Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Speaking on the Lost examples, the former is a Well-Intentioned Extremist who honestly believes that the world off the island is filled with evil people and killed the woman to stop her from taking the children back to that world (and also said Sorry before hand), as well as not wanting anyone from the outside world to know of the island's existence because if people found out about it's power they would seek to horde it for themselves.

The Man In Black also can't qualify due to his excuse of wanting to leave the island he's been trapped on for thousands of years, as well as the circumstances of his death (being beaten near death by his brother and thrown into the Island's power source) transforming him into the Smoke Mosnter people heard so much about. So from his perspective he's been unjustly imprisoned even in death, on the island and wants nothing more than to leave. However since he is unkillable and his Brother's continued existence (as well as that of the ones he chose as possible replacements) binds him to the island, the only escape is literally by getting his brother killed and destroying the island.

Considering that the whole point of LOST is redemption, I really think the only person who might count as a CM from that universe would be Martin Keamy. I'll elaborate when I'm not travelling.

I've removed that entry for Martha Vist Carbine from the Gundam Unicorn YMMV page, PM'd the author, and asked them to come here with an explanation. From what I've gathered, Martha's a totally unsympathetic, manipulative, cold-blooded bitch...who hasn't committed a big enough crime to qualify. If she commits worse crimes, she might cross the line into this trope, but for now I think she needs to stay off.

@6462 Hmm... Warren White strikes me as the intersection of Author Tract and You Monster!. I agree to cut. TC, I think you need to give detail on just why he fails the heinous bar. And since examples are not arguable, God in Preacher would need to be cut.

@6465 I recommend you read Examples Are Not Arguable. If you have to use the word "arguable" for the example, it doesn't actually qualify.

@6479 While I agree on the Family Man and Joshua Wright, I'm actually not convinced on The First of the Fallen. For one, sounds a bit like a God of Evil to me. Second, he actually sounds less bad than the other two examples. More powerful, yet somehow less evil.

@6480 We need more reason to put someone on besides one person saying that they can't think of a reason why they wouldn't count. I know nothing about Lamashtu, so I need a reason as to why they would qualify.

@6487 I'd like to note that, because he employs Jin-E and approves his underling's actions, that Kanryu overshadows Jin-E, and is also really responsible for all of his underling's crimes. So Jin-E would be disqualified for being overshadowed. I would allow Kanryu though.

@6492 First off, you need to actually say the work that Akainu is from - not everyone here immediately recognizes him as a character in One Piece. You also need to actually state his altruistic quality... and be prepared for us to point out that his "dedication to justice" is taken to Knight Templar levels, which would still allow him to qualify (he was all set to kill an ally who he felt was in the way of his vision of "justice," which shows that he takes it way too far).

@6499 Please don't run afoul of Godwin's Law. The only time Nazis should be brought up in context of this discussion is when we are discussing either someone who was explicitly part of the National Socialist party or a character (like the military surplus store owner in Falling Down) that follows some variety of creed that espouses continuation with the ideals of the National Socialist party. Since One Piece lacks a Nazi party, there should be no comparisons to it here.

@6518 We're not discussing Obito until the current arc in Naruto is over. That series has sprung surprisingly noble backstories for plenty of characters multiple times. We should really hold off until we know for certain.

@6536 Actually, one question that I have about Naraku - is Naraku still a gestalt entity of several different souls that act together? Or is it a true merging? Because if it's the former, and the souls can still break off and act independently, I'm inclined to say Naraku should count as a group and thus be cut.

@6546 Yokuba isn't even as heinous as Porky. That alone would disqualify him.

@6547 Well, sounds reasonable for the film adaptation. Though I do have some Fridge Logic questions about her Pragmatic Villainy... that just means I find her stupid, not disqualified.

@6548 Good call, cut.

@6552 I don't remember the film version all that much (though I did read the novel version recently), but considering that King Haggard doesn't really do anything all that evil on-screen, I would vote to cut.

@6563 The one responsible for ordering the atrocity takes the brunt of the credit for the atrocity.

@6574 To be honest, I'm leaning towards cutting the whole thing and having someone come in here to discuss the example, so as to craft something that would actually fit. I hate having to sort through Natter, especially when I don't know the series.

