Teenagers Having Sex

I don't know the Zen rules, but my first thought is that trying to "loophole" them is bound to failure; my second is that any form of release when he's supposed to be abstaining is going to cause him problems, but if she doesn't have to abstain then there's no issue and no loophole. As to the liking, that varies from person to person, and he's supposed to be inexperienced. Man, that's an easy question to answer. IMO, yes it should be fine - if they are remaining in a relationship, and this isn't just a bad time to use sex as an emotional bandage. ... What. Wow. Not all teenage boys are squicked out at the thought of going down on a girl, you know. Not sure exactly what to do, I'd grant, but that doesn't mean he'd be against the idea (or maybe he'd even suggest it himself). You're assuming she's never masturbated or done anything sexual before at all.

edited 7th May '15 2:06:43 AM by BlueNinja0

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

And assuming she's never had an erotic dream.

Which is possible (I know someone who didn't have those until 19), but not very likely (in fact, I'd say it's probably really rare). Especially if she's at all interested in sexual stuff which she seems to be. Though erotic dreams don't always end with an orgasm, so there is that.

And I do agree that as far as Buddhism is concerned, trying to find loopholes would automatically cause the attempt to count as a failure, if it was about about avoiding "kama" (desire) altogether. But alas, that is what we call "asceticism", and it is not about that but rather about the precept to avoid illicit sex (or "sensual misconduct", as it seems to be called too), which makes it into a simple "does it or does it not count" question rather than anything about any loopholes.

Of course, it might appear to be a loophole to the characters. Flawed perception is a human thing.

Oh yay, someone brought in the Not All Men card!

But my experience is that many guys are squicked out at going down on a girl. One of the dumbest reasons I've heard are "I'll only go down on a girl who shaves/waxes because PUBIC HAIR ON GIRLS IS ICK." See, California is really fucking Catholic outside of LA or San Francisco, so sex ed is spotty and with that comes the overlapping gender-related baggage.

If your experience with guys giving oral is different from mine, then props to you for living in a much less repressed area.

Re orgasms: Tropers, you are REALLY underestimating the lack of knowledge regarding female sexuality. Grown women who masturbate or are in healthy relationships have gone a LONG time without orgasming, or they only have the mild/imperceptible ones and then they freak out when a giant one happens. If it doesn't look/feel like what people do in movies or porn, or what friends tell about their orgasms, there is a very high chance that a teenager in her first relationship won't know what to expect with herself.

edited 7th May '15 11:11:06 AM by Sharysa

Yeah, true that. I would even say "you caught us there", but alas I think I'm educated enough regarding myself and a comment along the lines of "you caught them there" would probably be a bit rude.

Anyway, yes, you are right. Female orgasms vary in intensity from barely perceivable to what we could describe as "an explosion". And though actually getting there (assuming there's competent help) isn't as hard as certain people say it is, it's also not as easy as certain other people say it is. And it also varies from person to person, and varies greatly at that.

Of course, even without getting there it can be pleasant enough, and certain women even prefer not to get there at all. But it is far more common to want to get there and not be able to than it is to be able and not want to (well, assuming it's fully consensual stuff and all that).

Also, people generally react better to certain styles of stimulation (what sorts, varies from person to person), or at certain times or places, and when "in the mood" (and about that much could be written).

Point is, saying "female orgasm" is like saying "car". It's kind of broad, not everyone can have one, and all the parameters vary greatly from model to model ... and not everyone has a monster truck (which is what you can generally see in porn, in case some of you didn't get it).

But yeah, thanks for being blunt about that, Sharysa; it would have probably taken me much longer to do the same, if I even got to it, had you not done that.

It's double standard only if he's not shaving, and trust me, nothing ruins the moment like "He he... hairball".

Also, if I may add, going down on a girl can be tiring.

"what the complete, unabridged, 4k ultra HD fuck with bonus features" - Mark Von Lewis

It's a lot easier for dudes to get away with pubic hair thanks to the reality of "shaving around a hole" for women versus "shaving next to a stick." Also, sorry for any rudeness that my previous post might have lurking around.

