Goku Black
I've uh read the novelisation. I thought those lines were meant to be Black Comedy Tbh not a serious moment that fell flat.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Exactly. This is why I tried to remove any Missing Trailer Scene examples.
, You could be right. I haven't read the novelization, so these taken-out-of-context lines come off as narmy to me. Regardless, iirc the novelization and other supplementary material should stay out of the main work's page.
Edited by RoundRobin on Jan 14th 2020 at 3:39:26 PM
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
I agree about the Aayla Secura bit moving to There Is No Kill Like Overkill. I would like to add that the long explanation of Palpatine's fight with Windu and the Jedi might fit better in Fight Scene Failure as well.
I'm not so sure about adding the bit about Obi-Wan's and Anakin's duel to FSF, though. At least Anakin's lines are not part of a FSF to my eyes, as they are technically a dialogue that happens during the fight, not the fight itself.
If I can ask, Round Robin, why is exactly the narm about Amidala's death a lie?
Edited by Cieloazul on Jan 14th 2020 at 6:52:50 AM
It's a pun on The Cake Is a Lie. Anyway, the example reads (emphasis mine):
That's not what Narm is about; hence, the narm reference here is a lie. Just because the explanation for Padme's death seems inane, that doesn't negate the dramatic impact of a Death by Childbirth. For comparison, Voldemort's mother also suffered a DBC due to losing the will to live after her husband abandoned her, yet nobody's calling that Narm.
Edited by RoundRobin on Jan 14th 2020 at 4:39:43 PM
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
Goku Black
Broken heart syndrome is a thing in real life too. Plus considering Carrie Fisher's mother ended up dying as well shortly after her daughter passed on due to a broken heart as well. Having this entry is in bad taste imo
People like to Bitch on that star wars page. like Plo kloon's starfighter blowing up entry. Like that happens all the time in films and people don't care why is this film the one where they make it sound like a logic breaking error.
Edited by miraculous on Jan 14th 2020 at 6:58:59 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Agreed on all points.
"So, the Anakin and Padmé folder is full of nothing but valid examples, so keep that one the way it is."
— The "you're so beautiful" etc. example isn't "dramatically cheesy" IMO, just cheesy/corny and doesn't attempt to be dramatic.
Would a bunch of the Palpatine folder fall into scenery chewing and ham rather than Narm?
I see. I guess Voldemort's mother's death was not as important to the plot.
About Plo Koon's death, the thing is not that his starfighter blew up upon landing, it is rather that the explosion was oddly large for a small ship. In the scene, after being hit by the clones, he first hits a tower, already causing some fire, and then he goes to crash on a large building's roof, causing now a two-phase fireball that covers the entire screen. (Maybe the building's last floor contained fuel tanks in-story or something?) However, I think this might be contained in Made of Explodium rather than Narm.
Edited by Cieloazul on Jan 14th 2020 at 8:59:06 AM
I really can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, because Voldemort's mother dying at childbirth was a major catalyst of his turn to evil sociopath. But that's neither here not there, so let's drop this before it derails the thread.
Agreed about the Made of Explodium for Plo Koon's ship.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Ah, I see. You're right about that; sorry for making assumptions / being curt. :)
Edited by RoundRobin on Jan 15th 2020 at 10:38:39 PM
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
Not sarcastic at all, I just realized I used the wrong word, sorry. What I tried to say is that Padmé's death is a high point of its film's structure (it happens after the climactic duels, makes a Birth-Death Juxtaposition with Leia and Luke, is shown at the same time as Vader's own "birth"...) while Merope's death is completely offpage and belongs to its story's background instead of being part of the script.
Edited by Cieloazul on Jan 14th 2020 at 12:54:08 PM
I would honestly ax the entire Palpatine folder because, yeah, all of it is Chewing the Scenery.
We need to cut the page image for TheScrappy.Star Wars. Jar Jar is not only beating a dead horse, it makes me uncomfortable knowing that this exact type of complaining caused the actor to consider suicide. I know this was already mentioned, just trying to show I agree.