@ Footsteps

The First isn't really a God of Evil, or anything of the sort.Everything he does is by his own initiative. He doesn't really have a good or evil nature, so he's been free to choose from the start. He's also a good example of Evil Is Petty, given how much he goes through just to hurt John. What he did to John's sister is something that really stands out. Luring a purehearted soul to remain in hell by playing to her love of the guy who murdered her, solely to spite her brother. He's just as evil as Wright and the Family Man.

As for Jin-E and Kanryu, while Kanryu is responsible for some of what Jin-E does, Jin-E does plenty by his own accord and continues some rather evil actions after Kanryu is dealt with. I believe both should qualify based on that.

As for Naraku, he's a true merging. All those souls merged permanently into a single being. He can create offshoots, but that's more asexual reproduction.

As far as it goes now, I'll tally the votes soon for Ma-Ma, Azariah Kyras, the Hellblazer examples, Darth Nihilus and Odion, as well as Jin-E and Kanryu to see where we stand on them. I'll wait on Krayt till NJ and I can debate that. Thus far it seems most of these have solid votes in favor.

As I recall, Andrei from Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines was ruled to qualify as well. Was he ever posted?

edited 7th Jan '13 11:34:08 AM by Lightysnake

Sorry, I'll be more specific on Akainu, and this is the last thing I'll say about him for the time being: his altruistic quality is, based on what he says to himself (and would thus have no reason to lie) at Ohara, that he genuinely seems to believe the World Government is the only thing standing between the world and total anarchy/annihilation.

@6545: Okay, I’ll vote yes for Joshua Wright.

@6547: I’m uneasy excluding Ma-Ma simply because there theoretically may be worse villains in future movies. If more movies are made and the heinous standard increases, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. For now, I'll vote yes on her.

@6552: King Haggard sounds more like a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, I’d cut him.

@6574: I agree with Shaoken’s reasons @6576. The Man in Black and his mom should be cut.

@6580: Andrei’s been added to the complete monster videogame sandbox, but not the main page yet.

So I’d like to go over the examples on the Super Robot Wars page to hopefully get that locked or cut and merged soon.

• Aguilla Setme: She’s a good example of The Sociopath, seeing humans as nothing but her research subjects, but her crimes pale in comparison to those of others also on the page. All that she’s listed as doing is altering the memories of some school children. That’s hardly comparable to the mass murders also listed on the page. I vote cut.
• Archibald Grims: Looking at his entry on the character page and his entry on the Super Robot Wars page, it sounds like he counts. Apparently he arranged a terrorist plot to nerve gas a colony, and forced Elzam to bomb the docking bay Archibald held Elzam's wife captive in, in an attempt to thwart Grims’ plot. He’s also a Psycho for Hire who loves killing for the sake of killing. Provided his terrorist attack takes place onscreen, or other similar crimes, I’d think he counts.
• Lubikka Hakinnen: While, like Grims, he kills for the sake of killing but there are no specific instances of mass murder/attempted mass murder to his name in the entry. He did seriously hurt Tytti by killing her family and lover for kicks, but I’m not sure if that’s enough to qualify him. I’m on-the-fence.
• Asakim Dowin: Sounds like a bastard to Setsuko but she’s the only person the entry has him going out of his way to make suffer, and even then it’s not out of sadism but out of a desire to make her kill him (since he’s immortal and can’t die conventionally). According to the character page he seems genuinely friendly to Rand. Also he has two Pet the Dog moments, 1) by leaving Xine a note that tells her to try to live on her own will in order to be happy, and 2) by potentially helping ZEUTH fight the Big Bad in Rand’s path. Though the character entry does acknowledge he may have had other, less selfless, goals in these actions. Due to how much ambiguity surrounds him, a potentially proportionate Freudian Excuse (he’s immortal and wants to die), and he’s only mentioned as being cruel to only one person, I think he should be cut.
• Edel Bernal: The entry’s a stub and says nothing of his deeds. Also, using his voice actor’s experience in voicing another evil person is not evidence for being a Complete Monster. Expand or cut.

edited 7th Jan '13 2:23:33 PM by OccasionalExister

@ Occasional Exister

I have to disagree on Setme. She runs an entire school where she brainwashes kids into killing machines and is shown to be a Mind Rape specialist, who has her students carry out attacks that could lead to massive casualties. She's not a fighter, but that doesn't mean she's not totally vile. She also sends her subjects against their loved ones with a trace of real cold enjoyment.

