The Military Thread

The Handle: the traditional interservice rivalry is a different kind of bias. Everyone was nothing more then shades of green.

The Filipino Peacekeepers have repelled the Syrian rebels around Position 68, while it was only in Position 69 that the UNDOF commander asked them to pull back, with Irish peacekeepers able to establish an escape route for them.

All Filipino peacekeepers are either members of the Scout Rangers or the Special Forces (Airborne).

edited 30th Aug '14 7:17:49 PM by entropy13

I just wonder if UNDOF will further be compromised by al-Nusra forces...

In the midst of responding to the discussion regarding Rommel’s performance some pages back, I got some Fridge Logic that I inadvertently managed to scrounge up a miniature archive completely devoted to the man over the years; as the very first German historical figure of WWII aside from Hitler that I was introduced to as a child, I apparently was always interested in his exploits.

Anyways, I'll quote a particular user from my time in Nation States regarding Rommel‘s strengths and faults.

Rommel generally is seen by historians as a classic example of The Peter Principle when it comes to military history. His peers apparently thought so too, as Rundstedt actually commented that "He was a brave man, and a very capable commander in small operations - but not really qualified for high command." It’s quite clear that the string of battlefield successes in his pocket prior to his promotion to the strategic level in North Africa were mainly tactical and operational in nature; his WWI career dotted with his signature flanking and probing maneuvers in Belgium and the Alps were clearly something to serve as a base for promotion in the future. Luckily for him, Rommel was able to handle the responsibilities of division-level command capably with the success of the famed “Ghost Division” during the 1940 invasion of France. It’s really only when his rank got raised Up To Eleven while being assigned the DAK did the signs of him touching his effective “ceiling” of competence really began to show; the infamous and oft-mentioned controversies regarding his messy handling of logistics being an obvious example.

Like as I do whenever I attempt to understand why a historical figure did and acted the way they did, I try to put myself in Rommel’s boots to try and find the roots behind his flaws as a human being. I see his ineptness at supplying his forces being the result of personal inexperience at doing so in the first place, while also being outside of his field of comfort and familiarity for him to grasp effectively especially considering the intense strain and stress placed upon anyone commanding a military campaign with drastic geopolitical consequences. In his past campaigns, Rommel was typically assigned a forward role which often left little room and time for logistical affairs, which were typically handled by other officers farther back from the front; the fact that he had to actually command his mountain troop battalion flat on his [wounded from shell fragments] back at one point during World War I attests to this. While he may have preached, as any reasonably capable military officer would, careful logistical management in his writings, it’s a renowned fact of human nature that giving advice is much easier than actually following it; that being said, one can draw analogies to the historical irony of many a fighter ace being shot down after going against one of their own maxims.

While Rommel’s command of the 7th Panzer Division featured his signature Attack! Attack! Attack! methods as always, I'd have to argue that luck was in his favor considering the much more compact and supply and resource-rich geography of France compared with the wide barren expanses of North Africa. His forces also were connected to a fluid and largely secure supply network linked overland from Germany, compared with the DAK’s sea-based lifelines constantly vulnerable to Allied naval and air interdiction and that forced supplies and reinforcements to arrive in fragmented convoys - not to mention how potential DAK resources were constantly being transferred over to the Eastern Front at the time.

I should also mention that Rommel’s Attack! Attack! Attack! methods were what enabled the initial success of the DAK in the first place; following their near-annihilation of the Italian offensive against Egypt during Operation Compass, Middle East Command expected what shattered and shaken remnants of Graziani’s forces to dig in and prepare for a logically forthcoming Allied advance offensive. While intelligence intercepts managed to inform them of Rommel and the German intervention in the region, MEC put their hopes on the DAK being used as a temporary buffer force to bolster the fledgling Italians while the latter reorganized and rebuilt themselves. Thus, the Eighth Army, still retaining the strategic initiative due to the Axis going on the defensive, would have the time to prepare and launch an offensive ideally before the DAK could deploy their full strength into gear. History having foretold the future of then, nobody, not even Rommel’s superiors themselves, really expected him to have the DAK go full Leeroy Jenkins as soon as he set foot on the sands; the result was a bewildered Eighth Army scrambling to defend its gains while its generals and commanders were reeling in disbelief that this was actually happening.

