Hindsight Cleanup

Would the context I brought up in the post asking about it help or would it not be enough?

The Protomen enhanced my life.

I've responded with the above post in mind, meaning I still don't think these are relevant.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

So... I guess it's a no then? (And I should snip the example instead of rewriting it?)

"The name's Uzume Tennouboshi! Yeah, it's pretty badass, I know." - Uzume, Megadimension Neptunia VII

Not being an example implies it should be cut, which I've twice recommended.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Okay, okay! I'll stop asking you! I'll cut the example right now!

Edit: Already done it.

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On the subject of works becoming harsher due to the creator's actions, we need to talk about Please Tell Me! Galko-chan, a coming-of-age manga that focuses on the topic of puberty with the main character's arc being that she's more than just a gyaru stereotype. Unfortunately, the manga's creator, Kenya Suzuki, was arrested for CP possession that he imported from Germany, leading to the manga's de-serialization. Subsequently, this was added to the work's YMMV page.

• Harsher in Hindsight:
  • The series' large following among fans of the shotacon (manga with young boys) genre, related as it is to several instances where interactions between Galko and younger boys were interpreted as romantically-charged, did not take it well to finding out that the creator might, in-fact, be an actual pedophile and was in possession of child pornography.
  • Since the creator was arrested for possession of child pornography, the series as a whole can come off as this due to its content; an underage, (mostly) female cast talking plainly and often explicitly about sex, periods, and other bodily functions. Not helping matters were the pin-up chapter-inserts featuring said female cast, with the creator posting explicit versions on his social media.

Given that the manga's premise revolves around puberty and the sexuality of it's female cast, as well as a running joke of the titular character being mistakenly perceived as a Lovable Sex Maniac, it's hard not to see why many people nowadays feel uncomfortable looking back at the series knowing the author's depraved behavior.

However, these examples feel like they're stretching the comparison between the manga's content and the author's actions a bit too much. Especially the first part. Since when does having a fan base dedicated to a sub-genre of a very controversial genre correlate to the author being a pedophile? It's kind of like saying the many jokes of Genshin Impact fans being pedos become a lot more creepier when one of the VAs on the English dub side was exposed as an actual pedo. The second part, while much more understandable than the first one, doesn't really correlate the characters of Galko discussing about adolescence to the author importing CP from Germany. Because as far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a single instance in Galko where a character is a Comedic Lolicon or is Mistaken for Pedophile, or pedophilia in general being talked about. The last part of the author posting Fanservice Covers of its female main cast is completely irrelevant and needs to be cut.

With all that said, what do you think of this example? Should it be cut or left in?

Edited by ToonAbby on Feb 3rd 2024 at 12:52:59 PM

"The name's Uzume Tennouboshi! Yeah, it's pretty badass, I know." - Uzume, Megadimension Neptunia VII

Bumping.

"The name's Uzume Tennouboshi! Yeah, it's pretty badass, I know." - Uzume, Megadimension Neptunia VII

I don't think simply having a fanbase of people into pedophilia shipping doesn't mean it's Harsher when the author is also a pedophile. However, specific examples that could be taken as suggestive towards minors could be used as examples, and that concept does sound like it aged badly (similar to Twelve Forever) since talking about adolescent sexuality may not be seen as innocent anymore if written by pedophiles.

(Also, if there was explicit content with underage characters, that might be worth clearing up on the Content Policy thread.)

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Yeah but, wasn't Twelve Forever's Harsher entry cut because it wasn't determined as such (since it was less of a moment and more of the show's entire premise being tainted retroactively).

I guess you have a point. Even people who prefer separating the art from the artist admitted to finding Galko's premise discomforting due to the author's degeneracy. However there should be emphasis on specific moments, not just general moments. As I said, I haven't watched Galko and I don't recall a single moment were pedophilia is brought up, but the manga's tackling on puberty can become uncomfortable and a whole lot less innocent once you know how much of a nonce the author is. Not to mention the actions of the author go against everything about the story as a whole. That said, I'm still considering nuking the shotacon fan base and the Fanservice Cover parts due to how irrelevant they are. At the very least the example should either be rewritten or commented-out.

