Needs Help: Cool Guns

Wuz: Someone created it again and started putting examples in it. I am fairly certain everyone agrees we should allow fictional examples.

Who watches the watchmen?

I vouch for adding fictional examples.

@Tuefel Hunden IV I didn't mean that it was deleted then restored. It was just purged of straight-up fictional guns by another user, who explains that "totally fictional weapons don't fit the trope." If nobody objects I'll revert the purge right now, so we can still have the good fictional cool guns on the page.

edited 21st Dec '17 4:33:20 AM by Wuz

Wuz: Gotcha. Unless one of the others really objects I see no reason not to.

Who watches the watchmen?

Entirely fictional guns seem fine to me.

They should have sent a poet.

I think we should create a sandbox page and post the possible changes in that until we are ready to change the page as whole. That way we can just copy and paste info that is being kept to their new home without disrupting the page until it's content is ready to be replaced and/or changed.

Who watches the watchmen?

Sandbox sounds good.

Also, I think the format used on Cool Plane is better than my proposal of a Useful Notes spinoff.

I think the first step to reworking the trope is to rework the description (and the definition along with it). Here's a write-up. The main points are to remove the limit of "real life only":

---

Some guns just look so cool you just have to make a point about how awesome they are. It doesn't matter if they're real or fictional, big or small, this trope is about the weapons that are given that special close-up spot on the cover, the chance to be the hero's iconic combat signature, or have a speech extolling their virtues. The BFG, the Hand Cannon, the popular, and the unusual.

This trope also includes the guns so widely used that you just can't get away without having them, since these too often get special attention from the cameraman. If not, they're just regular guns; the ones that are there purely because someone needs to fire something at someone else.

See also Rare Guns, Gun Porn, Good Guns, Bad Guns, Gun Accessories, and the Sword Counterpart, Cool Sword. For guns that are not so cool, see Reliably Unreliable Guns.

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I also removed the mention of Cool Action since if we were to rework this into work-centric instead of gun-centric, it just won't work.

edited 26th Jan '18 6:03:15 AM by Wuz

Archon: Had something similar on the previous page.

I don't see the point of the "cool action" part at all so chopping it is fine by me.

Who watches the watchmen?

Cutting out the cool action part sounds good to me.

The "This trope also includes the guns so widely used that you just can't get away without having them" part should be cut I think, that ends up allowing all sorts of guns to be included on the page regardless of how they're depicted.

They should have sent a poet.

Ok here is the Sandbox for the page. So we can make changes that are not permanent and we don't have to worry about mucking the up the existing page until we are ready to do the clean up on it.

Just a heads up the sandbox is only for the main page. Sub pages will need their own sandbox pages created individually.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Sandbox/CoolGuns

edited 29th Jan '18 8:10:10 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

Guys, I don't see anyone actually demonstrating any misuse or valid reasoning for making drastic changes to the trope in this thread.

For a page with over 1100 wicks on 337 pages and and nearly 30k imbounds that's kind of important

edited 30th Jan '18 12:36:49 AM by shoboni

Already pointed out the problem and it was pretty obvious. The misuse was that it turns it into another useful notes section often with multiple vague entries that fit individual weapons entries rather than what makes an item a cool gun. That is pretty blatant misuse right there. That and the trope as it is written is so poorly defined it is almost people sitting on chairs and excludes fictional examples which makes zero sense.

edited 30th Jan '18 6:12:25 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

No you did not.

The protocol requires you not only pointing misuse but demonstrating with a wick check and page check that there's significant enough misuse in order to justify drastic action instead of routine clean-up.

edited 30th Jan '18 7:54:35 PM by shoboni

Yeah we did point out a rather painfully obvious problem that is not exactly hidden and is overtly present on both the example pages and in the current write up. When casual examination reveals a rather blatant problem it doesn't exactly take that leg work to say yes there is a problem. Wicks are far from the only determining method of whether or not there is a problem. Especially when the problem is created by a combination of an overtly poorly written blurb that has some bizarre and arbitrary limits like no fictional fire arms or weird tack on like their cool action line.

Every single example page has a rather painfully obvious issue being organized around individual fire arms rather than Genre and Works and the vast majority of entries are "this weapon shows up or is used by this character" with nothing to actually tie it to the trope. That would be a ZCE problem and even a non-example problem.

Lets tick this off again because these are really very obvious to the point casual observation and you know actually going over the page could point them out. The blurb is quite overtly problematic with arbitrary limitations that make no sense at all for a trope about fictional works including exclusion of fictional weapons but also unusual add on information that is obviously cruft such as cool action. The example pages are a hot mess in part because they are not organized around works sorted by genre like pretty much every other page, but Useful Notes style write ups of individual weapons which makes no sense either. There was frankly no reason to organize it like that and the negative knock on effect is glaringly obvious. The bulk of the examples are either a ZCE entry or even non-examples the majority of which indicate a weapon just shows up and which variety with nothing to actually tie them to the trope. The examples are pretty much all specifically tied to the weapon write ups not the trope. That alone is an obvious issue and wick check isn't needed to point that obvious problem out. That by the way is overt misuse.

