The Over-Committee Meeting Room

Target audience: I think your approaching that in the wrong way. We can target just ourselves in a lovely circle jerk of fan fic writing. We can target those we know on the forum or the 1% who are contributors or all tropers who have read a trope page or all internet based nerddom as an advertising beacon for the sight. Etc. Target as in aim as in "what part of them are we going to hook them by".

Character numbers: As in Heroes levels, Dollhouse levels or Supernatural levels. As in "decide how character story telling and screen time gets distributed" and "decide the level of identification and familiarity the audience will form".

Boss dog: The thing is Ironeye you are good with going around and getting people talking but you are deeply part of the "analysis paralysis". You managed to get a committee together but then you started talking about the Eighth wall. I will throw my hat in  ^*

the Boss Dawg ring because I said transform and roll out, I said we just need something written, because I did something at least with the voice acting, because I prefer my list of starting points and because I think I can do "I will will cut off my dick and throw it through the sky, over the Atlantic so that it buries itself in the back of your skull and I can skull fuck you from 3000 miles away if you don't get this done."

Oh, yes, I'm certainly a tweaker. I was trying to get someone else to take over for months, but no one else actually understood the plot, so I just gave up. And, as should be very clear at this point, I'm a plot guy. I've never had any particular interest in the format of the show, or the number of background gags, or anything like that, so long as the story that gets told is a good one. Thus, even though I selected the "tone" question as the most important one on my list, well, the Eighth Wall one was the one I cared about most.

If all of the candidates are ok with me being one of the key architects of the plot, I will gladly remove myself from consideration.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

You not being one of the key architects of the plot would be a huge time wasting change so consider it a given from my end.

I am wanted due to entirely practical reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of my work.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

It's grad school all over again!

Could you perhaps give examples with regards to your "character numbers" question?

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Well, for our pilot we can either do our Non-Indicative First Episode because at least we have a full outline for it. We can even concentrate on the hydra stuff to see how it will go.

Another suggestion is to just make a short vignette five to ten minutes.

What we need to do with this is take the characters we have and see how they interact and react to the world we build. If we find things that are missing, we can work from there.

Worry about consistency later. Consistency will come from knowing who these people are and what they can do.

edited 10th Jan '10 5:05:30 PM by arks

Video Game Census. Please contribute.

If we're going based on the outlines, I would argue that the 4th episode has the best one—the outline for the first and second leave too much open, while the outline for third needs to be redone, anyway.

Edit: Consistency will come in time, yes, but it is quite problematic when some characters are inconsistent with the premise of the show. Murky needs to be fixed. While I'd love to alter Furiko's power, as well, at least it makes sense in the context of the premise.

edited 10th Jan '10 5:09:56 PM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

OK so I think an obvious thing to do is refer to the relevant tropes. We can have Ensembles or we can have a single hero. We can choose three or five or seven or a dozen. But they have pros and con and we have to consider our resources and our audience.

If we want Nakama appeal or a variety of personalities so that a lot of people can identify we one character in particular then we need more characters. Let's say at least we are going for the Band of Brothers appeal, we still have choices between how we tier primary and secondary characters and how we spend time on them.

Supernatural had two main character and so equal developement for either of them was easy and didn't require a lot of split off. However nearly every week they would meet somebody new and occasionally they would have to reveal something about their dad. So if we have only six face or only six voices is that ok? Using those faces/voices over and over again with just a slight variation? Could we use Nurse Jenny to make up for it?

Or say we have six characters. Now is it going to be a bit more like Buffy where you have the star and then you have the other characters be defined in their interaction with her? Because then you may occasionally need a Day in the Limelight which will mean the occasional episode away from the main plot.

Or perhaps it is six characters but it is more like an Animorphs approach where it is equal characterisation for all. That series had a change over of focus with each installment. It's a bit more like our episode list for season 1 with the shifting three. On the other hand, that means that each time you focus on just that one (or three) you can only focus on that one.

What you also get with six or so character, you see, is that some characters will go off and have a B plot. The B plot can be connected by a variavle degree. CSI has two separate cases. Criminal Minds has one team at the base and another at the suburbia of the week. Two cases which are very much controlled by the episodic format and their ability to easily justify the split. There is one example which is much more relevant to us... but I've completely forgotten it.

When you get into larger numbers you either get into everyone becoming a one line description e.g. The Dirty Dozen has the one with the knife, the big guy, the religious southerner, the one who would later have a career etc. or, more practically for TV, the Heroes mehtod of having about three lines, some waiting, and finding ways to keep them relevant to each other but not boneheaded really difficult.

I've not even gotten into the issue of the side characters yet really. But compare Supernatural- you have the two boys and maybe their dad and then Star Trek- the Power Trio but then also we still all remember Sulu, Uhura, Scotty, Chekov and that attractive yeoman who Kirk would hit on all the time.

