During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Cleric of Banjo
Seems like a keeper. Also kind of interesting that her background sounds like a Deconstruction of something out of Ranma One Half.
On another issue, I wanted to bring up the examples for Once Upon a Time. As I mentioned several pages back (and someone else had echoed), a recent episode (in which she was killed off) would seem to disqualify Cora.
And I'm not sure about the other examples in that they are all IMO less heinous than Regina, Rumpelstiltskin, and Cora (all disqualified because of sympathetic qualities).
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
I'll defer to your knowledge on that matter there. Do Rumplestiltskin and Regina count?
for Empowered, I'd say Ninjette's dad rounds out the list...W Illy Pete is an easy, easy keep and so is Deathmonger
Cleric of Banjo
No- I meant that there are several characters (Regina, Rumpel, and Cora) who do worse things than other villains in the series, but have redeeming qualities.
So, I don't know if the other villains are sufficiently heinous by the standards of the series.
edited 22nd Mar '13 2:43:03 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Well, deferring to you on that end, I guess Once Upon a Time has no CM candidates.
- Mick Cutler in the third game would be an example.
No context
- Joel is clearly this what with his revenge plot for a majority of the webcomic, although this may be challenged by his apparently genuine feelings for Matt. His sister Miranda is a more clear example, being a malignant beast that feeds on negative energies, induces suffering, and used her brother to commit horrific acts. Although it must be noted that Joel still willingly aided Miranda in all of this, being a sadist himself.
Joel is a clear cut.
Cut both
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
What's a Genin and what's a broodmare?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Cleric of Banjo
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm not sure. The way the show works is that there is a main plot that is current in time but the episodes will also include flashbacks that mirror the present story, and one way this often works is to give greater depth to our understanding of a character.
So, it wouldn't surprise me if the show will eventually show more positive aspects of King George (or perhaps even worse ones). I'm not sure we'll see more positive things about the Prince's deceased Evil Twin- although that episode was so badly acted that I'm hesitant to include him.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
A genin is a low level ninja.
A broodmare is a term for a horse whose purpose is breeding new horses. It's carried over to people if they're used for the same. So Ninjette's dad wants to use her for breeding more ninja. The only positive thing you can say is at least it hasn't been said he plans to do the fathering himself
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Say, there's another Marvel character I just remembered who I'm debating with myself on whether or not he qualifies. I thought I'd run him by this thread to collect opinions on him. Ladies and gentlemen, the Founder.
Who is the Founder? He's the Big Bad of Jason Aaron's run on Wolverine. In the 1920s he was the young son of a notorious robber-baron whose workers went on strike. The father brought in thugs from the Pinkertons to control the strike, killing many workers. The workers hired Wolverine to fight the thugs. In response to this, the robber-baron murdered the head of the union. In responser to that, Wolverine killed the robber-baron, whose son swore revenge and dedicated the rest of his life to learning everything, everything about Wolverine. Over the years he recruited many others with perceived or real grievances against Logan, forming the cult called the Red Right Hand. When a member tried to leave the group, he forced her to smother to death a helpless old woman (Sabretooth's mother, as it turns out). In the modern day the Founder, now an old man, decided to act against Wolverine personally. He and the other members sold their souls to the hell-lord Marduk Kurios, in return for damning Wolverine to Hell and allowing a demon to possess his body. They then let the demon and their bodyguards, the Mongrels, loose on anyone who had ever been kind to Logan, ever (killing John Wraith, Silver Samurai, and temporarily, Mystique). Once Wolverine got out of Hell and back into his body, he chased after the Founder and the Red Right Hand, killing the Mongrels along the way, only to find that the cult had already committed suicide. The Founder left a tape-recorded confession for Wolverine, though, in which he revealed that he never intended Wolverine to die, oh no. He wanted him to win. Why? Because the Mongrels were his long-forgotten illegitimate children. Even though Wolverine defeated his enemies, the bad guy decidedly won.
