Misused: Fighter Mage Thief

It misses those interactions and party-building stuff because it's not about those things.

In total, I think that the best approach for this is to think that Fighter, Mage, Thief can consist of roles that fill Damager, Healer, Tank, roles that fill Combat, Diplomacy, Stealth, etc. but these party formations doesn't necessarily have to consist of a Fighter, Mage, and a Thief.

There's maybe a case where Fighter, Mage, Thief can exist as a "here is a very common set of starter classes you'll see in lots of works" trope and a separate Fighter Mage Thief Dynamic trope can describe how a Power Trio fills these classes as if they were roles, but as can be seen in how its represented in a lot of games, and especially in non-game examples, it's really all over the place in terms of what each class can represent and I don't think there's a lot of worth in making it a less-strict variant of Five-Man Band where, for example, the Mage can represent anything from Squishy Wizard, Magic Knight, or even just The Smart Guy or Improbable Weapon User.

They do NOT have to fufill any roles other than damage, that's not the point of the trope at all.

Can they? Sure. For example Dragon Age and Dragons Dogma have Draw Aggro mechanics such. Dragon Age does not have healers, instead potions and Shield Spells. And Dragons Dogma uses the 'can only heal a certain amount of a hit with a spell' type healing like Final Fantasy XIII 2 used, not sure if we have a trope for that kind of Wound Damage.

However that is not their primary purpose like pure White Mage healers like in MM Os and other RP Gs, you are there to do damage. you got your Brawler Fighter, Speedster Thief/Archer/Rogue whatever and Squishy Wizard. That's your class choices and that's it, the systems might go from there with Prestige Classes or Hybrid Classes but Fighter, Mage, Thief is the basis of everything.

edited 11th Mar '17 5:34:18 PM by Memers

Ah, so I get it: Damager, Healer, Tank is party-based class calculus while Fighter, Mage, Thief is solo-based one that only focuses on damage?

Thing is, 1) the two aren't mutually exclusive (this isn't against the argument, actually, just pointing that out), 2) Common Character Classes and An Adventurer Is You are more flexible without taking into account party play or solo play (and this is against the argument).

edited 11th Mar '17 6:17:30 PM by Getta

Those two are general tropes yeah. The latter really needs some work though and trope transplant to mean its name and first paragraph... I would open a thread but I would expect it would be closed.

This one is a minimalist stereotype where these games start out with just these three types. It is an adaptation of D&D first edition's 3 classes but adapted to be a more solo style. It was popular in the pre-NES era and got a resurgence with Diablo. I have even seen it made fun of in some animes playing retro games.

edited 11th Mar '17 6:28:18 PM by Memers

Dragon Age (at least Origins) DOES have healers as a subspecialization of mages and one is likely to be acquired during normal campaign. In fact a party without a healer is not practical in long runs in DA:O. Admittedly, in boss fights potions are useful, but most of the time a dedicated healer is enough, and two healers (one dedicated and one secondary healer) cover it completely.

DA:O is all about managing a party, with switching members to better suit current needs. Mages there can fulfill roles of melee fighter, ranged damage dealer, healer and buffer. Fighters can be pure damage dealers or tanks. Rogues can be pure melee damage dealers, ranged damage dealers and buffers.

So, no. DA:O may look like being about Fighter, Mage, Thief on the surface (it does offer this choice at the beginning), but playing it makes it clear, that it is primarily about Damager, Healer, Tank and sometimes diplomacy.

As for original D&D, it relied heavily on Chainmail (a wargame) for handling combat, so I highly doubt Fighter, Mage, Thief had much to do with it. Admittedly, to check it a run through original rules is required, and I don't have them at the moment.

edited 12th Mar '17 1:33:31 AM by permeakra

So...uh...hi.

Having thought about it, the problem here is that while what you've been describing is certainly a valid trope, it isn't something that the name Fighter, Mage, Thief can be attached to without misuse. Or anything else, really (unfortunately including my earlier Combat Stealth Magic suggestion) - there's too many superficial cases of three classes with names like that don't have anything in common other than the naming scheme - and I know from experience that breeds misuse.

The idea of the broad Three Class System supertrope with this as a redirect is probably our best bet at this point, and then just throwing down various subtropes to cover the different types of examples.

A Tri Class System page with subtropes would be a great idea. Although I think that would need a rework of the way some of the other tropes are written with maybe a trope transplant of An Adventurer Is You to something more about class systems in general, possibly merge it with Common Character Classes, and An Adventurer Is You be literal with games that just drop you in as an adventurer like Dragon Age and Skyrim.

DA:I does not have a healer class, which is what I was directly referencing. The mages do have Damage Absorption Shield but thats it.

edited 25th Mar '17 12:02:45 PM by Memers

Three-Stat System would be related, at least.

Bumpty bumpty, Humpty Dumpty.

It looks like Three Class Game as a supertrope is still a good starting point, but all the subtropes and what the classes actually mean are still being debated.

How do we proceed from here?

Start with drafting Three Class Game in TLP, at least.

Bumping, but also there's a draft in YKTTW called Speed, Smarts, and Strength which is apparently trying to be Fighter, Mage, Thief's supertrope. It's been around since 2014, but could this effort be benefited from it?

I feel like the Missing Supertrope we're looking for is not Three Class Game but rather Three Approach System, as such a system would not only include Fighter, Mage, Thief and Damager, Healer, Tank but also Combat, Diplomacy, Stealth.

And if it is distinct enough, I feel a trio that sneaks into this page but is actually seperate is Melee Ranged Magic, as I keep seeing a third type of class/weapon that isn't good for stealth or speed but strength comes from doing good damage from a long range. Feel that this type of system is most common in action heavy games.

Probably because of this

The Thief in Fighter, Mage, Thief is the Ranged in Melee Ranged Magic.

The Thief class in video game land is not a thief as in stealing things. They are speedy lightly armored damage dealers that avoid damage. They do damage from either dual wielding daggers or swords and/or at ranged with a bow.

It dates back to the oldest of the old RP Gs where there were no stealing mechanics and the rest of the D&D class was just lifted wholesale, name and all which continues to this day.

edited 10th Jul '17 6:29:43 AM by Memers

& Okay, I get ya. Still, probably need to do some editing to make this clearer.

I'm also noticing a lack of Three Class System or something similar in Trope Launch Pad so I might try to launch that myself. Hopefully my lack of experience in launching won't cause any issues...

Okay, I tried my hand at this TLP, input on how it could be improved (which it definitely will need to be) would be helpful!

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=xtfyo93fiu5jwj2802bb9zix

Clock expired; closing.