With us, I am at this point perhaps more confused than I should be but I know that we did try to form a kind of Buffy form with Hikari as the star (remember that?), then our switch method became a little more Animorphsy but, if we want more plot, B plots may be easier. Also if we want more characters they aren't going to be as developed under those systems as with a Heroes like system.

OK, with our first episode, what we have is actually quite well formed. We were in fact closest with the casting for that one (if that matters anymore), it can be non-indicative because it would be very hard to introduce the fictite invasion concept and the post-apocalyptic setting without that. However, the pilot is going to need to introduce the main characters for the first season and maybe the big bad (if we have one and that is going to depend on the seasons a little bit).

By the way- seasons, I'm thinking 5 may need to be an absolute limit. We jsut aren't going to get 7 out. We may have little chance of 5 but any more is impossible for us to do and know our character ends which I presume are important for us. 7 seasons is going to need even more plot than we have at the moment and yet we still need to know exactly how it ends? Not going to happen.

edited 10th Jan '10 5:19:15 PM by SomeSortOfTroper

We had plenty of plot for seven seasons, assuming that we had a reasonable number of stand-alone episodes. Considering the opposition faced just to add plot at all to the first season, it was a safe assumption that there would be plenty of plot-filler (though not necessarily true Filler in that it would advance the characters).

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Thoughts on the format, because posting on vent would take forever:

Assuming we're actually going to make this online, we are talking about a webseries, not a television series. The medium is similar, but fundamentally different. Look at any web series, from The Guild to Charlie The Unicorn; one thing they all have in common is that they are all aimed at viewers with a fairly short attention span. It's assumed that the show will be short and convenient to follow.

Therefore, perhaps we should go with maybe 3-7 minute long episodes released daily making up weekly arcs, rather than 40 minute long episodes released weekly.

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And just have Cliffhangers for the episodes that don't finish the story?

It would be closer to what the web is, though. Also that means we don't have to hold our stories to a specific length, which is part of what was bogging us down.

Video Game Census. Please contribute.

Thoughts: No matter the format, you should be able to take our content and 10 million dollars and make the TV show.

There is definitely something to be said for restricting ourselves to smaller chunks: it will force us to focus on making every scene worthwhile instead of spending an entire episode marginalizing the main characters in order to subvert as many horror tropes as possible and begin a trilogy that doesn't have anything to do with the main plot nor the characterization.

Anyway, I've tried to find a way to trim down the cast list so that we don't have to worry about 20+ characters on the main team. Cutting out characters with AWOL contributors or who never fit particularly well, we get:

• Fast Eddie
• Janitor
• arks
• Cody
• Faw
• Hikari
• Ironeye
• Jinxed
• Kara
• Korgmeister
• Kyler
• Matrix
• Murky

In terms of the omitted characters, here are the reasons (Code: NR—not relevant, CG—contributor gone):

• The Adversary—CG, NR
• Bisected—CG, NR
• Chaingun—CG, NR
• C Trombley— CG, NR (with the Eighth Wall)
• Freezair—CG, NR
• Furiko—CG, problematic power
• Jethro—CG, NR
• Lull—CG, NR, even Lull couldn't find a way to get the subplot working
• Sae—CG, NR
• Tangent—CG, NR
• Tropey—CG, NR, an improperly done Shout-Out to boot
• Vampire Buddha—CG, NR (with Trombley gone)
• Zeta—CG, NR
• John A Dreams—CG, NR
• Pentadragon—CG, NR
• SSOT—NR (without Trombley, Te Ch, or VB), too much of The Mario
• mrsaturn—NR
• Kat—NR, tonally inconsistent with the rest of the story, has a subplot that depends on characters that have no other relevance
• Darth Matrix—NR

The team we have is pretty balanced.