While Rommel’s relations with his Italian allies are somewhat of a muddy field of knowledge for me to trod, I can somewhat understand being untrustworthy of working with a partner whose own delusional ambitions led to them getting on the ass end of the Curbstomp Battle that was their invasion of Egypt. Plus, while the Italians had units certainly with the capabilities to hold a fight on their own such as their crack Bersaglieri mountain troops, these were largely bruised by the time Rommel was sent to North Africa; it’s certainly logical for him to put much more faith in the more solid records, reputations, and better equipment of his own German forces, of which a decent number had served with him in France, than of the able, but less-motivated and less reputable Italians. Plus, it’s been said that Rommel seemed to have been at least minimally aware of Allied intelligence operations - considering the Italians’ colossal scale of failure at handling their invasion of Egypt, it wouldn't be far fetched for him to at least merely suspect that the British might have gotten their leaks from infiltrating his allies. That being said, Rommel to me seems to be the kind of superior that distrusts and chews out anyone untested with potentially doubtful performance, but rewards and is fiercely protective of subordinates able to prove themselves capable and competent. Although I've picked up the infamous claims of him retreating without informing the Italian units under his command and so forth, Rommel would seem rather hypocritical to do so while praising the more competent and effective of the Italians; namely his quotes where he lauds that the “Italian Bersaglieri has impressed the German soldier”, and how “. . . the Italians [of the Ariete, Trieste, and Littorio divisions], who at that time [of the Second El-Alamein] represented our strongest motorized force, fought with exemplary courage.”

I can certainly see where such criticisms are rooting from however; a simple read on the aftermath of the Second El-Alamein points out that the hardest hit Axis units were unanimously Italian - the Trento, Bologna, and Ariete divisions were effectively destroyed as forces. The various German DAK units on the other hand, while shocked and dented, were able to withdrawal relatively intact in comparison; despite being reduced to a meager handful of vehicles, what remained of the 21st Panzer Division was still able to decently perform rearguard actions during the retreat to Tunisia. However, it should be noted that an attempt by Rommel to break out the his encircled Italian divisions with German units would’ve required some serious luck and time that he had all but lost by the twilight of the battle; having lost the majority of their vehicles and equipment in the ferocity of the fighting, the three trapped Italian divisions were unable to conduct an Eastern Front or Chosin-style pocket breakout, while their German allies, assuming that they themselves still possessed sufficient mechanized assets to aid the Italians, would have had to risk exposing themselves to further Allied encirclement should Rommel had given the order to attempt relief of his allies. The fact that Hitler then ordered him to commit his army into a Stalingrad-style Last Stand only make matters worse, as Rommel was now put under pressure to keep the Italian divisions up front instead of having them withdraw.

Thus, with his offensive broken and army facing annihilation by the hour in disarray, Rommel was forced to invest what little time and resources his forces had in either risking his remaining intact forces in a gambit that would involve attempting to break out the encircled Italian divisions that otherwise now lacked the mechanized ability to reliably escape, or investing in a more cautious choice by preserving what was left of his primarily German forces and having the remnants of the Axis in North Africa retreat into Tunisia - which would come at the cost of purposely allowing three formerly reliable Italian divisions to be destroyed at the hands of their Allied encirclements. History has shown that Rommel opted for the latter option, and henceforth he abandoned the trapped Italians to serve as futile rearguard actions as to buy time for his surviving DAK forces to get safe passage to Tunisia; by doing so he allowed the Axis in North Africa to live to fight another day as to inflict further damage upon the Allies from there, whereas even a successful breakout of the Italians would have to slow down the retreat as to accommodate their destroyed vehicle pools, which would only expose Rommel’s army even further to the juggernaut of Montgomery’s counter-offensive.

It should also be mentioned that the call wasn't an easy one for him, despite some of the revisionist criticisms that I've read indicating otherwise; in his personal memoirs, however reliable of a source they may be disputed to be, Rommel lamented the loss of the Italian divisions and their effective troops and personnel. He gave particular mention to the Ariete, which was arguably the very best and most successful of Italy’s armoured divisions of the war: “In the Ariete we lost our oldest Italian comrades, from whom we had probably always demanded more than they, with their poor armament, had been capable of performing.”

One must wonder whether the Desert Fox was having a Villainous BSOD as he was writing, since he just downright admitted to Achaemenid’s (mind, a person living more than seventy years after his death) and various academic criticisms that he had pushed his Italian forces way beyond their operational capabilities.

edited 31st Aug '14 10:07:14 AM by FluffyMcChicken

It's quite fortunate in a sense that the best overall commander the Germans ever had in that period was Guderian. Since becoming Inspector-General, thanks to personal rivalries/jealousies all of the good things he tried doing had their effectiveness greatly reduced. His relationship with "Wehrmacht generals" were somewhat bad because they just know that they WILL be overshadowed if he keeps getting his way (even if they're the "right things", in hindsight), while his relationship with "Nazi generals" are understandably full of contempt.

edited 30th Aug '14 10:43:07 PM by entropy13

@MRAP's for the police:

The DOD's "1033" program got out of hand as The '90s wore on and the War on Drugs became The War On Terror. Conventional wisdom at the time was that police were "outgunned" by criminals (never mind that only occurred south of the border).

Several police departments did legally purchase M113 and LAV surplus from the Defense Department. But soon lawmakers, the DOD and the police unions saw a was to get goodies for "free".