Even checking the cross wick would show you there is a problem there as well not only with similar examples on the work pages themselves but also in the fact a large number of the entries simply were not crosswicked at all.

Here is the thing. You don't need a wick check to point out that yes there is a problem. Pointing out that the layout, organization, and the blurb all lead to obvious problems on the trope page and its sub page does not need a wick check to say yes there is a problem especially when it is so glaringly obvious. The only thing the wick check will do is show us how much work would be needed to fix the obvious mess.

That there is a problem is pretty much a foregone conclusion and I would be quite willing to bring the mods in on this and I can practically guarantee they would agree it is a mess that needs fixing.

You haven't got much of a leg to stand on there and declare no one as pointed out a problem when even casual examination can pile up a laundry list of issues that simply are not acceptable on any page and in such a painfully obvious manner across the entirety of the tropes pages. Better yet since you want to insist there is no problem the onus is on you prove it. You want to contest it you need to do your share of the leg work to support your assertion.

edited 14th Feb '18 3:59:25 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

Burden of proof.

If you present the trope as in need of repair you have to do the footwork to provide us with examples of the misuse showing enough of the entries are incorrect to merit drastic actions.

We already did. It is literally on every example page of the trope. It is quite telling that you haven't bothered to do your own leg work at all when all you have to do is literally read the example pages. Like I said your argument has no legs to stand on and your challenge has no merit because you have provided zero evidence to the contrary. It is especially damning when the proof is literally on every page that contains examples. I would ask that you provide proof those pages are written properly with no problems or no notable issues but that is the catch. Every single one is problematic. They all share the exact same issues across the board. The proof that there is problem is pretty liberally spattered across every page. They are built exactly like one another and all the examples are written in the same manner. Every page has an excessive amount of non-examples and ZCE.

When you can bother to sit down and honestly examine the pages and provide proof to the contrary then you will have a point. However last I checked every single example page following the exact same pattern of ZCE, non-examples, and overt lack of reference to the trope itself is quite pretty sufficient and damning evidence.

You need to put your money where your mouth is. So far you have provided nothing to support your statement.

edited 30th Jan '18 10:24:30 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

I see no wick check or demonstration of misuse in this thread.

You made the thread and thus the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate the misuse, not on me to disprove. That's how TRS has always worked.

I mean, as far as misuse on pages that link to it, that's pretty easy. A lot of entries just list every gun that shows up in the work, regardless of how it's presented. It's also used for fictional guns that are given a dramatic focus, even though the trope page says it's only for real life guns.

I think the main issue here is that the page has essentially become a useful notes for guns, and has very little definition. For it to qualify as a "cool" gun it should at least be given some focus in the work, and maybe the info sheets about various weapons could then be made into a useful notes.

They should have sent a poet.

You challenged and last I checked even in TRS if you bring up a challenge the burden is on you to support your point. You have done nothing. Problems directly on a page do not require a wick check to say the pages have a problem. Something you could easily verify on your own by reading the page something you obviously refuse to do because it would ultimately mean you are wrong. Even more telling is that you are free to do the wick check yourself and share the results as part of your challenge yet I see nothing. Frankly I find your blind objection with no action hypocritical.

Short of copying and pasting the pages directly which would be nothing but a very large wall of text. There is no more direct way to point out the abuse then for you to quit being stubborn and check the pages. We have already pointed out and shared examples of bad entries and pointed out the fact they are rampant across all the pages and not isolated examples Frankly I doubt you even bothered to follow the discussion and just skipped to the end to object. Either do the leg work to support or you point or provide something that says there is no problem. Until you do you have contributed nothing and your objection is empty.

Who watches the watchmen?

Then you take a significant cross sample from the page and and evaluate each example as correct, ZCE, misuse, or questionable/shoehorning.

That's TRS protocol. Especially with tropes that have a significant amount of in-bounds and wicks.

edited 31st Jan '18 11:24:26 AM by shoboni

We can do a random sampling or a wick check but it wouldn't be to show abuse on the trope page itself.

Though it would be useful to see if the problem is more wide spread. Outside of overt bad entries like ZCE and generic gun appears entries I don't think we will see many issues on the works pages proper and my small sampling seems to suggest older entries take Cool Guns more at face value then the rehashed write up.

I already did a smaller sampling earlier which is why I mentioned a number of them weren't even cross wicked and several of the sample showed the exact same pattern of ZCE and just appearing entries. If they aren't cross wicked that would make clean up a lot easier and if a significant number of them are not cross wicked at all it would make the problem one more isolated to the trope page rather than works page.

