During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
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What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
We are not comparing the two in the first place alright. Alex Zorgen is still a horrible man that needs to have a look in to. While he doesn't profit from drugs, he kidnaps women no matter what age they are sells & auctions them off online to serial killer. We haven't even got to the part where kidnap a women and raped and tortured her for over two decades, not to mention killed his own son, his own flesh and blood, for making one mistake, and shows no remorse or regret about the action!
edited 27th May '15 7:57:19 PM by G-Editor
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Ugh... ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
.
I was just suggesting the comparison.
Oh okay well thanks for the suggestion! Are voting yes for Alex Zorgen, Radomtropper89 from the Fire Nation?
I'll give him a . From what I can tell he does not have the resources of Lucy, but is a bad as he can be.
As for the comparison between Alex Zorgen from criminal minds abd Mr. Jang from Lucy, the two are human traffickers the kidnap people to sell to clients. Also both have no morals and are only care about money. Also both have easily crossed the moral event horizon( Alex sells women to serial killers and Mr. Jang surgically implants highly unstable drugs in the people he kidnaps). Finally, both have an archenemy who happens to be female (Kate for Alex and Lucy for Jang)
edited 27th May '15 8:49:36 PM by G-Editor
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
What, not the movie Lucy, the character Lucy on Criminal Minds, the last trafficker the team took down.
Oh well my bad any who for Zorgen and Lucy, Both were the leaders of human trafficking rings who abducted someone related to investigators closing in on their criminal enterprises (Lucy abducted an FBI agent assisting SSA Andi Swann, while Alex abducted Kate's niece).
edited 27th May '15 9:25:37 PM by G-Editor
Well so far I have 6 for Alex Zorgen so I'm going to start on the write up about him soon
Before I do however I need to know if anyone wants to do a write up about him to. If you guys want to do a write up about him instead of me it's cool. 
edited 27th May '15 9:33:19 PM by G-Editor
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
for Alex Zorgen. Also after watching Taken 3, I think I found another candidate. Which seems fitting, since we're discussing human trafficking. 
SPOILERS AHEAD.
Stuart St. John is a businessman and Arms Dealer who made several deals with Oleg Malankov. After a deal goes wrong, Stuart has Oleg's men kill his wife, Lenore, so he can collect millions of dollars worth of insurance policy and pay back his debt. He then frames Lenore's ex-husband, Bryan Mills, which leads to the FBI constantly hunting him down. Later, after Oleg's men fail to kill Bryan, Bryan interrogates Stuart, who proceeds to tell him that Oleg is responsible for Lenore's murder. Bryan immediately goes after Oleg and murders his entire crew. With Oleg dead and the insurance policy his, Stuart shoots Sam, kidnaps Kim, and tries to flee the country. After Bryan stops and confronts him, he merely gloats to Bryan that he can't kill him without the police arresting him too, and that his prison sentence will most likely be reduced.
Redeeming Qualities / Freudian Excuse?
None. Throughout the movie, Stuart came across as a bit shady, and kind of a Jerkass, but he still showed concern for his step-daughter, and he even openly wept upon seeing his wife's body. But it turns out that in the end, he was just acting so he wouldn't arouse suspicion. And at no point did he try to justify his actions by saying that it was something he had to do. He just did it for his own greed and pettiness.
Are his crimes heinous by the movie's setting?
Well, Taken does revolve around human trafficking. The first one, anyway. And technically, Stuart doesn't directly kill anyone. And while Stuart wasn't involved in anything that terrible (as far as we know), he is the only villain in the series who isn't just some Mook following orders, nor is he a Punch-Clock Villain, an Affably Evil villain, or someone with a Freudian Excuse like Murad Hoxha from the second movie. But he does stand out as being one of the most sleazy characters in all three films who only cares about himself. And (correct me if I'm wrong for anyone else who saw the film), but before Oleg dies, he mentions how the murder of his wife was just a business deal, "like many before her." That just opens a new can of worms.
So what do you guys think? A firm CM, or just a sleazy Jerkass Manipulative Bastard? Personally I think he's one.
edited 27th May '15 11:04:51 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
"In distress", my ass.