Most police departments are staffed with your average John and Jane Q. Public. And most police officers have the thankless job of trying to keep order when seeing the worst of humanity in action. Many did welcome the 1033 program because it did give police new weapons and night vision at a time when crime was high. In El Paso, a DHS grant got AR-15 carbines for the police just in case the violence spreads across the border. The LAPD got thousands of M16 rifles after the Hollywood shootout.

However, the "Sorry We Ain't Trained" mall ninja crowd also saw the 1033 program, the cammies and the flack vests as an excuse to show their ass. Shooting dogs, no knock raids, flash bangs tossed at children: it's the attitude of the occupying army, not the police.

One blogger did point out that there was no "golden era of policing":

Police, like most people, default to their lowest level of training. And if the police think that the people are "the enemy" guess what happens?

I had an aunt who got a visit from the El Paso Police back in The '80s. They tossed her house, cuffed and stuffed her, her kids and her husband. Oops! They had the wrong house. And they just left. 'Cause back then that's how it was done. If those assclowns had M-4's and flashbangs, my aunite would've had a heart attack.

The Albuquerque Police Dept. shot a homeless man with a knife. That doesn't bother me. What does piss me off was the Go Pro attached to one cop's M-4. They were filiming it like the War Porn out of Iraq. They emptied a magazine into this guy. All while they dressed like "soldiers". The M-4 clone was even painted cammo. They now have an MRAP. APD was trigger happy before, I shudder to think what they'll do now.

The 1033 program had it's day.

The APC's and MRAPS are fuel hungry (gallons per mile) maintenance intensive beasts. Some LEO's have MRAPS just sitting there because while they were free, electrical work isn't. Most of the powerpacks are very temperamental. The flash bangs are not as "non-lethal" as people think.

The unsexy community policing will make a comeback. We'll see the 1033 program taper off as MRAP'S and APC's sit idle after they throw a rod or the fuel bill gets too much.

It's the attitude: police shouldn't wear cammo, they shouldn't try to dress like Delta-Seal-Ranger-Marine-Six wanabees. That's the heart of the matter. The voters need to tell the mayors and police chiefs that if they are not going to get the training, they shouldn't get the toys.

Sadly, the media, the politicans and the voters will overreact again when the next big incident comes out. And the Barny Fiefs will once again get their MRAP's and M-4's.

edited 30th Aug '14 11:40:12 PM by TairaMai

@ Achaemenid (#35718): I'll just add two other reasons:

• Most of the countries that want MRAPs either have already got all (or more) then they require, and are buying/producing their own new vehicles.
• Can't afford or need to buy, run or receive new or second-hand MRAPs.

Re: "You are all green", if we're any color, the Air Force tends to be blue. Going through a PME course like Airman Leadership School or the NCO Academy is sometimes referred to as getting "Re-blued".

China are developing supersonic submarines.

I assume there's no way in Hell those things could be stealthy?

Well, yes, since they can outrun their sound signature (although you can still see them from behind). I am not sure how they are powered, though - overcoming the sound barrier and the water resistance at once at such a high speed is gonna cost tons of energy.

Yeah that is a polite way of saying YO I AM OVER HEAR!

That's not the point, they're supposed to be fast. The torpedo that supercavitates would have been used to sink carriers using it's speed.

Its not a torpedo its a sub.

...I'd hate to try to steer that thing. Get it slightly wrong and hit a sandbank you didn't know was there at just the wrong time and...

That, and you'll have to clean the splattered remains of marine wildlife you ran into.

I wonder if there's any critter out there that is solid enough to break the sub if it was rammed. Probably not, I can't think of anything right off the bat at any rate.

A whale, maybe? Inertial forces are strong.

Gaint squid. Good luck getting that off, even if it doesn't puncture the hull.

Is this Red Alert now? We need to close the Giant Squid gap with the Russians

The QF-16 Drone:

Whoops, T-hound 'd me just as I was posting. The Chinese supersub... we'll see if they can make it work.

If anything can break the sub, it's probably a whale.

I still wonder if the whale would be pierced by the sub or it would stop it more or less dead on its track.

That depends upon the whale's mass relative to the one of the sub and the viscosity of the whale's body.

It's say it depends on the whale. At those speeds it's gonna take damage no matter what but, say, a blue whale compared to an orca, it's be much worse off

The wake alone would probably pulp smaller creatures.

I just want to draw the thread's attention to this shocking site which disgracefully makes the late RP. Hunnicutt's books on US armor available online for free .pdf download. How dare they do such a naughty legally-dubious thing! I shall post a link here only so that you may join in my feelings of unbridled outrage, and no other reason whatsover.

edited 31st Aug '14 8:41:07 AM by Achaemenid

I spent five days working on that defense of Rommel, it'd be nice if some people would respond to it at least. __

Putin, defiant toward West, likens Ukraine conflict to WWII

Dear God, how this is both hilarious and Harsherin Hindsight - World War II in Europe breaks out in only a matter of hours in the Eastern Europe's timezone. IIRC, German panzers were crossing the border into Poland at exactly 4:00 AM that first of September.