Give me a few minutes and I will at least start to check to see how many are actually showing up on the wick check which I strongly suspect is far too few given the number of entries we have listed on the trope. I can pull about 50 odd samples from the wick check itself without too much trouble to cross check them to see if the works pages have the same issue or if it is more contained.

edited 31st Jan '18 4:45:07 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

Do all the examples of misuse have to be listed in this thread? Most of them are fine but it's not hard to find misuse, for example this is from the very second page on the list of inbound: "Cool Guns: Very good with shooting." The majority of misuse is either ZCE like that or simply listing guns.

Fixing the issues with the trope page would also fix a lot of the issues with entries, specifically ones that list fictional guns. It would also make it easier to clean out the "listing guns" entries.

They should have sent a poet.

No not all the examples of misuse have to be listed individually. That would be largely impractical in nearly all clean up projects of any sort.

Ok here is the wick and comparing the wick check to entries on the page there is a big issue with missing wicks.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/relatedsearch.php?term=Main/CoolGuns It shows up in 1153 articles.

Here is the rough initial count.

Anime-12
Manga-22
Film-130
Series-32
Comic-4
Literature-32
Video Game-77
Light Novel-4
Western Animation-3
316 with a rough total possible estimate of all works pages of about 375. 32% of all wicks. +101 from redirects with similar wick count. Total of about 475. The rest of the hits are references on character pages or other write ups like recaps and other tropes blurbs. That count seems way too low given the size of the Cool Guns pages and entries.

So I did a similar count on the very first example section under Handguns just to see what we would get.

Anime-28
Manga-22
Film-271
Series-74
Comic-1
Literature-34
Video Game-315
Light Novel-8
Western Animation-10
763 works.

I counted the total number of first level bullet points and subtracted all the 2nd and 3rd levels bullet points for a total of 711 individual entries. The 50 some odd works disparity comes from some bad entry habits of listing multiple works both individual and part of a series or sequels in the same single entry.

We are missing several hundred wicks from the wick page easily and that is just from handguns. While there will be some crossover in all the sections there are enough that it is quite likely there will be an overall disparity of several hundred more across all the example pages under Coolguns.

I will do the sampling next but that will take more time.

edited 31st Jan '18 6:35:50 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

Here are the 50 samples. I picked them from the wick page specifically in batches of 10 until I had 50. It is looking like the majority of the examples are facing the same issues as the trope page. Lots of straight up ZCE examples and about as many of guns just showing up in a work.

Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter-ZCE
Ah Boys To Men-Gun simply appears and ZCE
Ahoy-Ok needs a a little work but ok.
Akatsuki Blitzkampf- in example ZCE.
Alan Wake-ZCE and Guns in work.
Alien Nation-undecided but leaning towards Guns in work.
Alien Shooter-Guns appearing American Sniper-Guns in work.
Angels With Dirty faces-ZCE
Aoharu X Machinegun- ZCE
D 20 Modern Neverwinter Nights(Mod)-Guns in work
Dakota Harris-Guns in work
Damage Incorporated-Ok.
Dance of the butter fly-ZCE
Days of Infamy-Guns in work
Dead Fantasy- Guns in work
Deadly Prey-Guns in work
Death Note-ZCE Death Sentence-In example Guns in work.
Death Wish- Unsure given the description is for the unique nature of the gun could use a little bit more context.
Face Off-This one is good.
Fallout 2-Part of in example reference. If sorted out would be ZCE.
Fallout: Equestria - Empty Quiver -Guns In Work
Far Cry 2-ZCE
Fathers Day 2011-In example reference which even in example is a ZCE
First Blood-Guns in work
For A few Dollars more-ZCE
Forgotten Hope-ZCE
Forty Eight Hours-Guns in work
Frag-ZCE
Galaxy Quest-I am not entirely sure as it is listed as an aversion but is not very well explained
Games By53xy 83457-ZCE
Gear Krieg-ZCE
Geist Panik-gun in work
Get Carter-Guns in work
Gettysburg-This one is good
Ghost in the Shell-guns in work
Girls' Frontline-ZCE
Go Go Sentai Boukenger-in example reference that is ZCE even in example
Golden Eye Wii-guns in work
Pacific: World War II U.S. Navy Shipgirls-Guns in work
Parallel Dementia -In example ZCE
Parallels - Could use a little more detail but it works.
Parasite Eve - Guns in work
Parasite Eve 2 -Guns in work
PAYDAY: The Heist -ZCE
Persona - ZCE
Phantom of Inferno -ZCE
Pirates Vikings and Knights -In example ZCE
Player Unknown's Battlegrounds-This one is ok
Pony Gear Solid -guns in work
Portlandtown -guns in work

edited 1st Feb '18 12:08:18 AM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?