During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Think of the mooks!
Alright, what do we have today...
@3415 The arguments against Von Karma are fair, and he was the one I went back and forth about when writing my comments. I still lean towards keeping him, but I could easily see cutting him.
I'm also inclined to still cut Ghetsis, particularly as I find folks who leap all over the Japanese release tend to have their views a bit skewed on that actually happens in games. At any rate, if I do decide to include Ghetsis after running through Black and White 2, we can add him back in later.
@3416 Removing a chip responsible for personality portions of an AI is lobotomizing them, effectively. The only way to do that to a human would be to remove chunks of their brain, which is a lobotomy (okay, technically, a lobotomy is removing specifically the connections to the frontal lobe of the brain, but I didn't really want to confuse the issue by discussing a lobectomy). I'm inclined to cut SHODAN because she is only evil because of what that hacker did to her. Also, based on what you said about Geld, I support a cut.
@3423 Someone has obviously confused We Have Reserves with "automatic Complete Monster". Terrible person, but not qualified. Cut.
@3427 Really, you're complaining that we have standards that are too high? I'm half-tempted to change my signature to reflect that - that sounds like a reason to be proud.
Also, I really enjoy that you're trying to bring up Yakone again... because I even found the post (@1248) where I made it clear that the matter was settled and should be dropped.
To be perfectly frank, Manwiththe Plan, you have demonstrated continuous problems with understanding the Complete Monster trope and its cleanup. Your name was ringing in my head, so I checked - there are at least three different instances (Ghetsis from Pokemon Black And White, Yakone from Avatar The Legend Of Korra, and Katejina Loos of Mobile Suit Victory Gundam) where you were not getting it.
The fact that we kept dealing with these questions is why an FAQ was written and put in the first post. Many of the issues with your arguments are addressed there, including: that you have to hit a certain level of baseline malevolence to qualify, that you must be completely devoid of positive qualities, and that the actions must be on-screen. I ask that you read carefully over that FAQ.
Yes, we've made our standards high and strict. Considering that said standards are why we've clarified this trope, this thread becoming one of the models for how Special Efforts threads should go, and finally getting folks to stop regularly calling for cutting this trope, we make no apologies.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Lost in Space
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Manwiththeplan, that last line of yours makes me question whether we want you as a participant in this thread. You're already suspended wiki-side for adding a CM back that was removed. I'm afraid this is going to have to serve as a final warning: cut out the "decay of the wiki" bullcrap, or leave.
edited 26th Sep '12 9:13:33 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Looking over my entry for Ulcis, I don't think there really is a way to spoiler it effectively, without covering up the entire description prior to talking about his daughter. Assuming that the reader has any familiarity with the book (as in, has read the first couple of chapters) the description of a guy who lives in the abyss and is responsible for the way Deepgate is set up is instantly going to say "Ulcis" because there's only one guy who's done all that. I suppose I could spoiler not only his name, but the series' he's from, and change all references to Ayen, Calis and Deepgate to the goddess of light and life, his Herald, and the city. That might work, but I'm not sure that it wouldn't weaken the entry.
You know, this clean up is actually being done to prevent trope decay. The fact that after months of doing it we still have this many subpages (including subpages for specific works) would indicate that our standards aren't, in fact, too strict. Look at it this way—if you can't convince a majority of the forum that your example counts, maybe they just aren't that bad.
edited 26th Sep '12 9:32:27 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I am starting to have brony99 flashbacks seeing Manwiththeplans attitude.
edited 26th Sep '12 9:31:02 AM by Krystoff
Don't even go there, please. That was a nightmare that does not need to be referenced ever again. If you see a Single-Issue Wonk, just call them that.
Okay, I am sorry.
Reading CM Disney thread (that was made before I became a contributor) I saw that Man With The Plan said that CM is simply serious evil beyond redemption even though, it is way more than just that. He considered Syndrome and Hopper C Ms (both of who we disqualified long ago already). I think, all he needs though is better understanding of this trope.
edited 26th Sep '12 9:36:09 AM by Krystoff
No problem.
@ Chaotic Queen, I'm glad you mentioned Kazuo Kiriyama. I saw that he's listed under YMMV.Battle Royale, but not under Monster.Film. It's time to bring him into discussion.
In the Manga and Novel versions of Battle Royale, Kiriyama has the excuse of being partially lobotomized in a car accident. (in utero for the novel, as a child for the manga). So it's not his fault that he doesn't see the difference between painting a portrait, playing the violin, or killing his class mates. In fact, he even gets a Death Equals Redemption moment in the manga, combined with Death Equals Emotion. Besides, he had no choice but to kill half the class of he wanted to get off the island alive, just like everyone else.
