So. Gaz as a tsundere. If there's a discussion to be had about this we should definitely have it here rather than editing the page back and forth?
Me, I don't see it. I don't think having a hidden good side gives you the necessary "deredere" quality. She's all tsun.
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I've been getting private messages from Goth Gir Xenon over this and I am about at my wit's end trying to stop her from Edit Warring over the page. This was the last message I sent her.
What? Look, it's a community-run site. I am not the empress of the Invader Zim page just because I edit it a lot, I just tend to source what I can so that I can show that to other people if they're skeptical.
I have the DV Ds and the commentary, I've read every interview of Vasquez I can find printed, and I've tried to keep up with his blog when it does Zim-related material. But I've never been to Invader Con so I have no idea what was said or by who. The extremely vague way you keep referring to it is rather frustrating. All you've said, over and over, is that some people, and you're not forthcoming with names, have said that she has a "hidden good side". Which fits fine under Hidden Depths, which I put in specifically because of your constant edit warring.
She doesn't go out of her way to bother Dib but she sure does show a lack of empathy. Like say wanting to watch her brother's organs be turned inside out just because it sounds neat, and only changing her mind because it might interfere with her ability to eat pizza.
I'm tired of having this discussion with you! You don't offer up new information, you just keep spinning the extremely vague and unverifiable material you've offered before. Which is piled on top of your own personal spin on the matter, "oh Gaz is not so bad, she only seems mean because no one is nice to her". I thought she was mean for knocking some poor kid off their scooter and stealing it to go on her mission of "revenge" against Iggins, or for trying to blow up the planet with a can of beans because she was bored, or wrecking Dib's chances at seeing his father because she was annoyed at him for taking the last piece of pizza. She never ever SHOWS a tsundere side, it doesn't matter if you hypothesize that it exists. She is never deredere with anyone that we've seen. If that was in an episode, fine, stick it in. As it is you're just going on and on about what somebody somewhere said and demanding it pre-empt the actual canon of the show. PLUS you're Edit Warring and you've explicitly ignored twice now my request that you take it to the board. I am completely out of patience here, I don't know why you wouldn't rather deal with the community at large than me. Somebody else might actually agree with you if you just made this argument public.
I am so tired of having to edit the page back and forth. Maybe she isn't the Annoying Younger Sibling but I still don't see how speculation + the opinion of the voice actress makes her a tsundere. That actually requires you to act deredere to somebody and she never does, even towards her father who she actually seems to have some respect for.
I'm not sure, but dib never proved to be cruel enough to qualify as type IV and gaz never showed heroic enough to qualify as a type IV.
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The Sliding Scale of Antiheroes is proving to be as uselessly subjective as Character Alignment as time wears on, isn't it. *sigh*
I had him between Type III and IV because III isn't nice, but Dib's intentions towards Zim went past "stopping him for the good of the planet" and into "torturing him since he deserves it, and it will further Dib's personal ambitions". Going as far as it would take to stop Zim would be Type III. Going beyond that point is into Type IV. Pay Evil unto Evil is hallmark IV.
Whether anything Dib's ever actually done paints him as that far down the scale is another question, which makes it more ambiguous. Doodling pictures of vivisecting Zim might be disturbing, but it's hardly in the same league as actually doing it — a vicious fantasy is still a fantasy. Pretending to shake hands in order to force Zim into the same boat as he is arguably falls under Combat Pragmatism. Letting the Nightmare creatures grab Zim to save his own skin.... ehh. IIIish, IVish. Between the two seems most likely.
Gaz, now, I agree with you, she's never been heroic in intention the way Type IV requires. It's always about her. She once tried to wipe out all life on Earth. She's only heroic if she goes up against people worse than she is. She's Type V all the way.
Reality check:
- Character Development/ Character Derailment: taking into account that the final was originally planned to destroy the irken, would have become a type IV in the best and a Villain in the worst.
A hazily planned and poorly documented finale where Dib defeats the Irkens should absolutely not be taken as proof-friggin-positive Dib was going to commit genocide. I don't know why some people are wedded to this idea except that they're convinced the show is all about Dib and Zim being exactly as evil even when that interpretation doesn't really hold up under close scrutiny.
I was gonna say, it's a stretch but maybe not too out-of-sync with him in the earliest episodes...
Then I re-read the article. Yeah, no. The Heroic Sociopath isn't an antihero type, he's pretty much an out-and-out Card-Carrying Villain who happens to be working his carnage more or less on the side of "good". Dib's vices push him more towards Knight Templarism, the whole point there being they don't think of themselves as bad guys. And the idea that he's a built-in Karma Houdini is laughable, given that he's the series' biggest Butt-Monkey.
Zapped.
Edited by Tyoria
So I took out this entry:
...cause I looked up the source. It's from Pixelatl México 2019, the second part of the video(here
). He does literally say that they are dead, but check out the context 30 seconds earlier (it was the end part to a very long answer about how the relationship between Dib and his dad was more "human" in the movie than in the show):
Jhonen: His dad goes back to not remembering anything at the end, so we've just robbed him of all that validation. And people HATE that! I've seen people get so angry that we just reset it. I'm like, have you WATCHED the show? Like, characters are DEAD and in the next episode they're back. (Pause) The Tallest are dead. (Nods smiling as the crowd laughs and "aww!"s)
Killed Off for Real would suggest that they are not only dead, but dead in a way that future continuity will respect. The whole quote goes against the idea of respecting continuity. Some kind of death trope would be appropriate to note, but not that one.
Edited by Tyoria