Broken Base Cleanup

From YMMV.Uma Musume

• The fact that a second season of the anime exists has divided the anime community, due to the fact that the Blu-Rays of the first season only sold so well because Cygames put codes for Granblue Fantasy items in them. Critics accuse the series' creators of exploiting an anime production loophole to foist a second season that no one actually wants on the world, while fans argue that the second season is the result of the mobile game's success and are happy to see their favorite horsegirls again.

It doesn't seem like it's a true BB from the actual fandom itself since the first comes off like those who don't even watched the anime are complaining that a second season even exists. Especially with that "foist a second season that no one actually wants on the world" line. Cut?

Cut with extreme prejudice.

This is on YMMV.Plants Vs Zombies:

• Broken Base: Who is actually responsible for the downfall of the franchise and its gradually decreasing quality? EA is the easy target for their already bad record and the introduction of micro-transactions into the series. However, they’re often said to not even be the big problem, since without them, Plants Vs. Zombies wouldn’t even be a franchise. Not to mention that EA are only the publishers. PopCap is also often said to be at fault instead due to being the actual developers, and most of the first game’s employees quitting before the sequel came out. People who Take a Third Option often say that its their combined influences that both lead to the franchise’s death.

This is basically bashing the franchise for going downhill, so I think I might cut it. What do you think?

Just by reading what it says yeah I would also say it's just about the downfall if anything. So I say cut that.

That's standard practice, afaik. Bundling codes for items and ticket raffles in BD/DVD releases has been a thing in anime and Japanese music for years. Plenty of idol groups do it for their concerts. I'm pretty sure Love Live! did it several times, too.

This is the first time I've heard of it being for another franchise, granted, but it's not completely unheard of.

So it doesn't count at all as it's hardly unique to Uma Musume.

EDIT: Also, Uma Musume is extremely popular in Japan, and I'm sure plenty of fans over there would've wanted the second season to happen regardless.

Edited by Zazie122 on Mar 3rd 2024 at 10:41:22 PM

Bumping this https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=14667066520A94266400&page=85#comment-2123

The only arguments I’ve seen from the examples that have stood the test of time are the Deluxe version and Booster Course Pass. Even then, the former died down when Deluxe became more popular than 8 ever was, and those complaining about the BCP seem like a Vocal Minority or just those complaining their favourite tracks didn’t get in.

The Tour section could stay in, but I have never heard of this divide between 8 and Deluxe fans, especially since they are essentially the same game but with more content put in.

Edited by CanuckMcDuck1 on Mar 17th 2024 at 12:18:57 PM

From Reviewing a Reviewer, with both examples the latter category doesn't seem to be part of his fanbase at all.

• Broken Base:
  • His humor is well-written Black Comedy and also sticks to the subject matter vs his humor is unfunny as well as quite bigoted and childish.
  • His "Review a Reviewer" series is a good opportunity to warn people of when reviews go wrong vs. his "Review a Reviewer" series is nothing more than an excuse to Accentuate the Negative on easy targets.

Edited by randomtroper89 on Mar 27th 2024 at 11:37:54 AM

Right, that seems like in-fandom versus out-fandom debates.

YMMV.Zero Punctuation has two entries with a similar feel:

• Broken Base:
  • Generally divided into people that think he's hilarious, entertaining but not to be taken seriously, or unfunny, irritating, and bigoted.
  • Also there's people that say that he's too narrow-minded with his Bias Steamroller frequently showing in reviews of genres of games that he doesn't normally enjoy (i.e. JRPGs, Real-Time Strategy, Fighting Games, Modern Military FPS) while others find that it makes him interesting.

Cut?

Agreed. Those can be safely cut.

I found this on YMMV.Community:

• "G.I. Jeff" has a significant split in opinion, some people love it, a lot of people think it is one of the worst episodes the show ever made. Other people find it boring, often as a result of the Whole-Plot Reference being an American cartoon that a lot of viewers weren't really familiar with, or even knew existed, which makes the references to the references just blank, unfunny bits that don't work.

This seems overly negative. It only barely mentions people liking it before just going on about why people dislike it.

Been meaning to mention this on Chikn Nuggit:

• Sometime after Bezel's introduction, since it was confirmed that Bezel would play a part in some kind of "storyline", it was clear that Kyra wanted to take Chikn Nuggit in a new direction. A discussion then sparked about that, or more specifically: should Chikn "become something greater than shorts"? in other words: should the series get rid of the shorts format, in favor of having longer episodes? On one hand, the series could expand upon its lore, episode plots, and characters more than 30-second shorts could. Another major point is that it'll keep the series fresh as this was around the time that it was experiencing the most negative feedback it has ever seen. Such feedback is directed in regards to being tired of the jokes and gags, finding the characters interesting, but flat, and just being bored of the format in general. Some have even argued that they want longer episodes, but with more of a casual slice of lifestyle, and maybe an epic adventurous story, like the lore currently being made in the works. And with a tv series being developed soon, people have stated that the lore should continue on there. On the other side, some fans believe that the episodes being bite-sized skits is the series' main appeal, and what the series should always be, and that introducing more serious stories and lore will ruin that. Some are even afraid that Chikn Nuggit would become "super serious" and it'll lose its humorous appeal.
  • Following that, every time the series tried its hand at having some big serious lore or story beat, the reaction can get a bit mixed. While it has been liked by some fans of the show, it has also been criticized, especially by others who were originally fans but stopped watching after sometime, mainly due to the fact that it either barely makes any sense, can get tiresome and tedious to watch, or is just rather silly and dumb. And also, some people have made points that making lore in a miniseries is not really possible, especially with just sub-30 second bite sized shorts. Is all the "serious lore" really an interesting way to take the series in a new direction and explore the characters more? Or is it part of a series that originally started off simple, but is now trying to make a half-baked attempt at trying to be deep and interesting for no reason other than to get people talking? Not helping is that lore shorts have had an inconsistent schedule, taking a few weeks long, or even a month or two, mainly due to the fact that the show still does its standard form of episodes that take up 90% of the show, with very few lore shorts happening. Because of this, fans of this show eagerly waiting for the lore shorts have been angered in impatience ever since, especially when they want their questions regarding the lore to be answered already.

A gigantic Wall of Text for an issue that leans more on the negative reactions instead of focusing on both. Should i just cut this?

Yeah this whole section derails into some complaining of the idea of "serious lore" in something so wacky. I'd say just cut the sub-bullet altogether, and balance out the negative points with some of the good that lore videos entail.

Edited by CanuckMcDuck1 on Apr 4th 2024 at 7:21:49 AM

Ight, here's something i cooked up that simplifies the points. Any points?

• The developing story since the introduction of Bezel garnered mixed reactions. Some thought the new lore is unnecessary and distracts from the main intention of being a comedy, while others welcomed it and think it would expand the world and characters while still remaining comedic.

Regarding "GI Jeff", whenever I hear people complain about the episode, it's mostly about how the episode is a retread of "Abed's Uncontrollable Christmas".

Edited by SharkToast on Apr 4th 2024 at 7:34:19 AM

A lot more digestible. Feel free to replace.

Found this on the Persona YMMV page: Broken Base:

• Since the Newbie Boom especially thanks to The New '20s ports, there has been a clearer divide between players that play at their own pace and players that prefer to use guides (especially for max Social Link/Confidant runs in the modern games). The former is tired of constant questions for guides including for very obvious solutions and considers use of any guide making playthroughs unfun. The latter argues that the games have plenty of Guide Dang It! moments that reduce the fun factor especially for accessing the (usually-advertised) bonus content that certain players would rather not waste another 100 hours to reach and not every player has 100+ hours to dedicate to a single video game because of jobs, other matters to handle, etc. and thus would rather experience everything in a single playthrough or two (considering New Game Plus-exclusive content).
• There has been a debate among fans regarding the direction of the protagonist going forward. One side prefers how it is with Hello, [Insert Name Here], the protagonist being mostly silent, and varying tones of dialogue options, all of which fit the role-playing aspect. The other side would rather have the name entry taken out entirely and the protagonist's character be fully defined and properly participating in the story, considering the subseries' own Broken Base over Canon Name (except for the 2 duology where the names are clearly established in-game to begin with) and said side's feel that the current implementation poses more problems in storytelling due to Narm induced by the sillier player-inputted names and jarring interactions caused by the protagonist never speaking outside of dialogue options, voiced one-liners, or Voice Grunting. Naturally, the former camp thinks the latter's idea as unfair to the players already used to this system, while the latter thinks the former is part of the writing and enjoyment problem.
• Whether the next Persona mainline game should keep the high school setting or take place in college/workplace (or just basically have all main characters be adults entirely) is up for debate with heaps of Fan Myopia or Values Dissonance. Some conclude that it would be impractical to have the calendar system for a working adult protagonist given Japan's notoriously long work hours, but others argue that having an adult protagonist would be a fresh approach for the series. The same controversy applies for whether to keep confining the main country location to strictly Japan or take place in another country entirely.
• Prior to the modern ports, there was a debate whether just the idea of multiplatform port of the (mainline) Persona games was a good idea or not. The issue possibly got widespread since the announcement of Joker's inclusion in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate and it only got heated over time until then. Basically, fans that preferred the games to be PlayStation exclusive hated the idea, called out the wishful fans without access to those games as "port beggars", and wished that ports would never happen, while non-PlayStation fans interested in actually playing the games called out the PlayStation fans as rude gatekeepers, brought up many issues to justify their wishes (from not wanting to buy a console just for one game (and good luck for the older ones) to being against emulation), and had to state that they refused to associate themselves with the Twitter spammers that gave this kind of fan bad rep to begin with.
• Except for the second and fourth games, where the names Tatsuya Suou & Yu Narukami are virtually agreed upon, the fanbase tends to get into rather intense debates about the names of the protagonists of Persona 3 & Persona 5, although nowadays, it's pretty much universally agreed by fans to be Makoto Yuki and Ren Amamiya respectively.