Edited by EarthboundFan on Jan 14th 2020 at 4:43:28 AM
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Umm, wut...
e: In short, autocorrect. Both a blessing. And. A. Curse.
Edited by EarthboundFan on Jan 14th 2020 at 5:12:35 AM
Go to Image Pickin if you want the image removed. Personally, I wouldn’t since it’s about the character rather than the actor.
Eh, I would just leave the discussion about it be until I get more consensus. Other people agree that the image is a problem? Great, the thread will start. We come to an agreement that the image is fine? Let it be.
I wouldn't either, though I might change my mind if a better replacement is suggested.
To be a Master
Palpatine is for the most part Narm Charm. He's been like that since his first film, Return of the Jedi.
BTW, there is a slight grammatical error with this entry from NeverLiveItDown.Star Wars that I wanted to correct before the page was locked down. Note the strike line:
- After cheating death in Return of the Jedi and displaying a powerful Force Lightning storm upon his rejuvenation, Emperor Palpatine is immediately killed off when Rey deflects his Force Lightning back at him with two lightsabers. While it's implied that Rey is given strength from all the Jedi spirits to defeat the Sith Lord, the film makes it seem that
theRey only prevailed by calling upon a second lightsaber to push back the Force Lightning. Consequently, Palpatine is often portrayed by fans as someone who is easily defeated by anyone wielding more than one lightsaber, even if they have no Force powers like General Grievous.
I believe most fans loved every moment of Palpatine Chewing the Scenery like there's no tomorrow, so Narm Charm may be the best fit for some of his more egregious scenery chewing ("No, no, you must die!", "Dew it., "Unlimited POWAAAAAH!!!!", and so on).
...And now I just want to watch a compilation of Palpatine hamming it up.
I'm not particularly attached to the Jar Jar image in The Scrappy, so I'd support changing it if a better one can be found. - Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
Considering the prequels' general reception, can we be sure most people see Palpatine's antics as Narm Charm instead of pure narm? I never had the impression Prequels!Sidious was a popular version of his character, or a rare popular prequel character like Maul.
Edited by Cieloazul on Jan 15th 2020 at 8:20:24 AM
This... is somewhat true. This version of Palpatine tends to get relatively worse reception than he did in the OT.
Edited by EarthboundFan on Jan 15th 2020 at 8:28:56 AM
Short of taking a poll or something, we can only really rely on anecdotal experience, but anecdotally, the general consensus among my circles (mostly OT fans who hated the prequels) was that Palpatine / Sidious was consistently the best part of them.
I have no idea if "most" people felt the same way, but I think it's safe enough to say that a significant number did.
Edited by HighCrate on Jan 15th 2020 at 8:34:25 AM
To be a Master
Emperor Palpatine was campy in Return of the Jedi, constantly saying good, laughing maniacally (when previous Imperials were rather stoic and professional) and acting like the Dark Side is the best thing to have with breakfast.
The only time where he's truly a serious villain with no funny moments is The Phantom Menace and to a later extent, Attack of the Clones.
Goku Black
Palpatine.....acts pretty much the same in both the prequels and return. HES always been a hammy and theatrical bad guy and it's part of the appeal. Part of it is the fact it's the same actor but I'm not sure what arguments your trying to make saying his prequel version is disliked.
Edited by miraculous on Jan 15th 2020 at 8:46:59 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Crown Description:
Sandbox.Star Wars ACI has collected examples of Alternative Character Interpretation for Star Wars characters across more than 20 pages, including AlternativeCharacterInterpretation.Star Wars. Some characters have entries on AlternativeCharacterInterpretation.Star Wars, plus the YMMV pages for works where they make appearances, ex. Anakin Skywalker is on franchise-wide, Return of the Jedi, each of the prequel films, Thrawn: Alliances, plus the Darth Vader entries. This is just looking at the canon namespaces and not Legends. Before fixing issues with the examples themselves, we need to decide on how this trope will be organized for this franchise. These options are mutually exclusive; while you can find more than one acceptable, we will only enact one. For a different explanation of the options and the problems with this trope, see the Star Wars Cleanup thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15787899810A93565000&page=12#comment-294
I tackled the Revenge of the Sith folder, but I might have gone a little overboard with the axe. I'll post my thoughts here, in case anyone has any objections/corrections, before pasting them in the sandbox.
