Misused: Everyone Is Jesus In Purgatory

Going on from a discussion in the image thread, it's been noted there has been a lot of toing and froing on its laconic as to whether the page should be confined to religious symbolism (which has been noted that was its initial purpose) — or more specifically, messianic qualities held by someone or something.

Conversely, on a related note, the seemingly secular Faux Symbolism is too religious.

edited 4th Sep '17 5:23:01 AM by v-n-n-n-n

Opening.

Somehow I missed this one when it was opened. I think this trope's name is misleading if it isn't about religious symbolism. There are religious references in the name (i.e. Jesus, Purgatory), so anyone's reasonable expectation of a Clear name is that this has something to do with religious symbolism. There's a level of irony in the name that is unnecessary and confusing. I mean, it would be different if the title were, say, Everyone Is Jesus In Portland or Everyone Is Elvis In Purgatory or something but both the person and the location are religion-based. It's also a bit myopic because not everybody even knows what to expect in purgatory or why identifying Jesus as everyone in purgatory is... a thing or funny.

I think we should expand the definition to fit the current image. Otherwise we'll end up with a trope for religious symbolism and another for non-religious.

We already do have that. Everyone Is Jesus in Purgatory and Faux Symbolism.

Yes, I'm of the opinion that it should accept non-religious examples. Instances where fans see symbolism in works where there's just no symbolism, of any kind.

Edit: I don't get what the image in Faux Symbolism is trying to get across... Does Not Illustrate or Just A Face And A Caption, I'd say.

edited 28th Nov '17 3:10:54 PM by Gosicrystal

Bring that up in Image Pickin, not here.

edited 28th Nov '17 3:48:10 PM by Lymantria

This trope can simply be a broad trope, not restricted to religion, in my mind. A rename does not seem warranted, since it has good inbounds.

I don't understand the difference between this trope and Faux Symbolism.

FS is about symbolism that seems like it would be important but isn't (according to its Laconic); EIJIP is about how symbolism can be found in everything even if it wasn't intended at all.

Who decides whether symbolism is important?

The UN security council?

I think the trope's definition should be expanded to include non-religious symbolism, but the current name should be kept because the page has over 20,000 inbounds and is listed on Tropes of Legend. As for Faux Symbolism, I feel that it's definition is different enough to be its own trope.

How much it has to do with the story.

Title is maddeningly opaque, description is a Wall of Text, and I feel like it duplicates Faux Symbolism (especially if the Laconic is accurate).

I propose merging it with FS.

edited 5th Mar '18 4:58:29 PM by StarSword

The name is misleading. It makes people think "everyone is an analogy to religious figures" instead of the tongue-in-cheek "people think everyone is an analogy to religious figures, haha they're so silly".

The description's bad, too. It can afford a trim to make the point get across clearer.

Also, it's different from Faux Symbolism. FS is when authors put in religious symbols for no reason other than coolness. Everyone Is Jesus in Purgatory is when the audience misread something as symbolic when they're not. The former is a trope like all those Everything's Better With X. The latter is an audience reaction.

Actually, they're both listed as YMMV. And Faux Symbolism isn't limited to religous symbology either (and the description is similarly long and rambling).

If Everyone Is Jesus in Purgatory is meant to be "audience sees symbolism that isn't there", I think that would be a good place to use the "What Do You Mean" snowclone, since that's at least consistent with the other tropes by that name (e.g. What Do You Mean, It's Not Political?). Then I would say rewrite Faux Symbolism's description to make it clear that trope is about the work inserting a symbol because Rule of Cool or that doesn't mean what the work seems to think it does.

edited 8th Mar '18 12:53:41 PM by StarSword

What Do You Mean, It's Not Symbolic? is already a redirect. We could make that the trope name and have Everyone Is Jesus in Purgatory as a redirect.

edit:

Nevermind, it's a redirect to Faux Symbolism, which is rather confusing. It could still be moved to a redirect of Everyone Is Jesus in Purgatory though.

edited 8th Mar '18 1:27:14 PM by malias

I agree that What Do You Mean, It's Not Symbolic? should be a redirect of Everyone Is Jesus in Purgatory instead since that name fits EIJIP better than Faux Symbolism.

I'm gonna level with everyone:

I've been here for well over 5 years now, probably closer to 8 and I still have no idea what Everyone Is Jesus in Purgatory or Everyone Is Satan in Hell actually are so SOME kind of repair to give them some concrete definition is needed here

Is about Christ allegories?

Is about the Messianic Archtype?

Is is a religion-spefitic example of Faux Symbolism?

Is it an audience reaction about people READING any of those things into something regardless of intent or context?

I haven't the foggiest idea in hell.

edited 10th Mar '18 5:25:18 PM by shoboni

In my opinion, EIJIP is the latter.

edited 10th Mar '18 8:20:10 AM by Albert3105

Wow, the OP found a real rabbit hole of bad pages.

Everyone Is Satan in Hell looks like it's trying to be "unplanned viewer-perceived Satanic subtext", especially Moral Guardians complaining about shows they don't like (e.g. "Dungeons & Dragons is Satanic! Save the children!"). I think that could easily be renamed Satanic Panic (since that's a preexisting term for this) and made a subtrope of Moral Guardians and Cowboy Be Bop At His Computer.

edited 10th Mar '18 1:20:33 PM by StarSword

I've always though Everyone Is Jesus in Purgatory was an audience reaction about people reading too much into things. It's the only one of those options that actually makes sense to be YMMV.

Okay, I can't see why Faux Symbolism is YMMV. It looks pretty objective, to me (a symbol that doesn't really have any meanings).

I can agree with making What Do You Mean, It's Not Symbolic? redirect to EIJIP.

Also to rename Everyone Is Satan in Hell to Satanic Panic.

Possibly because it's subjective in many cases and not worth the debates.