I don't know about Stewart. Compared to the human traffickers from the first one, IMO he comes up short in the heinousness department.
All your safe space are belong to Trump
Well as of right now seven people have voted yes on Alex Zorgen so I am going to do a write on him. This is really my first actually write so it might not be perfect.
Criminal Minds: Alex Zorgen, a recurring villain from season 10, runs a human trafficking ring that sells women, regardless of any age, online to serial killers, and other criminals. Prior to creating the online human trafficking ring, he abducted a woman in 1993 named Donna Goldhard, and kept her as a sex slave, repeatedly raping and torturing her for the past 22 years. from one of those rapes they gave birth to a son, named Kyle. In the episode "X" Alex along with his family kidnaps a woman and post her on his auction website where she is sold her to a serial killer. As the season progresses Alex begins stalking the BAU's newest member Kate Callahan to get close to her niece Meg, and her friend, who are both 14 years old. He posses as an attractive high school senior online to gain their trust. Once that was accomplished, he sends his wife and son to kidnap them in the season finale "Hunt". They succeed, but Kyle makes the mistake of letting Meg's friend get away, Alex murders Kyle, his own son without showing any remorse and simply moves on with his plan to sell Meg online to a serial killer. He was later arrested by the BAU, but not before selling her to that serial killer. When they demand him the location of where her captor is keeping Meg, he refuse to cooperate and just taunts Kate, about the things her captor is going to do to her. Having no regard for anyone, including his own family, and only caring about selling women to his online human trafficking ring and making money out of it, Alex Zorgen is a sociopath in its worst form.
Feel free to make comments and edits 
edited 28th May '15 1:32:50 AM by G-Editor
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Any way to trim that?
As for Hatred, I pre-ordered it, so I get to play it tomorrow . Now, according to the developers, no children or pets, so we'll have to see if that's a standard or if it's just not an option.
Fist of the North Star: here.
I just edit that write up there is only 286 word in it now
edited 28th May '15 1:33:21 AM by G-Editor
In one of the trailers (Hatred: Human Shields), he refers to himself as a "fearless, remorseless genocide machine", and acknowledges that the police are "sacrificing their lives to protect the innocent and the weak", so it seems that he has no delusion of what he's doing. He seems to hate humanity for reasons unrelated to any evil deeds we have done.
If he turns out to be a keeper, he will be only the second Player Character to qualify for this trope after Ellen the witch.
jjj
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll work on it this weekend. Oh, I know that. I mean if children aren't even in the game it won't be a standard.
I knew what you meant, I was just throwing that out there.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Messenger from another dimension.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Stuart St. John
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@Nohbody: Hmm...that's a good point. As a standalone film, Stuart would be a CM for Taken 3. But if we're talking about the trilogy altogether, that is still debatable, since he had no part of the human trafficking ring from the original film.
Anyone else feel like voting/sharing opinions?
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
No on Stuart St. John Bad dude but doesn't stack with the villains from the first film.
Stuart St. John
Just for information. Top Dollar sees Myca just as a sexual consort. However he mentions his father twice. When he holds the snowglobe and talks about him he looks a bit sad. Is that a redeeming trait ?
No. Dollar just quotes his dad there, and he 'looks sad' because he always has a sad look as that's Michael Wincott's default bad guy expression.
Anyways...
Taken 3: No for Stuart. Stuart's a 'personal' villain, but he fails the heinous standard hard. The first two films feature a very extensive human trafficking ring, and the ones in charge (Marko and his dad Murad, Patrice St. Clair) are unequivocally worse than Stewart with massive amounts of suffering thanks to them...however, both have loved ones and can't count (Marko and his dad care for one another. Patrice mentions he's 'a father himself' and indicates he loves his kids, so he understands Brian's...irritation at Kim's kidnapping, but business is business).
edited 28th May '15 9:32:03 AM by Lightysnake
How would you compare Alex Zorgen to Lucy, both run Trafficking Rings.
edited 27th May '15 7:31:50 PM by randomtroper89