Character pronoun and identity discussion

It's not an "I do not like and you like." It's an "I do not think it's as clear as you do."

I'm talking about all endings and multiple languages, while you're^note That's the collective "you" talking about one in English. That creates a clear divide between our positions.

You're asserting that the ending only makes Bridget canonically trans in English, which is clearly not true.

Even aside from the text of the game itself, Daisuke Ishiwatari is literally making statements with clear word swaps (going from he to she) to make it clear that this is a Coming-Out Story.

Unrelated to what I said: Here's another trans person with more energy giving some thoughts on Bridget's status as a trans icon (NB: The post is two days old, so it misses the more recent developments).

Edited by Bisected8 on Aug 10th 2022 at 12:23:48 PM

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer

"Multiple languages" then what does the Korean dub say about Bridget?

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

Look, you're trying to pick holes and suggest ambiguity where there is none (the twitter thread I linked in my first post in this thread addressed the very argument you're making).

As of her last appearance (and character bio in Strive), her village has accepted that she was a guy, and the superstition (that twin boys are cursed) was bunk; while it's a rather contrived situation, she's very much in the position of any other trans girl wanting to come out (with the added baggage potentially confirms to the superstition she's worked so hard to fight, since she is indeed a girl).

You are correct that otokonoko are indeed a feature of Japanese culture, but your assertions that Bridget must be one are flawed.

While you're entitled to your opinion, your interpretation that she's somehow caved into pressure to present femme is also flawed (and also a transphobic trope that's used to try and forcefully detransition trans people IRL). She's been accepted as a man by her village, and can stop presenting as a girl any time she wants (indeed, her work as a bounty hunter means she doesn't even need to worry about what her village thinks).

Edited by Bisected8 on Aug 10th 2022 at 4:32:43 PM

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer

Bridget seems to be unambiguously female if her in-game bio uses feminine pronouns.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

The counter-argument of "Bridget is not transwoman" feels like mental gymnastics due to how it changes.

• "It is all localization fault!" When the Japanese Arcade Mode is pretty much the same.
• "Bridget calling themself a girl happened in the bad ending!", implying that the Flawless ending contradicts the normal end, or that it invalidates it.
• "The Japanese text has different meaning!", like Japanese text is as strict in meaning as English text is.

There are also some who claim that this is a retcon, even though the development in Strive doesn't change Bridget's previous appearances (for example, the image in Unsettling Gender-Reveal is still perfectly valid, even if it might be Fair for Its Day).

Guilty Gear isn't even stranger to challenging gender norms with other characters. Testament was always designed to be an "androgynous goth star" like Marilyn Mason, possibly being nonbinary due to their transformation into a Gear, but it isn't until Strive that this becomes a prominent feature of them. One of Baiken's two endings in XX has her submitting into bloodlust to the point that when Ky confronts Baiken, Baiken laughs at him calling them a "woman". Of course this is not meant to be the "canon" ending for Baiken, and Xrd has her becoming more feminine in appearance. Venom has a homosexual crush on Zato-1, and Goldlewis' dialogue in Bridget's Arcade Mode sounds like he might be closeted gay. Bridget was definitely conceived as being "boy who dressed up as a girl" to lighten up the roster, but world has changed since XX came out in 2002, and it seems like they decided that the best way to handle Bridget was to turn her into a transwoman.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

If official media uses female pronouns, just go with that.

Yep in agreement. Female pronouns seem to be the correct choice.

Edited by miraculous on Aug 10th 2022 at 10:16:04 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

So Bridget's fine as she is? I'd like to move on frankly.

Character Specific Page cleanup

I mean, technically we still probably need a crowner since just because the discussion leans one way doesn't mean the consensus of the wiki in general will agree (Snapdragon's situation shows how volatile these things can be if there's any chance of ambiguity at all).

FWIW I've been on the side of "She/Her" since I read the first post, but admittedly I know little about Japanese pronouns and am still holding out for the possibility that there really is a localization difference that matters. That doesn't mean that if the vote happened right this second I wouldn't vote She/Her, just that I'm willing to hear more evidence if such a thing is possible and necessary.

(Also, move onto what? Is there another character you want to cover or do you just want to leave the conversation, because like, if you're getting sick of this you don't have to stick around the whole time. Nobody would blame you if you decided to dip.)

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 10th 2022 at 1:57:05 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Move on as in accept that the character is she/her. Not only because the game makes it explicit but also so that we can finally shut down a lot of the ignorant/bad faith arguments around this particular character.

Character Specific Page cleanup

Which again we need a crowner to do, we can't just declare consensus with a handful of people on a thread and the only person who disagreed being thumped. Like, these things can't be rushed especially with how controversial these things can be. (Not that they should be controversial, but like... ya know.)

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

If nothing else a proper Crowner offers something specific to point to when the subject comes up again later.

When we are talking about a crowner, we mean a general one on how to handle character pronouns and identities?

Macron's notes

No? I mean a crowner for Bridget. These things are just going to have to be decided on a case by case basis; as the results of the Snapdragon thread proved, precedent doesn't really mean much if another case gives us reason to break it.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 10th 2022 at 3:07:48 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I figured but I wasn't sure because I thought it would be too early to make a crowner as the announcement regarding Bridget was made a few days ago. I rather not have a crowner but since this is something that causing conflict on the wiki I guess we can come up with one.

Macron's notes

I agree it's too early, lol, I'm only saying we need a crowner because people are starting to push for consensus after a short time. I'm not saying it has to happen now, just that it has to happen.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

i still think a general policy crowner regarding localization pronouns would be useful.

I know nothing about the Bridget situation (agree with the folks saying she's a trans woman based on the thread) but I'll throw another curveball into the mix, been trying to get an up/down answer to this one for a while. This is where the pronoun question intersects with Handling Spoilers IMHO.

Topa on The Orville was assigned female at birth but then forcibly given an Easy Sex Change because she's from a species of He Man Woman Haters, but in a mid-season 3 episode she turns out to be experiencing gender dysphoria as a result and transitions (detransitions?) back to female in "A Tale of Two Topas". Up to that episode the series refers to her in the masculine, and starting about the middle of the episode they switch to female.

I can understand using he/him on Recap pages for preceding episodes, but elsewhere such as on the main page and other subpages, should we batch replace every reference to Topa as male, or try to follow the chronology, or what?

Edited by StarSword on Aug 10th 2022 at 4:06:18 AM

No offense to you Star, and I agree it's a situation that needs to be addressed, but to keep this thread from getting too cluttered we're trying to focus on one character at a time. When the Bridget discussion is resolved we can tackle your case, though.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 10th 2022 at 4:09:33 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I almost feel like we don't want a crowner right because of how emotionally charged this issue is and how whenever we do crowners for topics like this one they get hijacked with weird options

But of course we'll have to do a crowner at some point just to settle this issue

New theme music also a box

The Snapdragon one wasn't hijacked tho... That one was a mess, but for a different reason.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 10th 2022 at 4:17:09 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Snapdragon one was difficult because it was never confirmed in the show itself but by Word of God on Twitter,at least it's clearer here

New theme music also a box

Well, yeah. But since you said the crowner could be hijacked I'm just pointing out that there's not much reason to think that.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 10th 2022 at 4:32:38 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness