Jerks Are Worse Than Cleanup Threads

Yes, that's the better trope. And this one does seem like a sub-trope.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Here's something in the Comic Book folder.

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• J. Jonah Jameson is nominally not a villain, but he has done more damage to Spider-Man on a regular basis that he is considered part of his Rogues Gallery. He is solely responsible for Spidey's Hero with Bad Publicity image by always branding him as a menace and he stubbornly refuses to believe that he's really one of the good guys, let alone be grateful, no matter how many times Spider-Man has saved the world and Jameson's life many times over.

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The entry doesn't say if he's hated more than the villains, just that he's considered on par with them enough to be a part of the Rogues Gallery. I've never read a comic book in my life,^* unless manga counts and I'm not about to start, so I can't comment on it's validity.

By the way, should this thread be moved to Long Term Projects? I think misuse is going to be so common that cleanup work will be necessary forever, and Short Term is for projects expected to be finite.

Edited by Kevjro7 on Jan 29th 2021 at 9:53:55 AM

Er, why would it last forever? If we resolve all the current issues and more pop up, sure, maybe, but we can't assume that'll be the case.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

JJ is easily one of the most popular spiderman characters like ever so that seems misuse.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

YMMV items are among the most misused tropes or audience reactions on the entire website. Since Jerks Are Worse Than Villains is already undergoing misuse less than a month after launch, it's very likely that misuse will continue in the future. But if the misuse does end up stopping after we resolve all the issues, the cleanup work might be short enough to stay here, but I don't think that'll be the case.

Like I said, we need to focus on the issues we have currently and if the problem continues we can look at moving it to Long Term, but for now there's not much point in doing so. This was intended to be a fast-paced "find the issues and fix them" thread, not a slow cleanup thread. I'm not saying it has to be that way, but that was my intention when I made it- to go through all the examples, find the ones that need fixing, and fix them, but not spend ages doing so.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 30th 2021 at 1:13:27 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

From the Video Game folder.

• Persona 5: Starter Villain Suguru Kamoshida is often reviled by fans far more than the game's final target, despite the fact that his crimes affect only a single high school, while the latter runs a nation-wide political conspiracy that engages in everything from court manipulation and drug trafficking to assassination and causing mass-transit "accidents." Kamoshida regularly physically abuses the male members of the volleyball team he coaches, and sexually abuses the female members, to the point where one of them attempts to commit suicide because of it. A teacher abusing the power he has over his students is something that the average person can visualize happening to them, or maybe even experienced themselves when they were a student.

The guy is a literal rapist. Not to mention he's listed as a Complete Monster. He fits Realism-Induced Horror better much like Umbridge.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Jan 31st 2021 at 3:08:36 PM

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

Yup, we should move it.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

He's already on the page, so I'm gonna cut this example.

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

There is this entry on the page:

• In Disney's animated Mulan, Chi-Fu is such a misogynistic, obnoxious, Obstructive Bureaucrat that you would end up hating him more than the actual villain (who shows zero misogyny towards Mulan). He is so pompous and ungrateful that even in-universe, nobody can stand him.

I have to admit, I've always interpreted Chi-Fu as a full-blown antagonist rather than simply a jerkass (which he also is). Antagonists and villains aren't the same thing. Looking at the way his character sheet has been troped, he's had both villain and jerkass tropes applied to him. If I remember rightly, there's not exactly equal screentime going on where the villains and Chi-Fu are concerned so Chi-Fu is the primary antagonist of the Disney film even though he's not the show's villain.

So, is he an example or is he misuse?

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And another grey zone:

• Aliens has two antagonists, the predatory Xenomorphs and the greedy and weak Weyland-Yutani representative Burke. The Xenomorphs are terrifyingly beloved by the fans, while Burke is so hated even actor Paul Reiser's mother was pleased when he was killed in the film. The characters themselves also share that sentiment, as Ripley chews him out with: "You don't see them (the Xenomorphs) fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage." Of course, without Weyland Yutani's repeated attempts to profit from them, xenomorphs would be physically incapable of running amok to the extent they do as they have no spacefaring technology of their own; it's always humans who come to the xenomorph planets, not the other way around.

It's been years since I've watched the Aliens films. The entry itself argues that the Xenomorphs aren't villains — antagonists, yes. Unless the author of the entry didn't realise that an antagonist and villain are not interchangeable terms, that is. But, I always viewed Burke as the show's true villain. Yes, the monsters are a threat but they're also somewhat abstract thanks to their alienness. It's common — especially in sci-fi — for humans to be the real threat. The entry itself feels like it's trying to be a Humans Are the Real Monsters entry.

I feel like using Burke versus the Xenomorphs is a shoehorn. What do others think?

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I'm not familiar with Warrior Cats at all, but this entry comes across as a Hate Sink entry. It doesn't even give us any villains to compare Appledusk against, unless it's supposed to be Mapleshade who is the comparison, but that character is being portrayed as Tragic Villain at best? Plus, it almost seems to be claiming that a character can't be a villain if they didn't physically hurt someone.