Now, the film version of Kiriyama is definitely a Complete Monster. He has no backstory about losing his emotions. In fact, not only does he still have his emotions, he actually takes sadistic glee in murdering the other kids. He even gives Shuya a Psychotic Smirk when shooting him in the chest does nothing thanks to his vest. Finally, Kiriyama is not a member of the class, he willingly signed up for fun.
Here's the syncher. His death in the novel is treated like another senseless death, just getting shot in the head twice. His death the manga is tragic, getting shot in the head and neck but not dying instantly, and being forced to feel every emotion he's suppressed since childhood. In the film? A fanfare plays as his head gets blown off. I say film!Kiriyama counts bigtime.
The Wanderer
brony99?
Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.
Lost in Space
Let's not talk about departed tropers, please. Just know that we've had to ban some people who didn't get it.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Well... requesting lock on Monster.Pokemon now...
I now go by Graf von Tirol.
Here is my attempt at creating a sensibly spoilered entry for Ulcis. For those tropers who haven't seen my original write-up, it can be found on page 136.
Ulcis, the god of chains, in Scar Night. After rebelling against his mother, the goddess of light and life, and being flung to earth, he takes up residence in a seemingly bottomless abyss. Using his Herald, as his representative, he gathers an army of followers and orders them to construct a city atop of his abyss, promising salvation and a chance at reclaiming Heaven from his mother to all those who die in his service. This results in the creation of an entire culture of people who dedicate their lives to waiting to die, and the city has a high suicide rate, and a total lack of anything approaching an appreciation for life. This is not the bad part. The bad part is that the bastard is lying. He has no interest in reclaiming Heaven (he'd much rather Take Over the World) and the souls that are sent to him are instead devoured by he and his undead horde of angels. And that's without getting into his treatment of his daughter. Having found an attractive corpse, he reanimated her, raped her, and then impregnated her, keeping her alive so that he might enjoy her suffering. When his daughter's birth resulting in the woman dying again and being released from her agony he tried to hang the child from one of the city's foundation chains. When the girl chewed through the rope, he recaptured her, abused her, and had her gangraped by his undead, gloating that there was no pont in taking her soul becuase by the end, there wasn't one left. When he encounters his daughter again (her having since become an amnesiac Serial Killer) he gloatingly informs her of what happened to her, forces her to recall it, than indicates that all of his soldiers remember her and would love to do it again. "They remember you. My little Rebecca. My little carnival freak."
Think of the mooks!
I don't like spoilering the name of the series... that also feels like we're making a useless entry.
To be honest, I'm tempted to say that we should petition folks to make Complete Monster into a All spoilers are unmarked trope, with that warning on every page. Of course, I'm fairly anti-spoiler, so keep that recommendation in mind.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
True, true.
As a side note, I have added the page to the Spoilered Rotten index due to the high probability of spoilers given how much we have to explain why a character qualifies which means giving away plot points. Is this cool with you?
Think of the mooks!
@3443 While I sincerely hope that we can add Complete Monster to Spoilered Rotten, that's the kind of thing that needs to be discussed with multiple folks first. I'd like other opinions, especially mod opinions, before we make such a move.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Lost in Space
It strikes me that proper discussion of a CM would need to be spoilers-off. If you're going to read a work to the point where you're looking at the list of CMs in it, then you are past the point where spoilers matter.
Also, you should never, ever, EVER spoiler tag the name of a work. Never ever.
edited 26th Sep '12 12:26:07 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"out of note, i removed Ghetsis of YMMV.Pokemon Black 2 And White 2... and it was put again already.
Think of the mooks!
With a rather histrionic edit reason, I see. I'm going to take this one to Ask The Tropers.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Lost in Space
Removed it again with a mod note. Incidentally, did we ever clean up the YMMV.World Of Warcraft CM list? It's really bad on that page. I'm scrubbing some of the obvious nonexamples now.
Here's a copy of it:
- Complete Monster: Quite a few villains qualify, although overall most of them tend to be Anti Villains.
- Loken from Wrath of the Lich King murders his sister in law and frames his brother's friends for it, causing a needless war, warps his brother's dragon into a monstrosity, and tries to brainwash Thorim.
- Apparently, the curse that comes with wielding the blade Frostmourne ultimately turns a person into this. As shown by the below quote:
- "An individual who wields Frostmourne will not part with it willingly. Over time the person will go from good to neutral and finally to evil. A non-undead evil wielder will then become undead. Finally the sword is able to suck the being's soul into the sword."
- Chargla Razorflank sells her own people to the Scourge.