Back on topic: Given that Cindy was explicitly stated to be from a devout family, it's likely that she wouldn't know that much personally about sex. More liberal friends? Sure. Parents who understand the value of sex-ed as well as being devout? Definitely possible. But a LOT of Catholics at least attempt to hold to the rule of "no sex or masturbation before marriage," so unless she's got a support network of friends or adult figures who can fill in the blanks or affectionately remind her that they haven't gone blind from their less-devout habits, it's very likely that she just doesn't masturbate as a rule. Not because she's repressed or misinformed, but because she just believes that as a Catholic, it would be wrong.

So yeah, if she got good sex-ed and her family is one of the nicer devout families, she could definitely be the one taking initiative in her relationship, but she'd most likely be all fumbly and awkward while she's at it.

edited 7th May '15 2:29:16 PM by Sharysa

I'm sorry to hear that you've dated so many idiots. I can only sigh and shake my head about how they don't know what they're missing. I can't disagree with the shoddy education around the US, but IIRC the main characters we're discussing are supposed to be European. Presumably they would have less different gendered baggage to handle, and we already know they get a good sex-ed class, despite her more conservative parents. My sample size in this case might be biased, but of the *stops to count* five women I've had sexual relations with, only one of them didn't know how to recognize her own orgasms, and all of them were under 21 when we started. I fully admit I don't know how experienced Cindy is supposed to be, but I don't think it was said that she's a virgin or is completely inexperienced, just that she hasn't been with Jake yet. But thanks for bringing it up with the explanation, most of the advice I've been giving in this thread is quite firmly colored by my own experiences. ... they do? Because all the Catholics I knew in high school were sexually active before I was, some of them by years. I thought we'd already established both Cindy and Jake are fumbly and awkward.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Actually, I think it's been at the very least implied that she is a virgin (not like that actually matters much in the grand scheme of things, but whatever, some people seem to think it's important). So there's that. Though there was nothing about how experienced she is or isn't as far as any experiences in that area go.

And the Catholics Sharysa wrote about are the parents. Because, you know, there's nothing like guilt-tripping your child to make it think that anything sexual—including procreation—is evil, to make the kid a better parent in the future ... oh, wait, that's a stupid plan. But yeah, at least some parents do that, even though it is stupid.

And getting back to the girl, to be honest, even if she were completely inexperienced, it wouldn't make her the first girl who never really did anything before and then offered to blow the guy as a "consolation prize" of some sort. Nor the last. And if anything, because Catholics place more importance on virginity than on chastity, oral sex seems like a rather fun (in more than one way) loophole for teenagers brought up by such parents (though there are also teens who don't care about finding loopholes and just ... frolic).

And yeah, some kids are really active really early as far as sexuality goes, regardless of their or their parents' religion (though, to be honest, since most kids are automatically supposed to believe in the same thing as their parents "because because", there doesn't seem to be any point in saying that they actually are genuine members of a given religion until they prove it with their own behaviour). I knew one who got pregnant when she was either 12 or 13 (I don't know her exact birthday date, so I'm basing this off of general info), and age of consent notwithstanding (because it's legal rubbish) it was quite consensual on her part. To be honest, I wasn't all that behind this, but I at least waited until a few years later before abandoning the ability to see unicorns.

I have dated a couple of jerks, but not of that particular sort. I tend to find out someone's sex habits because many people are open about their opinions, and so I know which dumbasses to avoid.

So I haven't technically dated many people, but that's because I've done a LOT of weeding-out.

edited 7th May '15 10:02:42 PM by Sharysa

@Kazeto

Okay thanks for the detailed answer for the illicit sex question. So far it seems that Jake & Cindy are in the clear, maybe they have a little conversation about it. As far as giving & received is considered, I don't think it should be an issue since there is no coercion involved, permission is sought and consent given. I want Cindy as the giver simply because she's the more daring & curious of the two. And yes as you said Cindy would be doing something for Jake. Thanks for the pointers.

