:39:30 PM Apr 13th 2010
Therkla: Listed here as Lawful Neutral, but also listed on the pages for True Neutral and Chaotic Neutral… I think we need to come to a better consensus here.
Fighteer
moderator
06:27:06 AM Apr 14th 2010
She's never had a canonical alignment in the story, so it's a case of people WMG'ing based on their own personal beliefs about the alignment system. I say cut all the entries.
Arha
06:49:45 PM Aug 17th 2010
If she's Neutral, why was she hiding from a Detect Evil?
Mouser
07:16:26 PM Aug 17th 2010
There's no indication that the characters automatically know their own alignments (most of them do, but those are the obvious cases). She's clearly not capital-G Good, so she'd probably want to be on the safe side.

But yeah - unless the Giant has spelled it out, let's not assign Therkla an alignment. She's too ambiguous.
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