- Gul'dan(despite being Faux Affably Evil) who voluntarily corrupted his people into a bloodthirsty horde which he secretly controls, planned the genocide of the Draenei and brought the Orcs into Azeroth so they could trigger two wars. He also created Garona as a "breeding experiment" between an Orc soldier and a female Draenei prisoner, after that she was magically aged, tortured and mind controlled into becoming his personal assassin. Finally, he betrays the Horde to follow his own ends of achieving power.
- Kael'thas gets changed into this in The Burning Crusade. He becomes a power hungry lunatic who seeks to sacrifice an innocent girl in order to bring his master Kil'jaeden into the world, who incidentally is the one who gave the order for the destruction of Kael'thas's home (well not him directly, but he and Archimonde would have certainly authorized it and he DID create the Scourge for use against Azeroth).
- Deathwing is an unrepentant mass murderer, who coldly murdered most of his and the blue flight and who covertly helped the Orcs gain control over his rival, Alexstrasza, who he kept as his unwilling consort for a time. His act of entering the world (though admittedly rather awesome) kills countless innocents and causes almost incalculable environmental damage, and he has a genocidal hatred of anyone who isn't a black dragon (and considering the twilight flight even they may be expendable eventually).
- Worst of all are the Old Gods. They have caused quite a few atrocities in Azeroth's history (they corrupted Deathwing and in turn are indirectly responsible for all of his crimes, and in turn the Nexus War), and seem to be intent on destroying the world solely to create chaos.
- It technically depends on how you view them. In fact, they were around on Azeroth even before the Titans arrived, and arguably are more subject to Blue-and-Orange Morality rather than this trope, especially when you consider what they were based on. Still not pleasant, by any means, but that's Eldritch Abominations for you.
- Sargeras and Archimonde are both heartless lunatics who love killing things and who have destroyed countless worlds.
- Depending on how you view him Gallywix may qualify. And for good reason, he is a callous Jerkass whose crimes include: selling the player and others into slavery after he made them give up their life savings, leaving the goblins behind to take over Azshara, enslaving the goblins in a mine called the Gallywix Reeducation Cavern, and employing abusive hobgoblin slavemasters. He was even attempted at a last-ditch attempt to kill Thrall (right before he was re-appointed leader). Constantly taunting you in the second half of the starting experience doesn't help matters either. There's even a Goblin NPC who calls him a monster.
- Magatha Grimtotem, who leads the Grimtotems, and who wants eradicate the "lesser races" from Kalimdor and retake the long lost tauren ancestral holdings. And in Cataclysm, she rigs the duel between Garrosh and Cairne by poisoning Garrosh's axe which caused Garrosh to easily cripple, and kill Cairne.
- Quite possibly Garrosh Hellscream in Mists of Pandaria. He essentially sacrifices a considerable number of his troops to maximize Alliance casualties by detonating a mana bomb on Theramore, orders (or at least allows) dissidents to be tortured and killed, and threatens the member races with retribution if they attempt to oppose him. No one is happy with what he is doing, and the Horde only goes along out of fear of retribution.
- Loken: Generic villain, no motivation established beyond having been corrupted by Old Gods. Fails the heinous (generic villainy) and moral agency (mind controlled) tests.
- Frostmourne's curse: Inapplicable as it's not a person, and it's specifically mind control of a previously good person. Fail.
- Chargla Razorflank: Not enough information to declare her a CM.
- Gul'dan: Probably applicable. He's certainly one of the worse villains in Warcraft lore and one of the few to have voluntarily chosen his fate.
- Kael'thas: Well-Intentioned Extremist, disqualified automatically.
- Deathwing: Tormented and corrupted by the Old Gods, fails moral agency test.
- Old Gods: As faceless agents of chaos, it is not possible to judge them by human morality. Blue-and-Orange Morality = not a CM.
- Sargeras: He's the Bigger Bad, but he was given a justification for turning to evil in the series' backstory and he was good at one point. Fail.
- Archimonde: Generic doomsday villain, no sale.
- Gallywix: Undecided on this one. Slavery is bad, yes, and so is his mindless descent into materialism, but he's presented as hilariously pathetic more than monstrous.
- Magatha Grimtotem: Sounds like a Well-Intentioned Extremist, no sale.
- Garrosh Hellscream: Invalid for the reasons above: we have insufficient information about his motivations.
edited 26th Sep '12 12:52:53 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Think of the mooks!
Actually, I think we were just worried about cleaning up the sandbox for Video Games, with the idea being that we'd swap in that once it was done. There are no World Of Warcraft examples in the sandbox as of now.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
I'm going to have the non-spoilered version put on the literature subpage then. Unless anybody has an objection.
You mean 5.3 or 5.4. And it is definitely too early to add Garrosh.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"