Good point on how male genitalia is seen as "less dirty" and the whole entitlement aspect where girls are supposed to do stuff for the boys and be more "submissive". Cindy is a dom for sure but not in a negative sense.

@Sharysa

I am well aware of the double standard and would want to avert it. In fact I plan on to having Jake say that he'll be sure to return the favor and imply that he's be giving her oral (once he's done some research on how do it). Fingering seems a bit mild at this point but I might consider it (they could masturbate each other?).

Giving a girl oral may squick out lesser men but Jake's kind of an old school romantic and kind of emotional. He feels it his duty to return the favor as I said before (otherwise it wouldn't be fair). He goes from being nervous at being naked in front of a girl to confident enough to do all sorts of things for and to her.

@Blue Ninja 0

Well as I understand a loophole is no longer required. Jake is inexperienced yes but Cindy is the one who gives him the confidence to try new & exciting things. He can only do them with her though. No emotional bandage involved and both are in a fairly stable relationship, it's only the physical aspect that was missing.

By the time the "scene" occurs, Cindy is familiar with what an orgasm is and has masturbated. She does so while hospitalized out of sheer boredom and to get a "high" of sorts.

@Wolf1066

Speaking of dreams. What do blind people "see"? Or do they remember scents and textures more vividly than anything visible?

@Kazeto

Loopholes can be a subject of discussion between the characters but as per the information you provided, there are no loopholes.

Good metaphor for orgasm's in general being like a car. Porn is obviously only about Roadsters, monster trucks and spaceships

This is all very informative. I suppose I could plan Cindy's preferences in my head and have a one off blink & you'll miss reference to it. Not what the story is about after all

@Sharysa

Yeah that is definitely a matter of perception and where you're from. You could say my world is more idealized and liberal which in turn might inspire real people to be the same.

I will consider your points on female orgasm's though. Though the intensity and pleasure derived from Cindy's first orgasm would be a minuscule point in the story.

Cindy is more casually Catholic but even her parents are fairly modern. If anything the'd feel Jake was a bad influence without knowing him better. She's smart and has a history of looking up "inappropriate material" and is given a good sex-ed in the form of Josie's class that I mentioned before. However like you said, realistically she'd be fumbly and awkward about it which I plan to make explicit. She shouldn't be female Christian Grey.

At this point the story feels like Jake & Cindy's sexual awakening with some monsters thrown in at the end,

@Blue Ninja 0

By virtue of being European they are also more open towards talking about sexual stuff since EU media typically has relatively lax rules regarding nudity and sex but are harsher on violence. The opposite of America, which is ironic because you guys have so much sexuality in your everything anyway. Back in Europe, France I believe is quite liberal in terms of sex in media.

@Kazeto

Cindy is a virgin and as mentioned before her only sexual experiences had been masturbation while in the hospital and any technical knowledge provided by the sex-ed class. The "scene" mentioned is breaking the physical barrier.

Cindy is more in the frolic class but I don't like the way you described it as a "consolation prize". Though I suppose she does do him a favor but ends up enjoying the experience. She is obviously a bit frightened during the process but ultimately enjoys it, not in an unrealistic OMG! SO AMAZING! I WANT IT AGAIN AND AGAIN! but in a more measured way. But I don't either off them to be "eww! gross!" about anything they do to each other though I understand that may be the expectation for some

One or two twists in a story is fine, Shyamlan-esque even. But please don't turn the poor thing into a Twizzler!

Research? Experimentation! Since she had sight before this happened, presumably her dreams could still possess vision, of things she's seen or could visualize. And since she eventually gets vision-bots through her power, I don't see how her blindness is anything but temporary. I thought there were some at the beginning, too.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Yeah, blind people vary heavily on their dreams and mental imagery. If you were blind from birth or early childhood, you won't have much ability to imagine things or dream. But if you were older, then you'd have already been having dreams and imagining vision-oriented stuff for a while.

It's okay for everyone to be squicked out by anything and this should be respected. There's only a problem if that courtesy isn't extended to others.