During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I feel like Dunn knew the difference, but didn't care. He just wanted a reason to kill.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Apocalypse. Much like Hive, he seemed to have been a Well-Intentioned Extremist with his intentions gone array. Plus, he had a valid point about nuclear weapons he was trying to make and seemed to present an Even Evil Has Standards perspective of the evils of the Nazis and their treatment of Eric.
Trask, though he doesn't qualify, was worse to me because despite what he believed might have been valid points, he was a hypocrite and Shaw had Fantastic Racisim. I barely ended up tentatively approving of Ajax after holding out on him a few months ago.
Lizzid people!
It was obvious that Apocalypse was only motivated by world conquest.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm guessing the whole thing with Auschwitz was to sway Magneto to his side.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I think someone missed that 'manipulative cult leader' thing
Sebastian Shaw was also revolted by the Nazis- only because he viewed their pursuit of the Aryan ideal to be 'ridiculous' when mutants are the real superior species.
RIP Toriyama
Easy ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to EN SABAH NUR
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Wait, are you serious? Did you not hear the part where En Sabah Nur reveals that, after he's killed almost everything on the planet, he plans to use Xavier's mind to basically implant his mind onto anything that survives his assault on the planet to make them worship him as a god? Explain to me how wiping out billions of lives so you can mind control the remaining few to treat you like a god is Well-Intentioned. Go ahead. I'll wait.
And En Sabah Nur's "disgust" at what happened to Magneto is obviously bullcrap. He was manipulating him, just like he was manipulating his other Horsemen: By pretending to be concerned for their plight...which goes out the window when he shrugs off their deaths.
edited 10th Jun '16 7:58:10 AM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
With both my previous conversation and the film itself in mind, to Apocalypse.
Much like Hive, he seemed prepped to take control as opposed to naturally wanting to do so. Come to think of it though, he seemed bluntly more self-involved about his world views instead of Hive's "I only wanted to make it better" philosophy. Yeah, maybe Apocalypse didn't care after all about what was actually best for the world. For those reasons, I'll change to a tentative , but I got to see it again at some point soon.
Anybody else notice how they killed him in the end was pretty similar to how Doom died at the end of Fant4stic?
Like I said, I can't properly write up Lok Sat until August, so anybody who wants to pick up the mantle go right ahead.
I still think Dunn counts, but my is now tentative. Anyone else want to weigh in?
edited 10th Jun '16 8:24:30 AM by futuremoviewriter
Wild Child
Apocalypse. Good to know that Well-Intentioned Extremist nonsense wasn't valid.
To Apocalypse and I was originally thinking of doing the effortpost but Lighty beat me to it. The selling point for me was when he called Archangel "useless" as the latter was dying.
Assuming they make another movie, we may possibly have to keep an eye on Mr. Sinister as a possible qualifier.
I also wonder, why was Film!Stryker removed?
to Machinedramon. His actions are mostly standard villainy imo. However if Milleniummon is brought up I could see him coming....
edited 10th Jun '16 8:19:29 AM by xie323
Loved his wife.
Huh, I guessed I missed that part.
I didn't have all the facts. Even now, I'm still a bit fuzzy on it having seen it only this past Sunday. Anyway, my is no longer tentative.
Saw Through the Looking Glass last Saturday and yeah, no one comes close to counting.
Clearly Apocalypse has enough votes now and will probably get even more.
edited 10th Jun '16 8:29:47 AM by futuremoviewriter
Foreign Troper
To Machinedramon
to Apocalypse, the movie did a very good job at subverting Adaptational Heroism.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Brainiac is one of those who's pretty well-entrenched as a CM. I'd say Joker too, though he's Depending on the Writer.
BTW, I was looking through Complete Monster YMMV Pages, and found this from Crime and Punishment:
- Complete Monster: Arkady Svidrigailov. This guy began with raping and killing a 13-year old girl and didn't get any better. For the Evulz he had Driven to Suicide a faithful servant, killed his caring wife, molested and possibly tried to rape Dunya, and God knows what other atrocities he committed. A crazy, sociopathic nutjob who truly beleives that Evil Feels Good, Svidrigailov could be easily considered the most inhumane and repulsive character of the novel.
edited 10th Jun '16 10:56:02 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@61039
It was less subverting adaptational heroism and more of that never being there in the first place.
As for characters that have to be presented as C Ms for the sake of the narrative I would say Joker, Darkseid, Palpatine, Red Skull and Brainiac, as well as any Yazan clone in Gundam. Even in extreme lighter and softer spin-offs where they aren't C Ms they still appear to be above and beyond other villains in evilness
Thanos is an example that is normally not a CM, but could hypothetically be portrayed as one since the one thing keeping him away from this trope is very threadbare imo, especially if his love for Lady Death is omitted in Infinity War or presented more as obsession. That or Infinity War retools his love for death more into Thanos being a superpowered cult leader that worships Death but never really interacts with her and thinks he himself is doing the universe a favor by killing everyone(most likely with the belief he is perpetuating some sort of cycle will be rewarded by his supposed goddess with the power to create a universe in his own twisted image).
For the latter Magneto, any Char Clone, Lex Luthor, Xanatos and Demona, possibly the Underwoods too unless Frank and Claire does something really heinous.
edited 10th Jun '16 9:01:23 AM by xie323
Re: Apocalypse
He's probably a , but I kinda wish he wasn't. I feel like a little more nuance/humanity would have gone a long way with that character (recent issues of All-New X have been doing some really, really interesting stuff on that front).
Apocalypse.
Speaking about the Joker, in august, his version of the suicide squad will be a candidate.
Most likely is that he will be a Complete Monster, but there may be several reasons that would disqualify him:
- His actions aren't at the level of Lex Luthor.
- Genuinely loves to Harley Quinn.
- Is played for laughs,(Much more than usual) .
- Actually is Jason Todd, or some another Robin that went crazy.
to Scott Dunn.
Well I can guarantee now that last one won't come true.
edited 10th Jun '16 9:54:37 AM by MGD107
Apocalypse
I think I've reserved the proposal for Suicide Squad's Joker... We'll see what happens.
With examples put on a page without going through the thread first, should they always be brought up in here no matter how much the example doesn't qualify?
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Apocalypse. Didn't the marketing state he'd be a WIE?
Psshhh...
There's an example on the Deadpool YMMV page that should be crosswicked if it qualifies:
- Ajax, real name Francis Freeman, is a surprisingly serious villain for this darkly comedic film. The leader of an operation that purports to create superheroes, Francis uses his recruiter to lure in people with nothing to lose before he implants the potential for mutant genetics into them. However, to awaken the mutant gene, Francis subjects them to hideous, continuous torture to produce the necessary stress to awaken it. Wade Wilson himself is eventually placed in a chamber that alters air levels to always make him feel that he is asphyxiating. After this awakens Wade's mutant gene, Francis comments he could fix Wade's ruined looks, but mocks that would be no fun and shuts him back in the device anyways. When Wade escapes, Francis impales him and leaves him to burn alive in the ruins of the lab, along with any other prisoners remaining. The superhero operation is also revealed to be a front: the victims are fitted with collars to turn them into slaves and sold to the highest bidder for the remainder of their lives. When Wade, now Deadpool, is hunting him, Francis tries to lure him out by kidnapping his former girlfriend Vanessa and then locking her in the asphyxiation device right in front of Wade.
edited 10th Jun '16 10:42:45 AM by Josef5678
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes, because examples SHOULD be brought up here first. The ones that aren't are usually zapped (though there are several here). I heard the same. Either they were wrong, or they (thankfully) failed. It is crosswicked (it's at Film P To Z since it's part of the X-Men Film Series).
edited 10th Jun '16 10:53:02 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
at Apocalypse and Woundwort
...It's weird having so many websites and no way to properly display now, lol.