Personality

• arks
  • Had a breakdown shortly before C-Day and is still recovering—it's not like the Convergence helped things any
  • Acts like The Pollyanna and an idiot in part to disarm people and in part because of his current insecurity
  • He's just tagging along to be present for a fun story, and since he can't be killed, he can afford be quite impulsive when in the field.
  • Potential Future Material: regaining confidence through experience; what is the weakness of the invincible man?—having companions he's unwilling to lose.
• Cody
  • Just wants to be noticed, by bullying those he can and trying to gain the respect of those he can't—which can be hard, considering the people only notice him when they're looking for him.
  • Got screwed over, in a way, by his over-protective and conservative parents, who had high standards
  • Potential Future Material: Becoming, you know, well-adjusted
• Faw
  • The amnesiac Team Dad who is more in-tune with nature than the rest of the team, at the expensive of being reactive instead of proactive
  • Like his "daughter", he tends to be friendly to everyone and tries to use his instincts and peaceful demeanor to having a soothing effect on people
  • Potential Future Material: A romance with the resident Ice Queen, mentoring the Team Mom
• Hikari
  • A geeky high school student who is idealistic to a fault and who lives by Honor Before Reason.
  • Totally fanboys over the tropers, Ironeye in particular
  • Potential Future Material: Being sent down the path of an Anti-Hero by the actions of Ironeye, then pulling out of it by the end of the story; dealing with the being possessing him
• Ironeye
  • A former grad student who acts very cheerful, concealing that he suppresses his emotions
  • This second layer of emotionless cynicism conceals the inner idealism that he thinks is holding him back—it still strongly colors his actions at time, particularly with regards to Karalora
  • Potential Future Material: Finally losing control as a result of Kara's breakdown, giving up to become an amoral Smug Snake, changing to Necessarily Evil when he recovers because he believes he is already morally compromised, surviving to spend the rest of his life atoning for his actions; confrontations with Matrix, Hikari, and Kara
• Jinxed
  • Cheerfully clumsy naive teenager who sees the best in everyone
  • His a very mischievous side to her, but it's all in good fun
  • Potential Future Material: Going through the tail end of puberty—growing up (but not too much ), becoming an action hero like her surrogate father figure
• Kara
  • The Team Mom who lost everyone she knew in the Convergence and now has attached herself to a new "family"—she rather resistant to new people "barging into" the group
  • Tries to get everyone in her "family" a happy ending despite their tendency to, you know, have free will
  • Potential Future Material: Getting poisoned and eventually having a breakdown after she recovers as a result because she is forced to accept that while she can heal others' wounds, she's quite vulnerable herself
• Korgmeister
  • A Knight in Sour Armor who runs Mission Control for the main team after they join TV Tropes
  • Is only involved out of self-interest—he's getting paid well
  • Regularly has his pessimistic predictions proven wrong, but occasionally gets a shocker when things are even worse than he imagined.
  • Future Material: Is singled out as a weak point due to his selfish attitude, only for the villains to discover that he's already being paid enough that money can't buy him, and his ideals can't be manipulated like with some of the others
• Kyler
  • The stubborn loner who is secretly afraid of being alone.
  • Turns into a Team Dad who is understanding to a fault, in part due to knowing everyone's true selves, as it were
  • Potential Future Material: Opening up to others and trying to let them help him the way he's helped them
• Matrix
  • The playful comic relief who never gets taken seriously, secretly resenting this
  • Has Yandere tendencies that can get in the way
  • Potential Future Material: Giving in to the Hannibal Lecture and turning on the team; realizing that they genuinely liked him and remaining loyal to them while he attempts to deal with his temper and his tendency to obsess over his love interests
• Murky
  • The resident Emotionless Girl who harbors an inner Yaoi Fangirl
  • Potential Future Development: defrosting towards Fawriel, and later towards everyone else

More on powers/skills and character relationships tomorrow

edited 11th Jan '10 2:25:51 AM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

I have a new idea. How about after Matrix falls for the Hannibal Lecture and does his Face–Heel Turn, he adopts the persona of Darth Matrix, dying his hair, ear fur, and tail fur neon green-tealish. He wouldn't have a change in moveset, of course. It would be mostly a cosmetic/attitude change.

And, well, we'd still get to reference the forum joke and have it make sense, too.

edited 11th Jan '10 2:47:02 AM by Matrix

Oh, and we also discussed a change in the plot such that the original team organized on their own and wandered around the country helping people rebuild/protecting them from fictites until Eddie and Janitor recruit them as a group at some point in the first season (probably the finale). Later additions to the initial Five-Man Band would come either as a result of meeting people in Season 1 or having other tropers join them once they're part of the larger organization. My best take on the original Five-Man Band (+more):

• The Hero: Hikari
• The Lancer: Cody
• The Smart Guy: Ironeye
• The Big Guy: Murky
• The Chick: arks (ultimately subverted, of course)
• Team Mom: Kara (also the organizer and leader of the team)
• Team Pet: Matrix

Korg is a TV Tropes member who ends up filling in as Mission Control. Fawriel (Team Dad) and Jinxed (Tagalong Kid) are off in Europe and will join later. Kyler ends up being the "true" Sixth Ranger, as he is the only one who is random guy we found instead of being the result of the team joining TV Tropes.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Am I the only person who sees this and thinks we have to work in an ironic reference to his powers in the process?

That was sorta the idea, yeah.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

New proposal: Let's take Sooty's advice and, before we do anything else, write a script for the pilot. And keep it short like Bobby suggests, since we will after all be writing for Internet attention spans. Pretend we're planning to post it on Youtube (which we will probably want to do anyway) and try to keep it under ten minutes.

edited 11th Jan '10 12:00:13 PM by Karalora

That is a good idea, yes. Post 42 was in preparation for that.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Okay. So, should we make a separate thread for the outlining and such for this pilot?

I was actually going to do that when I got back from class (which I just did).

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Oh, right, I almost forgot: I nominate Karalora for Big Dawg, due to her experience and ability to focus on the big picture. Oh, and she's one of the few people who can keep me in line.

edited 13th Jan '10 2:30:24 AM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Second the motion!

(Maybe. I vaguely remember her objecting when someone suggested that, I think?)

This "faculty lot" you speak of sounds like a place of great power...