- When General Grievous enters the bridge of The Invisible Hand, he has to make the viewers realize how angry he is with "WAAAAAAT'S DA SITUATIAN, CAPTAIN?"
- His ridiculous order to his Magnaguards : "KEEL HEEM"::
Cut. This seems more like making fun of Grievous' accent than a dramatic moment falling flat.- Grievous skittering on all six like a panicked cockroach. It's meant to be creepy, but might be a little overboard.::
Cut. Key words here are "might be", and while I find the skittering crawl ridiculous, I believe it's meant to demonstrate that Grievous isn't a Ridiculously Human Robot like C 3 PO.- Palpatine's scenes of him activating his lightsaber and yelling out a scream that really has to be heard to be believed.
- After Palpatine unveils his lightsaber, he does an incredibly fancy corkscrew jump
over his desk and lands in front of the Jedi, who just step backwards warily. Following the moment, Sidious stabs Agen Kolar in an incredibly slow, grimacing and telegraphied thrust, and Saesee Tiin, who was inexplicably looking at another direction, does nothing to stop it, keeping his weapon held high behind his head all the time. Then Sidious turns aside and slashes Tiin, and this time the victim looks shocked that Palpatine was there in first place. Kit Fisto finally manages to just react to what’s happening and trade a few shots with Palpatine, but he is killed with ease anyways and in doing so he yells out a ridiculous squeal.
- During Palpatine and Windu's singles duel, they lock blades and bring close their faces, and then, presumably out of sheer will in the struggle, they both pull such a purse-lipped expression (or a crazy grimace, in Palpatine's case) that they just look constipated.::
I believe that's a keeper, but it needs to be condensed. How about the following?:: "Palpatine's duel with Mace Windu and three Jedi knights is meant to be a Dramatic Reveal of the seemingly harmless Chancellor's true power. Unfortunately, the moment is undercut by the lackluster choreography of the battle, along with some dubious CGI effects."- Ki-Adi-Mundi's stunned expression upon turning back and seeing the clones pointing their guns to him makes the scene difficult to take seriously altogether.::
Stunned as opposed to an overacted shocked face? Cut.- Aayla Secura's death
loses its effect when you realize that the actress puts no effort into making her drop to the ground look convincing; you could almost swear she was trying to feign death.note ::
Unsure.- The clones' There Is No Kill Like Overkill reaction in the same scene almost plunges into Black Comedy. Presumably in order to check out she is dead, they decided to keep shooting her lifeless body after downing her, and they are still pouring plasma nonstop at the poor girl's body when the camera zooms away. It makes you wonder if they were also going to make one of the AT-OT walking carriers stomp on the corpse for good measure.::
Cut. There's No Kill like Overkill exists for a reason.- Plo Koon being shot down in his starfighter by his own escorts is sad and shocking. His starfighter crashing against an immense city structure and somehow creating a fireball which engulfs it entirely is not, unless he was carrying nukes in his tiny vehicle.::
Cut. "Carrying nukes?" It's called a fuel tank/cell. These tend to explode if they burst open and then a spark ignites the fuel.- "I have seen... A... Security hologram... Of him... Killing younglings..." delivered in an almost completely deadpan way. And it doesn't help that it looks like Ewan McGregor is trying not to laugh at the line.
