During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
About the "loved his sister" bit, he was incapable to kill Kaoru and saved her life out of pure reflex in the final of his fight with Kenshin simply because she remembered his sister.
Azor Ahai
Yes, pretty much. I agree with the entry's description that he was already pretty creepy even prior to his sister's death which set off him being evil, but the way he exists the story makes me question the Complete Monster designation. I don't really think the characters see him as sufficiently loathsome (in contrast with the previous Big Bad Shishio). As a contrast, Enishi's minion, Gein, does seem a good candidate, as even other villains think he's messed up.
edited 3rd May '12 7:59:32 PM by Jordan
Hodor
If a character has even one redeeming quality (such as truly loving someone), that person's not a Complete Monster. If the series indicates that a character can be redeemed (such as being nursed back to sanity), that person is not a Complete Monster. So, from your description, that's two disqualifying strikes against Enishi being a Complete Monster.
I say that he wouldn't fit, so request a lock to stop the edit war, then ask a moderator to remove him using this thread as the justification.
For what it's worth, I think Easily Forgiven and the like shouldn't really matter here anyway. If the character seeks redemption at all, regardless of whether their achieving it is convincing or not, that would automatically disqualify them.
Azor Ahai
I'm not sure I'd necessarily say he "seeks" redemption, but it's implied he gets it. Interestingly, I've heard that there's apparently a sequel novel or something to Monster, wherein Johann (who gets mentioned a lot as the epitome of a Complete Monster) ends up turning to good.
In both cases, it's sort of like after they got their mental issues addressed, they were (to quote the Simpsons) "all murdered out".
In any case though, I would say Enishi doesn't count given his love for his sister and implied Heel–Face Turn post-series.
edited 3rd May '12 9:47:07 PM by Jordan
Hodor
Think of the mooks!
I put in the request for a lock.
This case seems cut and dried. As other folks have noted, the trope isn't 95% Monster. It isn't even 99% Monster. It's Complete Monster. Enishi might be toeing the line, but there's still enough that he isn't complete. I also vote to pull.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
I locked the page and removed the entry pending decision here.
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
How about Pat Napier (The fat, ugly geezer in a towel at the start of the game) From Silent Hill Downpour?
He was a vicious paedophilic serial killer who kidnapped, raped and drowned the protagonist's 10 year old son, and never shows any remorse for doing so. The closest he feels is fear when he's about to die.
Hello, I would like to elect Miss Power from Word Girl for the Complete Monster Western Animation page. Here are the reasons: 1. She comes to Earth, and pretends to be a superhero, and teaches Word Girl her super powers. She also teaches her the power of using mean words. 2. Unlike Word Girl, she openly mocks other villains, and uses their weaknesses against them. Word Girl also picks up on this. 3. She also manipulates the entire town into bullying each other. 4. When Word Girl finds out the truth about her, she gives her a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown, and calls her weak. She even removes her star isignia that was on her chest. 5. She throws her mother (Mrs. Botsford) into jail along with the other villains due to a disagreement they had. 6. And lastly, she crosses the Moral Event Horizon by trying to kill Dr. Two-Brains. She would've succeeded, hadn't Word Girl not intervened. She also felt absolutely no remorse for her actions, and leaves Earth, so that she wouldn't be defeated. Also, unlike the other villains who are more or less Played for Laughs, she is taken very seriously, and because PBS Kids were making programs for the anti-bullying cause, she is a fairly accurate potrayl of a bully.
I'd really hope you'd consider adding her in.
Think of the mooks!
First, do we have a consensus on Enishi? Seems like we do, but it's good to know before saying anything final.
@810 Sounds like a pretty straightforward example. I'm good with that one.
@811 On the other hand, not so much on this one. The only item on that list that really seems to qualify is the last one, and you haven't detailed nearly enough about the would-be victim to make me think that the nominee is beyond redemption. To be honest, even if Dr. Two-Brains is The Messiah, I've seen redemption happen with worse villains. Unless you can provide much more support for the character, I have to vote no.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
My impression was also that we have consensus on Enishi.
.....
This is not popping up in the Complete Monster pages, but I'd like to ask some things before they're asked to be put here... It's about Tekken.