So, as you can see, the Founder is a true Magnificent Bastard and disgustingly petty, but what I'm not sure about is whether the thing with his dad qualifies as a Freudian Excuse. On the one hand, it's a believable motivation in a sense. On the other, it's made abundantly clear in the story that a.) the father was a horrid man, and b.) the Founder himself aspired to be just as horrible someday.
Any thoughts?
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
Well, we do have Zander Rice (what is up with villains having issues with Wolverine and their parents?).
Honestly...he sounds pretty awful and a bit unique, even. I'll vote for him.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
What makes me want to vote "for" on him is the fact that, in the narration for his flashback (provided by him), he mentioned how much he enjoyed what an evil man his father was. To him, the ability to brutalize others is a sign that a person is "strong."
The arc's really good, by the way, especially if you like Continuity Porn like I do.
edited 22nd Mar '13 4:00:57 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
Foreign Troper
On Green Lantern Examples: Mongul JR and Nekron are already listed on the DC-Subpage. So keep.
Romat-Ru.....how much of the listed crimes are on-screen?
Deathstorm: Rewrite or cut?
Krona: Keep, definitely. He is Vandal Savage on a universal scale.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Romat-ru...sadly none of it's onscreen. Krona is a keep for me.
Deathstorm is an easy cut
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Romat-Ru is one I'd really hate to cut, but his crimes are all described in a text backstory in a Secret Files and Origins supplement. I think the case could be made that this backstory is a valid story unto itself (after all, we don't say books with no pictures can't have CMs), but if not, he'll have to go. He (and all the others) hated having to work for Mongul, too, which may imply a lesser degree of heinousness.
Deathstorm I think should go. He's not all that much different from the other Black Lanterns, he's just the one we see the most. Presumably, the others did or could do just as bad offscreen, and they're all basically Nekron's marionettes, anyway.
edited 22nd Mar '13 4:35:38 PM by HamburgerTime
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
They just hated Mongul because he was a bratty upstart who stormed in and started shouting orders. Not really standards there. I'd prefer if we could take Secret Files as a story unto itself, but...
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
But... what?
I'm not sure if we do that. Honestly, I'd prefer it because this guy is such a vile sack of scum that cutting him would seem an injustice to the trope, but if we can't count it, we can't make an exception.
The standards thing...Romat-ru would have no problems doing what Mongul orders if Sinestro ordered it (or for fun)...it's just that Mongul was an upstart little brat, so I feel safe saying it's not a standards thing
edited 22nd Mar '13 4:46:42 PM by Lightysnake
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Speaking of Zander Rice, move him to X23 YMMV? And geeze, I see why he's mad, but Disproportionate Retribution much?
Why did the Founder want his illegitimate children killed?
EDIT: Maybe mention "for Secret Files, we have..." for Mongul?
edited 22nd Mar '13 4:51:31 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
They were Wolverine's illegitimate kids.
and yeah, put Zander on X-23's YMMV
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Yeah, guy tricked Wolverine into killing his own kids. And they didn't know he was their father, either, so you could argue that they're victims of the Founder, too.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
As for Lantern, I think we can move Nekron from GL YMMV and just have him on Blackest Night YMMV? X23 also has a Zero Context Example...
You know, Zander Rice...reading his Freudian Excuse, I can ALMOST feel sympathy for him. Lighty, you're our comics expert. I moved him BTW.
EDIT: Check my new sig :)
edited 22nd Mar '13 5:01:02 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Rice...reading the story itself...it's impossible to feel sympathy. His sadism towards unrelated parties in Revenge by Proxy and how he tries to have his own son killed is just too much.
I posted a writeup for Mephisto as well.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Thanks. Mephisto to be added tomorrow...nah, screw it, let's do it now.
EDIT: Actually, could you please do it, since you can just edit and copy the post w/ all the mark-up? Much appreciated 
Why does Rice want his own son killed anyway?
edited 22nd Mar '13 5:08:44 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Just means we need to add to it a bit.
Liiike...