::
Keep. That faux-Corpsing in the end kills all the drama of the scene.- When Anakin calls Padmé a "LLLIIAAARRRR!!!!", the way he shouts it makes him sound like a child whose parents just taught him that lying is bad, and he's just looking for a chance to call out a fibbing adult and sound like a goody-two-shoes.::
Unsure. It's supposed to be a Jumping Off the Slippery Slope and Drunk on the Dark Side moment, so some ham is to be expected.- "YOU TURNED HER AGAINST ME!!!" The line is so... loud. It really feels like Hayden Christianson was just leaning into the mic for that one.::
Same as above. TBH, I'm leaning towards Cut for both of them.- Then when Anakin yells "YOUWILLNOTTAKEHERFROMME!!!", he puffs his cheeks like he's five and thinks Obi-Wan is trying to take his ice cream from him, not Padmé.::
Again, Cut.- "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" When your Dark Lord of the Sith sounds like the slow member of the debate team, you've got problems.::
Cut. Whining.- "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" Take a close look at that statement. Doesn't it look a little like an absolute?::
Cut. This is Logical Fallacies, not Narm.- Furthermore, everything the Jedi do is absolute. "Do or do not, there is no try" is absolute. Even speaking about a Light side and a Dark side is freaking absolute! Anakin's problem with them in the first place is precisely that they have a ton of absolute rules, particularly those against marriage and love.::
Cut. Justifying edit to the above.- The Force-Push duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan during their climactic battle: it basically had them holding their palms toward each other and glaring daggers at each other while Obi-Wan made silly faces in exertion while the music swells in the background. What's worse is that it had the potential to be an impressive show of their use of the Force: walls buckling, lights flickering, exploding monitors could have driven home just how much power the two of them were using. Instead it just looks ridiculous.
- Shortly after Obi-Wan reveals he has the high ground, Anakin proceeds to take his chances and has his good arm and BOTH his legs (somehow) cut off clean in one strike, and it feels like the only reason for this is the higher ground...
- Anakin's warcry: "UWAAAA-AAAAAAAAAAA!"
- Anakin's stilted "You underestimate my POWAH!" becomes hilarious when he then proceeds to attempt a stupid manuever Obi-Wan just warned him not to try and then gets both his legs abruptly cleaved off for his trouble. Such power to make the galaxy tremble!::
Cut with extreme prejudice. These are Fight Scene Failure at best.- Anakin's Famous Last Words to Obi-Wan. After the intensity of their conflict... And the apparent sense of tragedy Lucas was supposedly trying to reach, of a great Jedi fallen... Ladies and gentlemen:
"I HATE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!"
- It also doesn't help that the line ends up sounding like "I HATE CHEW!"::
Keep. Maybe. If it loses the excess. To the point: ::- At the end of the film, where Amidala is about to give birth to the twins. A droid doctor approaches Bail and Obi-Wan, saying that although she's healthy, she has lost the will to live and is inexplicably dying. * "Medically, there's nothing wrong with her. For some reason, we're losing her." "She's dying?!" The tone of the entire scene is just so overly dramatic, which is what Narm is about.::
Cut. This isn't narm; the narm here is a lie.- Say it with us now... "NOOooOOOoooOOOooo!"/"Do not WANT!" at the end of Revenge of the Sith. See the official soundboard
.::
No. *ding* Seriously, though, Anakin's Big "NO!" is a Keeper if it just states the fact that it's so over the top it crosses from dramatic to silly; still, it needs a rewrite.- The scene in the film where Vader brutally murders all of the Separatists is genuinely chilling, thanks in part to the fact that Vader doesn't utter a single word while doing it. The novelization, on the other hand, decided it was better for Vader to engage in wordplay with them before he killed them.
- "We were promised a reward,” she gasped. “A h-h-handsome reward.“ "I am your reward,” the Sith Lord said. “You don’t find me handsome?”
- “You fought a war to destroy the Jedi.” Vader stood above the shivering Neimoidian, smiling down upon him, then fed him half a meter of plasma. “Congratulations on your success.”
- The head of the Techno Union turned at his approach, cringing, arms lifted to shield his faceplate from the flames in the dragon’s eyes. “Please, I’ll give you anything. Anything you want!” The blade flashed twice; Tambor’s arms fell to the floor, followed by his head. “Thank you.”
- But the absolute worst of them is the painfully bad pun Vader quips before he kills Nute Gunray;
Gunray: “The war is over-Lord Sidious promised-he promised we would be left in peace...”
Vader: “His transmission was garbled.” The blade came up. “He promised you would be left in pieces.”::
Cut. These maybe be legitimate Narm (*cringe*), but they're all from the novelization, aka the supplementary materials. They don't belong in the movie's page.Edited by RoundRobin on Jan 14th 2020 at 12:34:13 PM
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!