Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I'll edit it. They're completely different types of evil. Akakios is a tyrant and murderer while Rodin is a mad alchemist without morals

Having seen Machete , I give Torrez a

I think Scourge, Tiggerstar, and Brokenstar's Monster.Literature entries could use a rewrite.

Here's Scourge:

Scourge is probably the worst, being a mass-murderer who wears the teeth of his victims as trophies and reinforces his claws with sharpened dog's teeth, and leads a massive gang of stray cats calling themselves Blood Clan, who, as a group, also have a reputation for extreme violence. Scourge leaves his Clan's kits to fend for themselves; they either advance to the position of warriors, or die in the streets of starvation and predation. Scourge's viciousness is best demonstrated when uses his reinforced claws to injure Tigerstar, the original Big Bad, so terribly that he dies thrashing and gurgling in agony nine times in a row, all the while watching as if the moment was as mundane as grooming his fur. Scourge also ordered Barley's brothers to murder their own sister, Violet, in cold blood just because Barley and Violet were taking care of each other. Barley offered to take his sister's place, but Scourge thought that it would be more sadistic if Barley watched Violet die. Fortunately Violet still lived, and both of them fled Blood Clan.

Here's Tigerstar: Don't feel too bad for Tigerstar though. A powerhungry traitor who murdered his Clan's previous deputy in the hopes of gaining his position, Tigerstar (then Tigerclaw) took his place and began plotting against his leader, Bluestar, planning to murder her as well. Driven out of his Clan when his treachery is exposed, he first leads a band of rogues who prey on all the Clans, before becoming chief of Shadowclan. Taking control of Riverclan, Tigerstar sets up a Naziesque regime, killing halfblood cats, running Windclan out of their home, and plotting to bring the entire forest under his domination. To that end, he invites Scourge into their territory in his worst and final mistake.

And finally, Brokenstar:

Brokenstar is the books' first big bad when, early on, it is shown he sends kits under 6 months old against full grown warriors, tries to kidnap kits from other Clans when his own all die from his harsh training, and forces a Clan out of their territory. When he is blinded by Thunder Clan and given shelter as their prisoner, he still plots with Tigerclaw to kill Bluestar and take over the clan, even though the same clan protected him from Wind Clan and Shadow Clan when they tried to kill him. He is eventually killed by his own mother, Yellowfang, for the safety of The Clan.

I might do rewrites myself for them if no one else wants to, but these don't really list their most heinous crimes (particularly what Tigerstar did at the Bonehill) and what Brokenstar did in the later books (not Tigerstar or Scourge though, since they were given Freudian Excuses) which included slaughtering one of his to-be followers simply for disobeying him.

edited 24th Jun '13 3:48:09 PM by Klavice

With Hack Slash: Akakios is a tyrant, Ashley's an Enfant Terrible Killer, and Rodin's a Humans Are Bastards sadist.

EDIT: I tweaked Rodin's entry a bit:

EDIT: Is Rodin a Mad Doctor or Mad Scientist? Also, what about The Stand's The Kid?

edited 24th Jun '13 4:08:53 PM by ACW

@14234: Agree with lighty, Flagg's developed plenty and wanting to do things For the Evulz does not make you a Generic Doomsday Villain.

@14236: Good entry for Dr. Rodin.

@14237: I agree with not allowing a character's place on the GDV page to determine whether or not they count for this trope. We can just discuss and come to a consensus here if a villain has enough personality and motive to be a CM.

@14240: Well the spoilers should probably go at the very least, and the unneeded emphasis in Brokenstar's entry.

I put in a request to swap out Joffrey's current entry for the rewrite on the edit request page.

So, what's the consensus on Orochimaru, given last week's chapter? Honestly? He seemed sincere to me.

I'm also guessing we'll have to cut Caesar Clown pretty soon too, since as bizarre as it sounds he actually seems to be bonding with the Straw Hats a bit.

No cut on Orochimaru yet. He basically admitted "I'm doing this for the lulz now."

Same for Caesar until we genuinely see anything redeeming.

You know, I've been thinking about this and I've come to the conclusion that I honestly think the One Piece-verse is a really hard place to breed a CM. In this world, ambition is the best possible quality anyone can have; all the heroes are driven by it, and losing it can turn you into a villain (Moriah and, implicitly, Crocodile). It seems to me that to be completely and utterly irredeemable in the OP-verse, you have to be completely antithetical to the concept of ambition. Thus, Hody is irredeemable because he had no motive, and the Nobles are irredeemable because they already have everything. I'm not saying cut them just yet, but if Caribou, Caesar, or Akainu are ever revealed to have had any sort of dream, tha'ts probably a decent sign they're redeemable. We'll just have to wait and see.

Not really...having a dream isn't necessarily a good thing. Hody's dream was domination.

I think there's a decent chance Kaido may qualify in the future. Also, just having your dreams crushed isn't redeeming. Plenty of people in OP have been through a whole heap of horrible crap but haven't become monsters.

Speaking of last week's chapters, I'm not sure on Yhwach now. Old Man Zangetsu was his past self and he parted with Ichigo on quite amicable terms, so whether that means he was a good guy in the past (at the very least, he implied Yamamoto was pretty monstrous when they fought) or this particular piece of him became a "different" person some how I can't really tell.

Old Man Zangetsu was an entirely different being. Just a representation of Ichigo's Quincy blood. It was able to grow and change with Ichigo.

Yhwach is a whole different person, and bad as Yamamoto was then, he chose the path of atonement. Yhwach did not, and is not implied to have been a good person ever2

With the positive response to Torrez, I've amended the write-up to a full example. How does it look?