Keep Grims and Lubikka as well. Lubikka doesn't ONLY kills Tytti's family and Ricardo, he leads violent attacks on civilian populations as well in those instances.

Cut Dowin, and I'll see if I can research the Edel Bernal later.

EDIT: It seems the real Edel Bernal plunges the galaxy into chaos, causing massive scales of chaos and death, solely for its own amusement.

edited 7th Jan '13 2:39:34 PM by Lightysnake

@ 6579

For reasons why Lamashtu would qualify, you can read my post at 6445. Sophia was responding to me, not proposing an example of her own. For the short version, Lamashtu's a baby-eating, pregnant woman murdering, bloodsucking demon from Sumerian/Akkadian myth who also indulges in the poisoning of crops, spreading of disease, and inflicting of nightmares. She's so bad that the Sumerians and Akkadians were willing to invoke another demon, Pazzuzu, in order to get rid of her. You would have pregnant women walking around wearing Pazzuzu amulets in order to keep Lamashtu away. Seeing as Pazzuzu is responsible for drought and famine, something people in a desert society would fear, the fact that he's the preferred option says a lot about Lamashtu.

We have more then enough votes to get rid of Warren White now. I will do so.

On TC from Preacher. There are several potential disqualifying factors. For one thing, TC is very obviously handicapped. I know we've included handicapped characters before, but it's still worth noting. Secondly, TC is subordinate to Jody, who in turn, is subordinate to Marie L'Angel. Most of his murders are done on Jody's orders at Marie's behest, meaning that the moral agency is pretty far removed from TC proper. As for the sex thing, raping farm animals is gross, but it's more an extreme form of animal cruelty then a qualifier for this trope. Killing Jesse's friend to cover it up is bad, of course, but this is a series where one of the "heroes" gets a girl hooked on drugs so she'll forget her boyfriend and sleep with him, the main character is an extreme antihero at best, and where Jody kills Jesse's father in front of him, nails his dog to a fence, and gloats when Jesse finally kills him.

EDIT: Removed Warren White. Did we ever reach a decision about Alexander Luthor Jr.? He's been brought up a time or two now, but we never seem to hit a consensus.

edited 7th Jan '13 3:54:23 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

@6579 I probably should have included which post I was replying to. Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was that given Ambar's description I didn't have any objections for the Lamashtu of Sumerian/Akkadian myth being included as a Complete Monster.

@6583: None of that’s mentioned on Setme’s entry. It only says she alters memories, not Mind Rapes people. Nor are the facts that the school children are really being trained to be Child Soldiers and she sends them out into attacks against civilians mentioned. If she stays, her entry needs to be rewritten because it really doesn’t present her as much of a Complete Monster. Can you give more specific instances about Setme’s crimes? What attacks does she order? Who are the people that she brainwashes into attacking their loved ones? What are the things she does to break Latoonie? They aren’t really elaborated on, the entry just relies on a viewer's presumed familiarity with the series.

Keep in mind it's been a long time since I played Original generations two, but from what I remember...

Setme sends Latooni's 'siblings' from the school along with Grims on missions to take out any and everyone they find. This gets prevented. When one of them, Arado, is saved and joins the good guys, Setme has his best friend and love interest Seolla Mind Raped into seeing Arado as the enemy alone so she'll kill him, constantly does this to the eldest sister of the team, Ouka, to force Ouka to kill the ones she sees as her beloved younger siblings. And as the head of The School (which is a pilot training institution for children and is just as sinister as it sounds), she's responsible for turning all the kids there into child soldiers or cannon fodder for the bad guys.

Just realised that I never did comment on those Hellblazer examples. I don't know about the Family Man, but Wright and The First of the Fallen sound like keepers. Wright especially sounds like an escapee from Berserk.

One more example from Star Wars Legacy I think deserves elaboration Vul Isen

Who Is He? Vul Isen is a sith scientist, and not a particularly high ranking one, at first. He labors under the rather elitist authority of the warriors who bear the title of Darth, but is just as much a Sith as any of them, whose path was that of the scientist. Isen is creative, inquisitive and utterly without conscience. His business is death, and he devotes all his brilliance and creativity towards it. After Krayt orders the extermination of the Mon Calimari, Isen is the one posted to handle the fine details.