"The name's Uzume Tennouboshi! Yeah, it's pretty badass, I know." - Uzume, Megadimension Neptunia VII

Oh yeah I guess so. I do think a mere premise can count when framed in the right way with a strong enough connection, but specific moments do tend to make better arguments.

Cut the shota fanbase thing, but I do think the Fanservice Cover aspect could be valid, but I don't know if we would be allowed to acknowledge it due to content policy.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Any thoughts on this one? The last two do seem related to the recent allegations, and may be specific enough to be valid. Not at all sure about some of the others.

"I never get sick" from someone who... later gets ill, as people do, for example.

From YMMV.Chuggaaconroy:

• Harsher in Hindsight:
  • His Super Mario Sunshine LP can be painful to watch if you know that he was suffering a Creator Breakdown at the time and was trying to hide it.
  • Chugga's "I wash my hands 20 times a day and I never get sick!" joke in his Kid Icarus Uprising LP is hard to listen to knowing how sick he got during Xenoblade Chronicles.
  • A few episodes of his Yoshi's Woolly World LP reference the "Yoshi Commits Tax Fraud" meme; then in the finale, Chugga reveals that he was audited by the IRS one week after said Let's Play was announced. For what it's worth though, Chugga had the incident Played for Laughs when he revealed it and took the opportunity to tie it back into the meme.
  • In an Animal Crossing: New Leaf video, Stinky sneezes in his face and Chugga hopes he's not coming down with some kind of "kitty flu" and talks about how unsanitary Stinky might be due to all the bacteria growth underneath his mask. Chugga ends up getting sick during the LP, and then there was his absurdly long infection during Xenoblade.
  • During the ending credits of Super Paper Mario he mentions really looking forward to Paper Mario: Sticker Star. It ended up becoming his most hated video game of all time, to the point that he had some less than happy reactions to it getting brought up in The Runaway Guys.
  • The bad habit Chugga has when he says there's some game elements or extra content that he wants to save for a bonus video, which very often never materializes. One particularly glaring case was during his Okami playthrough in which he started going through the final demon gate gauntlet for the last stray beads, jokingly calling out his viewers for expecting the next video to be delayed 6 years if it ever comes out at all... it ended up taking eight. Lampshaded in Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon by saying that the bonus videos will come and that "This is not Okami." He also brings this up during his reveal of his Splatoon LP, stating he plans on covering multiplayer during the LP as opposed to afterwards since he's fully aware of his bad track record with releasing bonus content.
  • During his Ōkamiden series, he accidentally read "sit down" as... something else. After laughing at himself for a bit, he showed gratefulness that YouTube doesn't have censors. This episode came out before YouTube started demonetising videos for containing swear words.
  • He repeatedly talks about how nobody remembers Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time in his playthrough of it. In the March 2018 Nintendo Direct, a Nintendo 3DS remake of Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story was announced, skipping Partners in Time.
  • When introducing his Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga LP, he calls the Mario & Luigi series a good alternative to Paper Mario after the latter had fallen on hard times, having experienced a perceived artistic decline and severely reduced public presence compared to other Mario-series spin-offs. Now it's the Mario & Luigi series— or rather the company that made them— that has fallen on hard times, with Alpha Dream filing for bankruptcy.
  • In episode 11 of Super Luigi Galaxy, he allegedly face palmed while a Wii Nunchuck was strapped to his wrist and jokingly asks why Nintendo makes their product so durable and to make their product "a little crappier". When the Switch was released, there were problems with the controllers' control sticks drifting after around a year of use.
  • Emile's criticisms of the Polterpup in his Dark Moon Let's Play feels more warranted and much less nit-picky with the introduction of the Polterkitty in Luigi's Mansion 3, which does the exact same things Polterpup did in the last game, but with none of its positive traits.
  • In Super Mario Sunshine, he basically calls out how rigged Mario's trial is and the basic plot is Mario getting framed by Bowser Jr. for vandalizing the island with graffiti. Between Pokémon Crystal and Super Luigi Galaxy/Pikmin, he and other Let's Players were temporarily and wrongfully suspended from YouTube.
  • In the second half of Animal Crossing: New Leaf, his birthday wish is "for my next Let's Play to be a good one". His next LP (not counting Pokémon XD) was Xenoblade which including postgame took 119 episodes and only 19 of them were post game. There was also his illness putting Xenoblade and his channel in general on hiatus.
  • During his playthroughs of the Pikmin games, Chugga occasionally joked about how PNF-404 would be a better place if the playable Captains worked to reduce the populations of some of the more frustrating enemies to fight such as Wollywogs and Orange Bulborbs. His wish would come true in the worst way possible in Pikmin 4, where a decreased populace would become a gameplay problem due to above ground enemies not respawning after they're killed.
  • All of Chugga’s playful teasing and collaborations with MasaeAnela take on a sadder light when Masae revealed on Twitter in January 2024 that the two haven’t been friends for several years, thanks in large part from how uncomfortable Emile made her. Masae goes on to state she had cut all contact with Emile prior to the Splatoon 2 LP and the video she guest starred in was uploaded without her consent.
  • During Episode 19 of the Black 2 and White 2 LP, Chugga goes on a few-minutes-long rant about the female protagonist's shoes, states it's something he "thinks about a lot", claims he named himself "Sneakz" in Join Avenue because of it, and discusses buying the shoes for the cosplayer in the LP's announcement video. All this became far harder to watch when the 2024 allegations revealed Chugga's interest in shoes was a lot less innocent than it seemed, and that he'd engaged in roleplay with a 15 year old when he was 19 (which would be roughly around 2010).