• Mexican drug lord Rogelio Torrez in Machete. Of all the villains, Torrez is the only one who doesn't get any redeeming qualities, motives, or hints of remorse, and does what he does only to line his own pockets and to satisfy his sadism. He rockets past the Moral Event Horizon in the first five minutes, kidnapping a girl who has info on his drug ring, brainwashing her so she'll turn on Machete when he tries to rescue her, and then blows her brains out for her loyalty. He brings in Machete's wife's and chops her head off, and casually notes he also killed his school-age daughter on the way there. He doesn't want to give Machete an honourable death by cutting of his head, so instead he sets the building on fire and leaves him for dead to be burned alive. Later in the film he just chuckles at seeing Booth strangle one of his minions to death in front of a computer screen, and is revealed as the mastermind behind the entire Evil Plan to expel all the Mexican immigrants from the US, so he can get a monopoly on the entire drug trade by controlling the border. Even his death scene just manages to make him more disgusting rather than admirable; when Machete impales him he doesn't want to admit he lost and go out in a blaze of glory, so he just drives it in further so it can be said only he himself was able to kill him in the end. Even his female bodyguard walks off in disgust at that point. He used to be Machete's partner in the Federales, so he actually was a good guy at one point before he decided to go darkside entirely of his own will.

EDIT: No, apparently Torrez didn't let Machete live to not give him an honorable death after killing his family, he wanted to burn him alive to cap it off.

edited 25th Jun '13 3:29:07 PM by Morgenthaler

I saw there was an example on The Powerpuff Girls. I tried to search for it to see whether there had been discussion here, but didn't find anything.

It actually seems like a pretty decent example, but thought I'd bring it up just in case.

I don't know if we've discussed him here, but the general consensus of people who've heard of him seems to be that he's a very dark and evil character. I'd say that his episode is the creepiest that PPG ever got, and that's actually saying something, believe it or not.

He was already discussed, I'm pretty sure.

If nobody has any issues, I'll request a lock to the main Comics page Friday 7 PM ET. Please check my sig though. And I subbed Lighty's writeup of Rodin.

I'm wondering if Darkstripe or Hawkfrost from Warrior Cats qualify. They both commit heinous acts such as feeding a kit deathberries (poisonous berries that are lethal to a cat, they are called yewberries in real life) (Darkstripe), kicking the corpse of a dead cat (Hawkfrost), tricking their atheist sister into believing they are a spiritual leader (Hawkfrost), brutally training a group of alive cats to take over the lake, the training has actually caused some cats to die (both), and cowardly aiding Tigerstar (both). Neither are given a Freudian Excuse for their actions aside from It's All About Me and besides the series Big Three C Ms, they are some of the most evil cats in the series. Hawkfrost is also extremely bloodthirsty and started fights with other clans because he could.

I'd at least consider their actions to be Moral Event Horizon actions, but I'm not sure if they would qualify.

edited 25th Jun '13 9:27:51 PM by Klavice

Darkstripe and Hawkfrost were both cut as I recall. Darkstripe for being about as pathetic as they come, and for his loyalty to Tigerstar, Hawkfrost for being thoroughly used by his dad's ghost to the point where it's hard to tell where the moral agency lies.

Not to mention that, in Darkstripe's case, I think people confuse Jerkass with CM. His only real Moral Event Horizon worthy moment is poisoning a kit, and that's it. Compared to the lines crossed by Brokenstar, Tigerstar, or Scourge, that just isn't gonna cut it.

edited 26th Jun '13 12:49:56 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

We can have CM's from kids works right? Well, I found this on the ymmv section for Ernest Goes To Jail:

Complete Monster: Nash easily.

I have seen the film a few ties on you tube so I can fill you in on what he does.

Well, for starters he's a death row inmate, which means he must have commited at least one murder in the past, but that's Offscreen Villainy. In the film, he swaps roles with Ernest (who looks a lot like him) and leaves him in prison to serve out his death sentance while he walks away a free man. Uppon learning that Ernest works at a bank, Nash decides to rob it one night, and talks to his prison contacts to let them know, telling them to make sure no one realizes that Ernest is not him. His men tell Ernest that if he does not act like Nash they will break his back, Ernest isn't intimidated so they tell him that Nash will kill his girlfriend. When Nash goes to rob the bank, he ties up the security guard Chuck along with Ernest's girlfriend, telling them how Ernest should have been executed by then and laughing at them. Nash also plants a bomb to blow the bank up and kill everyone after he escapes. When Ernest arrives (having escaped prison before he could be executed) Nash tries to kill him. Nash gives Ernest a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown but is eventually knocked out.

I am conflicted, on the one hand he's pretty serious for an Ernest villain. On the other hand, I am not sure if he's heinous enough.

Does he actually kill anybody? It's dastardly but hardly up to the typical standards of heinousness we require.

Unless you count the murder that he's already on death row for, no, but he does try to kill people (like Ernest and the people in the bank).

Lots of villains try to kill people. We don't hold it against them that they fail, but you need something a bit more than robbing a bank and impersonating the hero in order to besmirch his name, whilst plotting to blow everyone up.

His other deeds are leaving Ernest in jail to be executed for his crimes, telling his prisin contacts to tell Ernest what he will do to his girlfriend if he does not play along, telling Ernest's girlfriend how Ernest was executed (when he believes he's dead) and laughing at her, and a scene where he demands money from another prisoner while he's working out, and has one of his goons crush said prisoner's arms with a weight while he thretans him, telling him to get the money. Aside from that, nothing else to say about him.

Yeah, Nash from Earnest doesn't even come close to doing enough on screen to count. He's one of the those cases where he has the potential to be one, but never uses it due to the content limitations of the work.