Needs Help: Oscar Bait

My issue here is that we've essentially got two items here: one blatantly YMMV one ( the folder is headed with "Films (or otherwise) that come across as particularly obvious in their ambitions:" which makes it clear that it's an Audience Reaction) and In-Universe examples of the former.

Not to mention it's a breeding ground for contentious opinions. Sure, there's a list of "common signs of Oscar Bait" but they're pretty vague (the movie Chocolate tics a ton of them off and it... is not Oscar Bait. Seriously, click that link) and how many of those signs would have to apply before it becomes "bait" is entirely YMMV.

I think we should move this YMMV and allow In-Universe examples on main pages using the In-Universe tag.

edited 28th Feb '17 8:39:35 AM by Larkmarn

Opening.

YMMV makes sense here.

Hmm. This page needs some good work. I agree moving it to YMMV and allowing in-universe.

I'm also not sure how I feel about the description and the "tactics" heading.

edited 28th Feb '17 9:53:21 AM by pokedude10

Making it YMMV is likely to increase the amount of complaining!

On the other hand, I'm not sure I have a good alternative. But if we're going to make it YMMV, we might want to take a few moments to see if we can think of a way to address the all whining and sour grapes.

Not to mention soapboxing, since the Oscars (and other award shows as well) have become quite the political lightning rod in recent years (cf. OscarsSoWhite, Meryl Streep's anti Trump speech at the Golden Globes and the ensuing jokes from Jimmy Kimmel re: the latter at the Oscars.)

edited 28th Feb '17 12:02:33 PM by Theatre_Maven_3695

The only other thing I can think of is make it In Universe Examples Only. Only fictional examples of Oscar Bait (and there are plenty) would be allowed and could get wicks.

That seems to be the usual course of action with complaining-prone tropes (if not an Example Sectionectomy and/or lockout.)

Perhaps we could just make it clear that Oscar Bait is not a bad thing, and many movies that try hard to win these awards better themselves in the process?

But then you've got the whole "try to win an award" thing being subjective.

And calling something "-bait" is rarely going to be a positive.

edited 28th Feb '17 2:05:18 PM by Larkmarn

I think there's no way that this trope will be able to avoid complaining. Tropers love complaining about the Sci Fi Ghetto and the Animation Ghetto, two tropes the Oscars will never completely ditch. I'm surprised the whole page isn't already bitching that The Dark Knight didn't win.

I'd say make it In-Universe only (but keep the first two folders for context).

I'm firmly against that because I think the wiki already plays to safe with with "this trope isn't happy fun time and people actually disagree about things, take the chainsaw to it or make it in-universe only"

edited 28th Feb '17 4:07:05 PM by shoboni

That's a false equivalence. Those are sympathetic tropes, talking about how a work doesn't get as much respect as it deserves because. Oscar Bait is has inherently negative connotations.

I don't like that tendency any more than you do, but it's a price we have to pay to avoid returning to the dark days of being regarded as nerd-ragey, factionalist Snark Bait (there's another one!) with a SFW problem. Informal doesn't mean 4chan clone.

Maybe we just get rid of the works that come across as particularly obvious section?

So okay. The suggestions thus far:

• Make YMMV and allow wicks. In-Universe examples can go on main pages.
• Make In Universe Examples Only and not allow subjective examples anywhere.
• Remove examples from the Oscar Bait page and allow wicks.

Any other ideas?

I'd also add to clarify the page description to better define what is Oscar bait. Since it would be a page action, multiple options could win concurrently.

Right now, I think a good chunk of the problem is the description is so broad to include any artsy/minority/depressing film. Unless there's a clear description of what is Oscar Bait, examples will be shoehorned and boil down to "I don't like it."

I'd also like to see a basic cleanup before redefining the trope itself. It could be a case of just having bad examples.

Also... Not trying to be a nag, but where is the wick check?

edited 1st Mar '17 6:57:59 PM by pokedude10

I haven't done one because I honestly don't know what I'd be checking for. The trope is so broad that there kind of is no such thing as misuse.

Y'know, that in itself is a red flag to me that this simply isn't a trope worth keeping. If it can't be defined well enough that experienced tropers Larkmarn's been actively troping for over 6 years; I've been here at least that long, too, and I can't articulate a clear definition, either can figure out what is proper use and what is misuse, then it's effectively not defined at all.

edited 2nd Mar '17 7:47:23 AM by Madrugada

and Hmm. Fair point.^note  I've also been troping since around '10, but I see your point. I agree that the definition right now is muddy and broad. However, I think there is a trope here worth keeping (whether YMMV, In-Universe, or other).

Given that there are parodies of Oscar Bait (usually about subject matter), there is a base trope which is parodied.

One of the main issues is the definition can't distinguish between a movie with certain subject matter, using certain release tactics, or more broadly a movie trying to get an Oscar. Personally, I think focusing on the first definition is the most salvageable.

If we can agree on a core definition, then we could do a wick check against it.

That's because it's a movie using certain release tactics and subject with the common intent of winning awards.

It's both.

edited 2nd Mar '17 11:33:06 AM by shoboni

The tactics and examples subsection needs to be dealt with. The fact that a lot of what is basically more trope description squirreled away into a folder says a lot about its lack of focus. Though disorganized and suboptimally worded, I think the content in the Subject Matter folder actually has more trope content than the description

These are some common Features of Oscar Bait:

Release:

• Features big-name actors known primarily for "serious" roles
• Usually released in "Oscar Season" in the winter (Nov-Feb) a few months before awards season. If movies win Academy Awards, they often receive an extended run in theaters.

Content:

• Almost always dramas, perhaps fueled by True Art Is Angsty. However, Oscar Bait films also frequently feature characters triumphing over adversity (particularly if the film is not dominated by the usual White Male Lead). Biopics are especially prominent genre here.
• Common tropes: Inspirationally Disadvantaged, Whoopi Epiphany Speech, Littlest Cancer Patient

If there was really a lot of evidence for flame wars resulting from this page, I would propose moving to Darth Wiki as another option. But I haven't seen evidence for that yet.

I don't think moving it to Darth Wiki is necessary at all.

Why not? Calling anything "bait" is textbook snarky complaining; I don't see why we should bend one of our most ironclad rules just because the title is a preexisting term. Weeding out flame bait and bitching about "high art vs soulless award fishing" is worth missing out one industry term IMO.

I think he's agreeing with the poster above him in saying that there's no sign of flame wars over this.

And I agree. While this is definitely potential flame bait, I personally haven't seen any actual flame wars over this (and I've been keeping an eye on it since the Moonlight/La La Land rivalry heated up).