Subjective Trope Deletion

But does taking it off the work page and slapping it on a related link really do anything?

Yes, it puts the stuff many don't care about where they don't have to see it. Those that do want that stuff can still see it, with one simple little click.

edited 4th Oct '10 1:53:04 AM by Nohbody

Not only that, but it's gonna really helps organise the pages. Most of the time what I'm most intrested in is the subjective tropes, so all I'll need to do is go on the subjetive tropes page instead of wading through the main page. I love all the seperate sections, great fun

Need some elaboration on Arc Welding.

Besides the lack of Word of God, what makes it subjective? It is still about the arc(s)/episodes(s)/moment(s) which welds the previously (seemingly) unrelated or barely related stuff together for story reasons, whatever it was intentional from the start or not.

Edit: I think we need to change the banners to say that subjective tropes should also go to the work's respective subjective subpages.

edited 4th Oct '10 7:21:48 AM by Shinr

Do we put the Did Not Do Research on the Subjective page?

edited 4th Oct '10 10:05:10 AM by Deboss

I don't think so, that's based around facts rather than opinions, so it's not very subjective.

Also that is one awesome ass.

Well, we're not supposed to put them on the main page, and some of us like using them for drinking games.

If I could thread weld: Unfortunate Implications? Not in terms of what Report Siht sees as offensive but where there was an actual issue?

could the "audience reaction" banner be added to The Scrappy and its subtropes, then? (i think it's the "audience reaction" one? now we have so many banners i don't even know which one goes where...). i would like to have some justification before i start taking out examples from work pages.

Is there a reason for You Fail Indexes Forever and its subtropes having the "opinion" banner? They seem quite not-opiniony.

It devolves into pedantry and natter.

I guess the best way of looking at it is that the facts themselves aren't subjective, but how much this matters and whether we think it was intentional is.

The Scrappy doesn't have the banner because it's sometimes subjective, sometimes pretty much objective (committing sado-masochistic hippophiliac necrophilia here, but the troper namer and Jar Jar Binks are examples of the latter)

I guess the best way of looking at it is that the facts themselves aren't subjective, but how much this matters and whether we think it was intentional is.

Erm, that's a terrible way of looking at it. Regardless of intent or whether you think it matters, an error is still an error; maybe it's an inconsequential error, but that just means it shouldn't matter to anyone else that it's being noted. There's nothing subjective about You Fail Indexes Forever, given examples are typically based on objective information (this is what the work says, this is what reality says, notice the two are not the same: there's nothing subjective about that, as the data exists independantly of any specific person); it's also not listed under Subjectives, so I'm not entirely sure why it has the banner; the You Fails never had a subjective trope banner.

Trying to use "subjective" as a universal label for tropes that attract natter even if they are not subjective is rather dishonest in terms of labelling. The You Fail X Forever tropes are a problem because of their names sounding like they're attacking the work's creators, not because of the content of examples; when a trope says a work has failed, fans are naturally going to try to defend against what appears to be allegation instead of documentation. The You Fail X Forever tropes are basically just aspects of Hollywood Science (and engineering, and so on) in action, and perfectly legitimate (albeit badly-named) tropes. With less inflammatory names, they'd be no more natter bait than tropes like Hollywood Tactics or Worst Aid (the same as any of them, but for tactics and first aid respectively) are.

To be honest, I find this whole banner thing a black / white solution to an issue that's mainly shades of grey. A lot of supposedly "subjective" examples consist of objective data. For example, many examples of Scrappy Mechanic or That One Level describe the objective particulars of why it is considered such, and therefore aren't solely based on opinion as the banners claim; in addition, neither of those tropes actually tend to cause much in the way of natter or edit warring on the pages I've seen them in.

I think the real problem here is the labelling; many tropes with subjective aspects (formerly the purpose of the Subjective Tropes index) are being moved out of the Subjectives index because it is now A Bad Place. Perhaps the new subjective banner belongs on the more extreme and troublesome pages, but in many cases the old banner would be a better and more accurate choice than the new one, and the old Subjective Tropes index ("opinions are an aspect of this, but not all of this") a better place than the all-or-nothing Subjective index ("this is entirely opinion").

edited 4th Oct '10 10:56:34 PM by Evilest_Tim

^ I knew I forgot something. Thanks, Tim.

It seems this topic's bringing up as many issues as it's putting down. Not trying to be rude, just observing.

"The Scrappy doesn't have the banner because it's sometimes subjective, sometimes pretty much objective"

i know. i asked about those exceptions a few pages back. i'm more wondering about all the other examples that apparently are not exceptions and that i'm likely to get chewed over if i delete them without something to back me up. so should these banners go on trope pages because they majority of the examples are subjective, or stay out of pages because a few exceptions are somewhat more objective? what's the rule?

as far as You Fail Indexes Forever goes, i'm completely in agreement with Evilest Tim— those tropes are objective. they're just natter magnets. wasn't there going to be a banner for natter magnet pages? (AFAIR, there would be one for sujectives, one for natter magnet and one for flame bait... right?)

edited 5th Oct '10 6:22:28 AM by carla

I do think The Scrappy is subjective I personally think that Kanako from Love Hina was Saved From The Scrap Heap after her intro but that's not how everyone else sees it sadly.

edited 5th Oct '10 6:28:16 AM by Raso

It seems some pages got the "based on opinion" banner while others got the "based on audience reaction" banner.

Is there a concrete definition of the difference between a subjective and an audience reaction? Is there going to be a reaction namespace, or is the "subjective" namespace going to be the "reaction" namespace? There are subtle differences there, but also huge overlap.

This can definitely push tropes to become more well-defined. For example, Black-and-White Morality could have easily been written as an audience reaction, but as it's defined now it seems there are pretty concrete ways to tell whether a work falls under this or not.

Are we going to move Audience Reaction Tropes to Audience Reactions?

edited 5th Oct '10 2:12:28 PM by TripleElation

Is there an index for the Subjective namespace? I see the pages are not being autoindexed, is there someplace I can put it manually?

Edit: nevermind. Eddie will have to gin one up, I guess. Autoindexing seems like the simplest way to go.

edited 6th Oct '10 8:43:53 AM by Fighteer

Subjectives

I put The Scrappy on there.

A Subjective requires a decision from the reader/watcher that may be different from another reader's. It is usually something about a matter of degree. Horrible is a degree of Bad, for example. Somebody else may even have the thing on a degrees of Good scale in their head. Subjective. About an individual's thoughts and feelings.

Audience reactions are about things the audience does. Boo, applaud, spew chunks, post rants on the internet, send in fan mail, stalk the director to throw paint on this windshield ... you get the picture.

Of course, fan activity arises from what the fans think — or more importantly, what they feel — so a subjective is somewhere at the root of a reaction, but it isn't the action itself.

edited 6th Oct '10 8:54:03 AM by FastEddie

Eddie, we were trying to index the Subjectives namespace, the one attached to works articles. We already have Subjective Tropes as an index of tropes.

No you don't. Click this: Subjective Tropes.

I'll put together an autoindex for things placed in the Subjectives namespace.

thanks, boss! i imagine most of the other subtropes in the Scrappy Index should have the banner as well? (sorry i'm being so annoying, it's just that the first page i was going to work on turned out to have an Ethnic Scrappy example and it gave me pause).

Subjectives Index now exists. I'll hook up an navpath for it later t'night.

No, it's cool, carla. This is how we chase down the things that have to be done.

... right, because they aren't "tropes". This new learning amazes me, even though I advocated it.