Page Action: No Yay

Am I the only one really bothered by this trope's existence?

I mean, I get that some of these ships, like the incest ones are creepy but reading through the examples I feel like a lot of these are being put on by people who just don't like the ship. And since it's almost all male/male examples, it seems like this trope seems like an excuse for the counterpart of Hetis Ew.

Also it seems like there's a lot of debate going on in the examples over whether it's No Yay or Fetish Fuel.

Is there anyway we can remove all the examples, and just leave the description since it seems to be extremely YMMV?

edited 29th Nov '10 8:16:23 PM by ukiiukii

Interesting, I didn't realize the capitalization of the destination page title is dependent on the capitalization of the Wiki Word, e.g. Het Is Ew vs Hetis Ew. (Blue Wizard needs redirects badly.)

The Laconic is "When Subtext leads to Squick"... that seems legit, is it just that there are a lot of lame examples? Or is it not tropeable?

edited 29th Nov '10 8:16:11 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.

Yeah it's mostly that there are a lot of lame examples, and also that most of the examples have several edits below debating whether it's No Yay or Fetish Fuel.

It seems like something that's so subjective that there shouldn't be examples at all, just a description.

There's also listing for things that are just plain old Text, like Sakura Gari and Oz. I mean, really?

I would suggest just a clean up, but it seems like cutting examples would be tidier and better.

edited 29th Nov '10 8:25:20 PM by ukiiukii

yeah, i never really got the intention of this, uh, trope? it seems like the purpose is just to have a page to say "subtext for ship X" bothers me and eventually we'll end up repeating half the stuff that's already in Ho Yay or Incest Yay, but in a more negative light. which makes no sense, considering both Ho Yay and Incest Yay are already tagged as subjective.

i say cut.

I say cut. Incest Yay makes it mostly obsolete.

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.

And while we are at it, put back Incest Yay on the main namespace.

I vote for cutting too.

We have a thread for that already.

she her hers hOI!!! i'm tempe

Fetish Retardant/Erection Rejection?

edited 30th Nov '10 7:42:18 PM by JackMackerel

Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.

That sounds a lot like Fan Disservice.

Cutlisted.

Alright, looks like someone really doesn't want the page to get cut. Valid counterarguments were made.

So, trying to figure out a compromise!

I'm thinking, change the description to make it more valid and remove the examples/move them over to Troper Tales.

Is everyone okay with that?

edited 1st Dec '10 12:09:23 PM by ukiiukii

Well, I ended up as the page's accidental champion, but I'd never even been there before today - it's more of a "let's try to fix it first" principle.

For starters, I'll go through it tonight with a flamethrower and cut the natter and questionable examples, so we can see what the page really looks like without the cruft. That it's subjective and negative isn't necessarily bad on its own, but listing every possible pairing that someone doesn't like is serious People Sitting On Chairs duplication.

edited 1st Dec '10 12:54:43 PM by BritBllt

"And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"

Yeah the more I read through it, the more it just needs a MASSIVE edit and a more clear-cut description to make it more neutral and valid.

Okay, cleaned up everything that was just two names, or was just another one of the Yay tropes or actually happened in the canon. Also added a little bit to the intro to make the idea of the trope a bit clearer. The guiding principle here should probably be "Yay + Squick = No Yay". Two guys having sexual tension is not a No Yay, that's just Ho Yay. But if one of the guys is a bloodthirsty serial killer who murdered the other guy's family, now we're talking.

I think that's a decent objective scale for keep the page free of stuff like "ew, they're cousins" while listing parings like Harry and Voldemort that really are No Yay; it's not just a yay, but a yay + something else that pushes it into squicky territory.

edited 1st Dec '10 3:54:26 PM by BritBllt

"And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"

Yes, but the problem here is that there isn't any subtext between Harry and Voldemort. So, if that example is added, it means its a somewhat fan-popular pairing. I agree that it's utterly Squick, but it sets a precedent for complaining about pairings you don't like. Cloud and Sephiroth are a very popular pairing, but that still qualifies as No Yay, considering they're mortal enemies.

I'm afraid the trope will devolve again into "this completely non-canon pairing is disgusting by my personal preference".

Unfortunately that's exactly what the trope is right now. And why I have such an issue with it.

We're trying to tweak it so that the description makes it clear that the subtext is intentional and intentionally squicky.

We're also doing a mass purge of the examples and telling people to take their personal squick over to the Troper Tales.

I'm going to be policing this trope for the next while and if it's still a huge problem I think we should make it a No Examples allowed page.

Please let me know if the new description is any better or if it still needs some work.

I have some issues with Harry and Voldemort, but it's the page pic, so it seems wrong to leave it off. And it could be argued that there's No Yay there: Voldemort's literally a part of Harry and vice versa, they share each other's thoughts, dreams and memories, and there's that whole business about their wands being intertwined. The pieces are there for anyone who wants to go crazy with them, though the entry could stand to be rewritten with all that in mind.