I feel the entries about the Polterpup and linking Mario's trial in Sunshine to Youtube suspending Let's Players can probably be cut. I feel the connections there are very weak at best.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Feb 4th 2024 at 9:45:01 AM

(x3) Considering that Hentai is pothole to "explicit versions", it very much ring some alarm bells. I would still prefer hiding the example though, because I think it should be rewritten with more clarification on what makes the series harder to (re-)watch and to tone it down a bit so it doesn't violate the Content Policy, because the way it's currently written is... concerning, to say the least, even if it highlights how morally-depraved the author is.

"The name's Uzume Tennouboshi! Yeah, it's pretty badass, I know." - Uzume, Megadimension Neptunia VII

Been a long time since I've seen Galko, I'd say the exemple fit, cut the part about the fandom since it's not something about the work or the author himself (or the thing that make it harsher in hindsight), but i do think that Galko interactions with the kid could be mentioned in a eventual rewrite, since the author's action do make it harder to see it as Harmless fun "boy being flustered/having a Precocious Crush"

x4 regarding the Chuggaaconroy entries:

• I'd say remove or rewrite the "never get sick" one as while Emile got sick before that point, the illness during the Xenoblade Chronicles series lasted about 3 months.
• On a similar note, I'd remove the "Next LP to be a good one" entry, as while Emile did get gravely ill during it, the Welcome Amiibo revisit to New Leaf has him say he's still proud of the Xenoblade LP.
• In contrast, I'm confident in the "kitty flu" comment during his LP of Animal Crossing New Leaf staying as he got sick in much closer proximity to that comment, and his illness had a direct impact on the series. Chugga was absent in-game for 4 days which, given Animal Crossing's reliance on calendar days meant four scrapped videos, with Amelia moving out of town during Chugga's absence.
• The Poltrupup criticisms are definite cut since they were ALWAYS criticized in Dark Moon (albeit more as an extension of the entire game's structure).
• The Mario Sunshine trial comment is too weak of a connection to Youtube's policies, the comment regarding Youtube censorship in Okamidenis a stronger connection, but I could take or leave it.
• Finally, I'd say the shoe thing in White 2 should either be cut or rewritten. While Lady Emily's accusations got the ball rolling against Chugga, it ultimately only has a tenuous connection to the more damning allegation of sexting with a 15-year-old.

Everything I didn't list can remain on the page.

Edited by Mariofan99 on Feb 7th 2024 at 2:05:07 PM

Not sure if this was already mentioned but The Boy and the Heron.

• Harsher in Hindsight: The opening scene of the film is a hospital on fire amidst the Pacific War. The film was released in the United States during the 2023 Israel-Gaza conflict, which had many widely publicized reports of attacks on hospitals.