These entries feel super complainy to me. Any thoughts?

Some of the details here feel more like the troper's own opinions and experiences honestly. I'm not into Persona, but from my research, the only major Broken Base is regarding the main character and their name (and it seems like subbullet 2 and 5 are talking about the same thing). Maybe the high school vs college debate could count too, but I don't know. The subbullet about whether Persona should be multi-platform just seems like complaining about gatekeeping that's a Vocal Minority at best.

Edited by CanuckMcDuck1 on Apr 6th 2024 at 8:49:56 AM

So can I get rid of the “subbullet about whether Persona should be multi-platform” then?

That sounds like some unneeded Console Wars discussion shoved into Persona. Worth cutting.

Agreed. It should be cut.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Apr 6th 2024 at 1:44:27 PM

I’m wondering if this entry on Pokémon: The Series can be trimmed down at all, as while it’s majorly divisive moment it has four lengthy paragraphs. Let know if any parts of this entry can be deleted:

• Possibly the most divisive moment in the anime's entire run comes from Alain defeating Ash in the Kalos League finals, after nearly the entire fanbase was certain Ash would win the Kalos Leauge:
  • Those against it felt that after the large build-up of Ash-Greninja's extraordinary power in-story and in promotional materials Ash should have beaten Alain. These fans also argue Alain's subsequent action of allowing Ash to get kidnapped by Team Flare and having a breakdown upon learning Lysandre's full goals would've made far more sense if Alain had lost and let jealousy get the better of him. Those in favor of Ash losing point out that Alain was a pretty strong Trainer and that his Charizard, the one to beat Ash-Greninja, had already proven himself more than justified in his win, having gone toe to toe with many other strong opponents prior to the League (the fights with the Legendaries and the ten consecutive Mega Evolution battles come to mind). This camp feels that Alain ending up with nothing for being an Unwitting Pawn would be Karmic Overkill, and Alain's arc works better by showing he could still obtain victory through legitimate means.
  • Does Ash losing to Alain in the League taint the entire series up until then? On one hand, detractors feel that it makes Ash's badge quest, desire to train his Pokemon to be better, and master Greninja's unique powers completely pointless as his Pokémon still weren't strong enough when he needed it most, and the fact Ash never uses any of his Kalos captures in sanctioned battles after the series conclude can make it feel like they contributed nothing to Ash's growth in the long run. Others argue this kind of mindset is absurdly cynical and misses the entire point of the franchise. Defenders point out Ash has always captured to make friends first with how well they do in battles being a secondary priority. Furthermore, fans feel that the Team Flare arc still provided long-term pay off to characters such as Clemont, Alain, and Bonnie, with the series as a whole still providing some of the best battles in the entire franchise, a surprising amount of Character Development for Ash, shaking up the formula by introducing a (one-sided) Love Interest that gives Ash his first kiss on the lips in the entirety of the anime in Serena, and the Team Flare climax being the true build-up of the series. It really depends on how you feel about the overall Myth Arc of XY&Z.
  • Ash being considered by Alain and the series' narrative as the better trainer despite losing every battle between the two. Some fans agree with such a notion since it showed how Alain's hollow pursuit of power allowed him to be manipulated by Lysandre, failed to help Mairin despite being a big part of his motivation, and made him complicit in the disaster caused by Team Flare. Others, on the other hand, point out that Ash being a better-adjusted person than Alain has nothing to do with their respective ability as trainers, find such reasoning an insulting excuse and a weak attempt at preemptive damage control over the inevitable backlash that was going to follow over Ash losing yet another league, and refuse to consider Ash a better trainer than Alain until Ash is able to defeat him at least once.
  • Moreover, did Alain deserve to keep his Kalos Championship title in spite of his role in Team Flare's plan? Defenders of Alain feel it's unfair to strip away Alain's title considering Team Flare's plan was only tangentially related to the league, Alain immediately turned on Lysandre upon learning Lysandre's full goals, and Alain had already demonstrated a mastery of Mega Evolution and battling, with these fans arguing Ash winning the Leauge by Alain getting disqualified would've been far more patronizing than an outright loss. Other fans, however, point out that even if Alain was manipulated he still knowingly partook in criminal activities, such as his idle reaction to Ash’s abduction. Those against Alain keeping his title also cite that the difficulty of using Mega Evolution is for the most part an Informed Flaw and that Alain's Mega Ring was a gift from Lysandre, making it impossible for this camp to separate Alain's battle prowess from his terrorist affiliation.

The third and fourth paragraphs talk about stuff outside Ash losing the battle, and could be condensed into a few sentences. The only one that should probably be keeped is the first sub-paragraph, since it actually explains the divide.

What about the second paragraph

I’m not into the fandom enough to understand how one major loss destroys the series in the eyes of some fans. Someone more into the anime could have the final word, but I think chunks outside the first paragraph could be trimmed to keep the main topic of the broken base.