Ambiguous Name (Alt Names crowner 6.11.2015): Webcomic Time

Yeah, Webcomic Time and Comic-Book Time are examples of something we get a lot on this wiki: trope names/descriptions that were written by people who are primarily interested in a certain genre or medium, and so didn't consider that the same trope turns up elsewhere.

I'd definitely vote in favor of renames.

This is actually the exception, rather then the rule. As a rule, most webcomics (or most webcomics I read anyway) do not make a reference to real life at all or try to "stay current" to it. They just so happen to be serial fiction that is pictorial rather then word-based. Most webcomics take a lot less cues from the way traditional comic books represent time, and a lot more cues from how written works represent time.

I'd say that's a Sister Trope.

Webcomic Time:

• The 1st issue is published on 01/01/2001. The events it describes also happen on 01/01/2001. The author wants to describe a contemporary situation, set in the reader's present.
• The 100th issue is published on 10/10/2010. The events it describes happen on 02/01/2001, due to schedule slippage. Now the author's creating a period piece, set in the reader's past.
• Basically, over the course of the webcomic's run, the concept changed from "a contemporary story set in the present" to "a period piece set in the past".

Unnamed Sister Trope:

• The 1st issue is published on 01/01/2001. The events it describes happen on 01/01/3001 or 01/01/1001.
• The 100th issue is published on 10/10/2010. The events it describes happen on 02/01/1001 or 01/01/3001, due to schedule slippage.
• The author always wanted to tell a story set in the past or the future. The amount of time that passed in real life and in the story wasn't the same — but the main concept of when the work is set hasn't changed.

E.g. the Harry Potter books were always supposed to be set in the near past. It just slowly changed from "5 years ago" to "10 years ago" due to schedule slippage. But the main concept remained unchanged.

The inconsistencies between in-story time and real life time happen all the time in various media. It's not always unintentional; a lot of time it's done on purpose.

That's not quite true, at least if we're talking about long-running superhero comic universes like Marvel and DC. As I explained earlier, the principle of "Marvel Time" (which was also adopted by DC circa, I think, the 70-80s) means that time does progress, albeit very slowly.

The modern Marvel Universe has been around for about 50 years, and ~10 years have passed in-universe. During that time, a lot of characters have canonically aged. Peter Parker turned from a nerdy highschooler into a married (retconned into "almost married") adult photographer/scientist. Johnny Storm similarly grew up from a teen brat into a young adult celebrity. Sue Storm went from 20-something aspiring actress to a mature mother of two. Several "classes" of X-Men have graduated and reached adulthood. The same thing happens in DC: The first Robin Dick Grayson became an adult man called Nightwing, Kid Flash has become Flash, Silver Age villain Captain Boomerang aged into a balding middle aged man with an adult son by the time of Identity Crisis, etc.

Agreed.

As I understand, the difference is that Batman's adventures aren't set in the 30-40s when the comic started; it's rather implied that he started protecting Gotham in the 2000s.

Let's start brainstorming possible renames! For Comic-Book Time I'd say we just make Sliding Timescale (the current redirect for Comic-Book Time) into its main name (we can even keep Comic-Book Time as a redirect!).

I suggest maybe we should discuss specific examples (e.g. webcomics), and whether they match one or another type of timescale.

Schedule Slip has nothing to do with any of these concepts. For the purpose of this discussion, consider a serial medium that has a new issue every day. Schedule Slip only applies to when a day is missed, and is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

The Harry Potter series never experienced Schedule Slip.

edited 10th Jun '15 9:46:34 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Rjin & AD: To me, when the work is set relative to the production date, or whether a work takes place within "our" timeline, is not a meaningful distinction.

To me, "Webcomic Time" is simply: "the timescale of individual events in a work is shorter than the production time due to the work's format, yet time is acknowledged as having passed." This definition allows for Time Skips to bridge the gaps developed.