This entry doesn't make sense to someone who hasn't read the work. Not in terms of this particular trope, at the very least.

• Warrior Cats: Appledusk is one of the most glaring examples of a Base-Breaking Character in the franchise. Many readers wish he was sent to the Dark Forest or even that he was killed twice. Yet, Appledusk himself only rejected and cheated on his former mate Mapleshade, who subsequently proceeded to go on a killing spree that included him. This rejection also led to his kits being killed, and to make it all worse, it's easy to interpret Appledusk as rejecting his children as well. Appledusk's cruelty towards his own family makes him one of the most despised cats in the series, yet he never laid a claw on anyone.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Feb 1st 2021 at 4:53:17 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Appledusk absolutely counts for this trope, but the example is written very poorly. In Warriors, the villains range from being serial killers, to dictators, to murderous yanderes, to manipulative asshats...and then there's Appledusk, whose only crime was dumping Mapleshade and blaming her for the death of their kits. He was a huge jerk, but by the work's standards he wasn't a villain at all, just a dick. And yet he's so utterly despised by the fandom despite that Mapleshade herself became a violent murderer and one of the series worst villains.

The other ones I'm not sure about.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 1st 2021 at 1:16:30 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Isn't Burke considered a Complete Monster now? Shouldn't that disqualify him, since that means he's a villain?

Actually, that raises a good point: do Complete Monsters qualify for this trope, or should they be cut on principle since the sheer nature of the trope means their evil goes beyond mere Jerkass behaviour?

I'd say a Complete Monster can count if fans hate them for their rudeness instead of their evil actions, and if there are other CMs that the fans should hate more. We might need a crowner on this though.

Edited by Kevjro7 on Feb 1st 2021 at 11:47:08 AM

Yeah, the point about if villains can even qualify is up in the air, let alone CM.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Although I think we do know that characters that are listed under this trope and mainly mention them do realistically evil things that people have encountered in real life don't qualify. Those should be under Realism-Induced Horror instead.

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

I mean. As established, this is likely a subtrope of that. So technically every example would be RIH. The question is if they're portayed as realistic jerkasses or just realistically evil.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

There may be another missing Audience Reaction here, Realism-Induced Discomfort, which would be the super-reaction to RIH. An example comes to mind that someone brought up somewhere — maybe it was you, WarJay? — involved people… arguing…? …maybe?

It was mine, yeah. It's the Electronic Game Information example.

However, RIH is currently broad enough to include discomfort in addition to actual horror.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Yeah, that's the one.

Hm, I didn't realize that. It could stand to be made clearer in the description, in that case.

I wonder if Cringe Comedy should be mentioned somewhere in there? Since people who dislike it often do so for this reason.

Maybe.

But this is getting off topic.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Perhaps the Prince Igor example should be removed as well?

• In Prince Igor, the whole plot is kicked off when Prince Igor goes to war with the Cuman khans Gzak and Konchak who are responsible for devastating raids on Russian towns. However, the character viewed as the vilest one both in- and out-of-universe is Vladimir Galitsky, Igor's own brother-in-law, who starts a regime of debauchery when Igor is away on campaign and plans to seize power in Putivl for good. It doesn't help that the actual central villain Khan Konchak is revealed to be an honourable Affably Evil man and Friendly Enemy to Igor.
  Maidens of Putivl (on Prince Galitsky and his cronies): Worse than the enemies, worse than the Cumans!

When I suggested it on TLP, I was a bit misled by the "lesser villain" mentioned in the description. Prince Galitsky is indeed a lesser villain than Gzak and Konchak (he is too drunken, stupid and lazy to think up any proper evil plans). However, he is a violent rapist who abducts local girls, gloatingly abuses his sister and wants to seize power in the town, all of that during the time when the town is constantly being raided by the Cumans. If the trope is limited to jerkasses, well, "jerkass" is way too mild a term for him.

Okay, we need to come up with some concrete guidelines for what does and doesn't apply.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

We have not decided if the trope is limited to jerkasses yet.

Here's some:

• There's a villain who commits objectively evil acts that deserves the audience's hatred, but the audience hates someone else—lesser villain or jerkass—more despite committing objectively less evil acts.
• The character is hated more than the worse villains for their personality, not their actions, regardless of what their misdeeds are.

Sorry if my proposed guidelines suck—I'm pretty tired right now.

No, those are a solid start.

Have we decided on whether or not to allow CM? I think we probably shouldn't.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

We haven't decided on anything yet. I think we should have a crowner to decide whether Complete Monsters are allowed. There are some CMs on the page like Umbridge, Joffrey Baratheon, and Pong Krell that are hated primarily for being assholes instead of evil, even though there are plenty of other characters in their respective universes that should be hated more for committing worse acts and being eviler: Voldemort, Gregor Clegane, the Night King, Palpatine, Tarkin, and more. If we disallow monsters, characters that otherwise fit like these could be excluded. My opinion is that we should count CMs if they're hated more for their rudeness instead of their evilness, and if there's another Monster in the same story that should be hated more.