What Has He Done? Isen views his work as an intellectual challenge. The first thing he does, after the whole 'put them in work camps' gets too mundane? He studies ancient Sith alchemy so he can create a new bioweapon, based off the old Sith Leviathans, giving it an aquatic bent. The Sea Leviathan hunts down Mon Calimari and sucks their lives out-as well as their souls, imprisoning them within the beast itself in the epitome of an And I Must Scream living death. Isen views this as entirely interesting and appropriate.

When the extermination of the Mon Calimari schedule is sped up, Isen is once again the Sith go-to guy. He develops a toxin for their planet, Dac, that will kill literally every living thing and leave the world a poisoned husk. He succeeds. The heroes evacuate as many of the many, many sentient species off Dac as possible, but the vast majority of the populations die in graphic detail on panel. This earns Isen the title of Butcher of Dac in-universe and makes him the most hated man in the galaxy.

Oh, and he follows it up by devising a new toxin to kill another planet (Utapau) that we see him testing on an innocent native (and it looks painful). He is stopped only seconds before he releases the toxin into Utapau, which would have sealed the world's fateand that of everyone there.

He have any Freudian Excuse or factor to mitigate his evil?

No Freudian Excuse at all. The best you can say about him is, like Tarkin, he's loyal to his empire. Given that a sociopath like Isen wouldn't be welcome anywhere else but the Sith, this isn't really a surprise.

Krayt and Isen are the two I'd consider the real monsters of Legacy, in different ways. Krayt is the visionary and the brutal sith lord.Isen is more calculating and so eager to devise new mental exercises and do his job: his 'mental exercises' and work just involve the deaths of billions of sentients.

edited 7th Jan '13 5:02:33 PM by Lightysnake

Vote for Vul Isen!

I remember him, a definite vote from me.

I doubt anyone wants to chop Isen; I mean, he provides one of the quotes and everything.

Also, does Wyyrlok giving Isen said order to speed up said genocide schedule qualify him, as well?

edited 7th Jan '13 10:29:30 PM by HamburgerTime

Wyyrlok would except he genuinely seems to love his daughter Saarai and even hopes she succeeds him one day. Krayt also outstrips Wyyrlok by a bit as well, especially after his revival.

So 99% Monster in that case.

Pretty much. The reason I think Krayt qualifies is after and before revival, he basically loses anything that makes him redeeming. His love for Xiaan when he was A'Sharad Hett? Love for his father? Gone. His friendship with Wyyrlok? Gone. Any ties to his old self or altruism? Gone. He doesn't even seem to have any affection or loyalty to his Sith Order, either, and he graduates from normal tyrant to someone who believes the galaxy needs to experience death and rebirthand does everything he can to force it to that...even having a plague made to wipe out all Non-sith life on Coruscant, the most heavily populated planet in the galaxy

And even then, beforehand, the Mon Calimari? the Mon Calimari at large hadn't been opposing him any more than any other. Because one Mon Calimari was captured from a rebel battle, Krayt flipped out and had ten percent of the entire species summarily executed before ordering the remaining 90 percent to be steadily eliminated.

Also, on the Inuyasha examples...why I think the Peach Man/Tokajin and Taigokumaru qualify:

Tokajin is a human, not a demon. He's dozens of times worse than most any demon, or any of the bandits we see. His crimes are even worse than the Band of Seven's. He's just a human who wanted power, so he killed and ate his own master to gain his techniques and kept him frozen in living death after. He proceeds to torture and cannibalize hundreds of others after solely out of nothing but appetite and because he enjoys it.

Taigokumaru sticks out from your normal demon as well. Yes, village slaughter is pretty normal in Inuyasha, but his manipulation of his young granddaughter is incredibly heinous, plus the personal level to his crimes? The village was the home of his own daughter in law and one his own son wanted to protect. He also gloats that when his son tried to convince him to leave the humans alone, Taigokumaru murdered him. He mentions this while laughing at his son's wife.

Neither have as much time as Naraku, but both are pretty much pure evil in their own way.

edited 7th Jan '13 11:54:21 PM by Lightysnake

I will also throw my vote in favor of putting Vul Isen based on what I hear about this guy.

Let us take a look at Super Robot Wars subpage:

• Setme: Cut. She fails the heinous standard. Turning kids into killing machines?! Evil Is Petty, Evil Is Petty, Evil Is Petty. Almost all the cartoon villains do that. A true Complete Monster would kill those kids and not turn them into villains. Lightysnake, maybe you concinced Exister, but you haven't convinced me.
• Grims: Keep. This guy sounds like a reall asshole.
• Hakkinnen: Fails the heinous standard compared to Grims. Cut.
• Dowin: Cut.
• Bernal: Elaborate first before I will make any judgement. Just causing chaos in the universe is not that heinous. I am leaning towards cut, but I want to hear some more.

edited 8th Jan '13 6:55:10 AM by Krystoff

Why are you so dead set on Complete Monster characters being a Flat Character? "A true CM would KILL those kids!" how is "Mind raping them into emotionless killing machines and using them to kill others" not meeting the heinous standard? How is mind raping children into soldiers not as heinous as you can get?

And Hakkinnen is from a different continuity and set of games than Archibald Grims. He also does almost everything Archibald does.

Side note, Nintendo announced the next Pokemon games are coming out worldwide in October. Don't know about anyone else, but I'm already marking my calendar for the next argument about a villain from the series being a Complete Monster.

Anyhow, for commentary:

@6580 To be honest... from the description, I'm actually still not finding First of the Fallen to even be as heinous as the other examples. I'm still inclined to cut until such time as more horrible acts are presented (either ones that weren't mentioned yet or future stories).

@6581 Well, you're getting into the argument over whether anarchy would be better than the repression and codified racism that explicitly exists in the One Piece universe. (Honestly, I feel that the corrupt government of the series should be overthrown.) Plus, given how far he goes, Akainu has foregone Well-Intentioned Extremist and has entered Knight Templar duty. Setting out to create the ultimate in oppressive governments is just a different flavor of Complete Monster than the baby-eating anarchist. In fact, Akainu's tyrannical approach is what makes him stand out compared to other villains in the series - he can stand out because he has such a drastically different approach.

In short, order itself is not an altruistic or positive goal, particularly when the character is clearly shown to use such order to oppress and/or kill others.

@6582 Archibald Grims, as things currently stand, is the only one of those I'd keep. If there are arguments on the others, I'll hear them.

@6584 Ah, missed that. So much for suddenly having more time to work on this. Anyhow, to be honest, without specific myths involving specific deeds by Lamashtu, I'm inclined to say no. I don't want a portfolio listing of things a deity is said to do; I want concrete stories.

Along those lines, though, I'm inclined to say we shouldn't include myths and religions in general in this trope, because too many instances are just lists of portfolio actions. Also, the more I think about it, the more "slippery slope" issues we're going to encounter. I mean, I could write up a description of Satan similar to that Lamashtu write-up, based on commonly believed apocrypha, and we already agreed on why Satan shouldn't count.

On TC, to be honest, I don't know why you even brought up the handicapped issue. Evil installed facilities to help out the handicapped be evil ages ago (oddly enough, evil is remarkably equal opportunity). Though the part about operating under orders is reason enough for me to vote to cut TC.

@6589 I don't know... it sounds like Vul is under Krayt's orders and supervision the whole time. Based on that description, I'm inclined to credit Krayt for Vul's deeds.

Well, I think that almost all Complete Monsters are one-dimensional characters or Flat Characters. Hardly you can make a 3-dimensional character a CM, though there certainly are exceptions (Judge Frollo comes to mind). I don't know how is Mind Rape heinous. Almost all the cartoonish villains do that.

Vul Isen might do it under Krayt's order but the thing about him is that he enjoys doing that to the core!

edited 8th Jan '13 8:05:01 AM by Krystoff

Mind Rape is almost always portrayed as a horrifically evil thing. We aren't just talking about brainwashing or playing mind games; if we are, then the trope has decayed.

The reason why a Complete Monster will come across as flat is precisely because they lack motivations that the audience can sympathize with. Given that lack of sympathy is a requirement for the trope, you can't get around this. You can, however, make them dynamic and interesting characters.