Kazuya Mishima and Heihachi Mishima. Both of them jump off between which one is called Anti-Villain, which one is called Complete Monster. Which is the truth? Both are C Ms or both are not? Or one of them is Anti-Villain? If so, which one?
While we ask of Tekken, may as well ask if Bryan Fury also fits or not.
I say this because the Tekken pages put them as Complete Monster... with no reasoning... I'd like to get some.
edited 7th May '12 12:06:56 AM by ChrisX
Think of the mooks!
First, the easy part - I'll take it that we can safely leave Enishi off. Also, later, I'll have a proposed rewrite for the One Piece entry.
For Tekken... it's been a while since I played it, but I don't recall any examples of Complete Monster in the game. We also don't support zero-context examples for this trope anymore. So unless someone wants to defend it, cut it and cite this thread in the edit reasons.
Also, lest I forget, you did go to the appropriate thread to discuss it.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.Heihachi is specially questionable. His own Complete Monster entry lists "he likes Kuma", with a pothole to Pet the Dog.
Think of the mooks!
To be perfectly honest, I'd have to be reminded of anything evil, period, that Heihachi did. I seem to recall him being a gargantuan Jerkass, and some shades of Corrupt Corporate Executive, but unless I'm forgetting a whole bunch, he didn't do anything full-on evil.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Johan is widely considered to be the poster-boy for Complete Monster, but does he really qualify? He never had a chance to be any thing else, and Another Monster shows us that Johan took that second chance Tenma gave him to be a better man. Plus, he had Dissociative Identity Disorder and one of those identities honestly wanted to stop, shown when he gives money to a prostitute so she can start over.
Think of the mooks!
First off, the page only considers the original medium. I think Another Monster would be its own page.
Second, it doesn't matter whether or not the character had a chance at being something else (that leads into arguments of fate versus destiny that aren't appropriate for the trope). The question is "Is this character X?", not "could this character have been Y instead?"
Third, it doesn't matter whether or not he had Disassociative Identity Disorder or any other mental illness. In fact, mental illness is almost considered a default for all those who actually qualify. The only thing that DID would potentially disqualify would be the particular personality that didn't want to be evil. And even then, that's getting into a debate over psychology that's ill-suited for this forum.
I kind of wish we didn't strike the part about Karma Houdini from the trope description. I know why we did it, but it was useful, I found, for cases like this.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.He didn't give that prostitute money to start over. He gave it to her so she could have her dose.
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Okay, I understand each of those points, but he was still redeemed in the end.
Hello, i have one question: do Beavis and Butthead qualify for Complete Monster status or not? I asking this question because when i went to Beavis And Butthead YMMV page and found entry that states that they were complete monsters. This is how that entry sounds:
- The boys themselves were this in the earlier episodes, being bullies who tortured animals and burned things. However, when they Took A Level In Dumb Ass, they arguably Took a Level in Kindness.
The entry states that they were complete monsters in early episodes. But do they really qualify for this trope? While they did horrible things, their actions were played for laughs and Complete Monster actions CAN'T be played for laughs and while they were meaner in early episodes, they were still stupid, but not as stupid like in later episodes and i don't think that stupidity makes person a Complete Monster. So what do we say, should include them or not?
Lost in Space
Seriously? No. That is massive misuse of the trope and it needs to be killed with prejudice.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
And fire. Especially fire.
Think of the mooks!
@821 If you understand that he wasn't redeemed in Monster, then why try to argue that he wasn't a Complete Monster there?
@822 Yeesh, that's a bad example. Cite this thread in the edit reasons when you cut that.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
There's an edit war going on right now on Rurouni Kenshin- basically, all of the bad things noted about Enishi are true, but it is true he loved his sister. What makes it kind of questionable whether he's a Complete Monster is that he ends up having a total breakdown, after which he's a wreck, but totally "evilled out", and the series is fine with the idea of him being unpunished for his crimes and instead nursed back to sanity by a guy implied to be his birth father.
It isn't an official rule (and it's a problem because of anime/manga use of Easily Forgiven) but I have to say that if the work is ok with a character going unpunished and it's not presented as a Karma Houdini, then they aren't a Complete Monster.
Hodor