I'd say Cloud and Sephiroth are just plain Foe Yay. I guess someone could make the argument that killing Aerith took Sephiroth over the line into No Yay territory with Cloud, but at the least, requiring such rationales rather than just "X and Y, oh god no!" alone cuts down on the majority of entries. It can't just be "they're relatives" or "they're the same sex" or "they're enemies". There has to be something else to add the No to the Yay, and it has to be explained. As long as an entry does that, it's probably okay.

And with that, I'm off to bed. :)

(Edit: The revisions look good so far! I don't think we need to have a note about Troper Tales just yet, though. If just keeping the page clean is sufficient to keep away the "I hate this pairing" entries, then we won't even need a home for them.)

edited 1st Dec '10 9:05:35 PM by BritBllt

"And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"

Goodnight! Thanks for all the help with this monstrosity thus far. Glad we could come to an agreement on everything ^^

If it's intentionally Squicky, than isn't it Fan Disservice? Hm...I do see where the trope would lie, though, actually, so maybe not. I don't know how familiar you are with Full Metal Panic, but there's an overt obsession the Big Bad has with the protagonist, and it is damn creepy. No Yay—that makes a lot of sense.

Hm. Yeah, maybe it is a viable trope.

I don't see how Cloud and Sephiroth aren't No Yay, considering how much he hates him, and all the evil he commits against the world and Cloud himself. That's what I mean by the examples being altered according to personal preference: they're both Bishōnen, so chances of absolution in the eyes of the fangirls is much more likely. If he was Quasimodo ugly, I'm sure fangirls would be much less forgiving. Give 'em a pretty face, and ho there, Draco in Leather Pants.

edited 2nd Dec '10 6:51:53 PM by helterskelter

Yes exactly! Fullmetal Panic is a perfect example of why this can be a valid trope!

Essentially the criteria to make it No Yay has to have some element that crosses it over into really unpleasant territory, like pedophilic or non-consensual overtones. Gauron being a perfect example of No Yay. Even most of the Yaoi Fangirls (and boys!) are creeped out by that.

I would argue against Cloud and Sephiroth only because there's no overtly sexual subtext in their relationship. Of course I haven't played FF 7 in quite a while so correct me if I'm wrong. Yes they're both bishonen, yes they're both bitter enemies, yes the fangirls ship them like crazy. But if there's no examples of romantic or sexual subtext in canon, then it doesn't belong on No Yay. If there is however then we can definitely put it back in there.

Discriminating based on looks is actually another excellent point, I went through and removed quite a few examples that used unattractiveness as a justification for No Yay, because I think that's a bit of a Double Standard.

We've cleaned out 90% of the examples on that page.

Cuts were:

-Incest. Goes on the Incest Yay page. A few were kept in, like Trigun but they were kept because of an added element of squick, like Knives Full-Frontal Assault and Emotional Torture.

-Canon relationships. If they actually hooked up, or romantic attraction is explicity stated, it's not subtext. And not No Yay.

-Obscure Pairings/Pairings with no direct evidence or reference to any kind of romantic overtones. Half the examples on there were just "X and X, ewwww!"

-Pairings with flimsy justifications like "they're incestuous" (since there's a page for that now) "they're the same sex" "the fandom ships them and I don't" or "They're ugly!"

The ones that were left included:

-Involving someone very underaged.

-Extreme inequality in the pairing for example the pursuer being clearly unwelcome and predatory/threatening

-Any kind of non-consensual overtones.

Still not happy with the description, I think the wording's a bit too vague. I'll keep picking away at it.

But like I said I'm going to keep my eye on this page for a while and police the examples.

edited 2nd Dec '10 8:23:41 AM by ukiiukii

Also maybe we should change the page image to Gauron and Sousuke instead? They're kind of the Most Triumphant Example at this point.

I kind of agree that the Harry/Voldemort ship's justification is a bit vague but we can't take it off the examples if it's the page image.

i'm not familiar with Full Metal Panic, but, uh, wouldn't that be Foe Yay? or is it only Foe Yay if the protagonist is also obessed with the Big Bad?

see, i just really don't get what this trope is supposed to be.

What crosses the line with FMP is that the Big Bad's obsession started when the Protagonist was 12, and after the Big Bad's failed attempt at Wife Husbandry with him, he's been stalking him obsessively, telling him things like "I'm going to kill you and then rape your corpse" and threatening to maim/rape/murder those close to him. It's very, very one-sided and extremely creepy.

(The page entry describes it in more detail and more eloquently)

The point that we're trying to make is that No Yay would be romantic subtext used specifically to induce a negative reaction.

edited 2nd Dec '10 1:12:37 PM by ukiiukii