Since this is about current events, free to cut?

Attacks on civilian targets in war never happened before.

Feel free to cut.

Bringing up examples from:

• Harsher in Hindsight: Carlos Villagrán and Florinda Meza did have a Romance on the Set, as confirmed in an interview by Villagrán. Go watch their characters' scenes as mother and son. Either get Brain Bleach as fast as you can or laugh until you cry.
  The entry can't make up its mind on whether the coincidence is hilarious or nauseating. And personally, I don't find anything unusual about two adult actors dating...

• Hilarious in Hindsight:
  • In "Los Tronadores", El Chavo shouts: "I would rather be dead than to lose my life!"^note In Spanish: "¡Primero muerto antes que perder la vida!" The irony comes from the fact that in some of the Latin-American gaming communities, 1-Ups are called "lives"◊.
  Doesn't seem to make any sense?
  • In "El Cumpleaños de Don Ramón", the titular character starts feeling bad for some unknown reason, and other characters don't want to tell him anything. El Chavo accidentally telling him wrong facts only made him feel much worse; turns out, Don Ramón forgot his own birthday, and the other characters were planning a surprise party. A certain pink pony would relate to him over 30 years later.
  Fan Myopia
  • The fight between Don Ramón and El Profesor Jirafales in "El chicle en el sombrero" takes on a whole new meaning after both the animated adaptation and Dragon Ball Super, as they have the same voice actors as Goku and Jiren, respectively. This also applies for the Ultra Instinct parodies using that same fight, as they were made before it was known that Juan Carlos Tinoco would voice Jiren.
  Fan Myopia?

So... opinions?

Agreed, these are all bad, and some aren't even Hindsight.

All of those are bad.

• As pointed out, it argues with itself if it is funny or horrifying. And adult actors dating is so common, we have a page for that.
• Where is the connection of El Chavo saying this phrase and anything videogame related?
• I agree, it is fan myopia. And My Little Pony is not even the first work since then with a character forgetting their own birthday.
• Not even sure what this has to do with anything. Seems like actor garbage (and especially bad since there is not even relation with the original work, but rather an adaptation).

From Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue:

• Harsher in Hindsight: Michelangelo being among those who were trying to get through to Michael, given another of Mikey's voice actors, Kirby Morrow, who voiced him on Ninja Turtles: The Next Mutation, died due to his own substance abuse.

Kirby Morrow didn't voice him in the special, so this seems too far removed.

• Hilarious in Hindsight: Michelangelo and Garfield both appear in the special, long before Nickelodeon would buy both franchises.

They're not the only characters to appear and this seems like another "X owns Y now" shoehorn.

Both can safely be removed.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

Lately I've felt very tempted to add something regarding Gina Carano's lawsuit against Disney to the Harsher in Hindsight section of YMMV.The Mandalorian, but first I would need permission to remove the commented-out warning not to write about her firing.

• In "The Reckoning," Grogu disagrees with Din referring to Cara as a friend, due to mistakenly assuming that she wants to hurt Din. When Gina Carano later attempted to sue Disney for firing her, the lawyers argued that if she couldn't express her political and societal beliefs online, then Pedro Pascal should've also gotten punished for expressing his own. So much for Cara being Din's friend.

Edited by dsneybuf on Feb 10th 2024 at 10:29:15 AM

Sorry, but that seems like a massive stretch. It's taking behaviour between the actors and drawing a very weak (EDIT: as in "faint", not intended as an insult) analogy to the characters.

Edited by DoktorvonEurotrash on Feb 10th 2024 at 10:22:57 AM

Yes, that is simply not a good example, it's just too much of a stretch.

From Hazbin Hotel.

• In the pilot, Alastor makes a reference to the Annie song "You're Never Fully Dressed Without a Smile", which in the show is sung by the character Burt Healy, a 1930s radio host, as this was the creator's inspiration for Alastor. Alastor would later be recast in the main series as Amir Talai, who played Burt Healy in the 2018 Hollywood Bowl production of the same musical.

I'm pretty confident this is the intentional reason Talai was cast in the first place. Wouldn't this fit better under Actor Allusion or Casting Gag?