"Comic Book Time", by contrast, is "time has officially not passed in a work even though it should have because of the numerous events that have occurred in the work." Or that not enough time has passed to be consistent with all of the events that haven't yet been declared Canon Discontinuity. (Essentially, the principle that all events within a particular work are canonical to that work unless otherwise disclaimed.)

Raven: technology and fashion chaning with the production year, regardless of the internal timescale (or lack thereof) is already covered under Long-Runner Tech Marches On. Webcomic Time, and even Comic Book Time, can be done (and the former often is done) without changing the in-universe tech/fashion dynamic outside of Time Skips to avert LRTMO.

However, if the (present) calender in a Longrunner reflects the production year and if there is no acknowledgement of a Time Skip to explain the discrepency, (even vaguely,) or if Year Zero always happened Exactly Exty Years Ago, (or from now,) then we have a Sliding Timescale.

This latter is (usually) present in CBT,^note as often is the former but the former is not a requirement, but CBT also requires that all of the events from Year Zero to the in-universe "now" took place within a non-shifting span of time; and becomes noticable when the sum time of those events reaches a critical duration, i.e. the sense that the sum total of events couldn't have (all) happened in the short amount of time implied.

So I'm saying that Sliding Timescale and "Comic Book Time" are two separate yet related Tropes.

As a side note, a series with Negative Continuity may have a Sliding Timescale, but it would not take place in "Comic Book Time" due to the fact that there is neither an overall Series Goal nor a long conflict between two (or more) factions. In CBT, not only does such a goal/conflict exist, but there have been several attempts to alter the respective dynamic such that if time flowed per the universe's rules, (or per our rules if no such rules are stated,) then there's be no way to fit all of those events between Year Zero and the in-universe present.

In sum, WCT, CBT, ST, and LRTMO, as I understand them, are related and not mutually exclusive Tropes:

• Webcomic Time can best be described as "Events take longer production time to produce/distribute than In-Universe time to occur." Think of it as Year Outside, Hour Inside with "In-Universe" being "inside" and "release date" being "outisde". The opposite effect is usually accomplished with Time Skips.
  • So perhaps Year In-Production, Hour In-Universe would be a good rename title.^note And I submit that this is an exception to Everythings Worse With Snowclones, due to the fact that the name describes the mechanic behind the trope, even though the time ratio is but one of many used, though the same is the same for YIHO/YOHI.
  • Example: 24 is "Year In-Production, Day In-Universe", with individual seasons being connected by Time Skips.)
• Sliding Timescale is when the series' Year Zero is relocated to match a timescale desired by the work's creators/audience, usually the latter's "present day". The Refugee from Time is the result of a period-based character being exempt from the slide.
  • In effect: "Time In-Real Life + Exty = Time In-Universe" is Always True at some point in each Story Arc for a constant value of "Exty"^note could be positive, negative, or zero, regardless of plot progression and/or Time Skips.
• Comic Book Time is when the in-universe time is less than the (presumed) sum of time required to have passed for the of events having canonically taken place within the in-universe to occur.^note If more time has passed, then an unannounced Time Skip is implied to have occurred. (e.g. Ash Ketchum traveling (mostly Walking) across 6 regions (1 region twice) within 11.5 months tops as of Best Wishes.) (Needs A Better Name: perhaps "Plot-Event Relativity".)
  • Not Allowed to Grow Up is a Sub-Trope to CBT where the in-universe time is at or near zero. CBT would be a case where in-universe time is positive but insufficient.
• Long-Runner Tech Marches On is when the technology/fashion/etc. of a "Present Day" series evolves with production time/trends in the real world, even though the in-universe time is shorter and/or the setting and/or other genre conventions would disallow such evolution otherwise. While often a companion to the above tropes, it isn't necessary to them.

edited 14th Jun '15 5:36:40 PM by DonaldthePotholer

I'm having a hard time seeing Webcomic Time as a trope. Does any fictional work line up perfectly with the passage of time in real life without just skipping things?

Wouldn't that make a movie that quickly runs through several days in the course of the hour and half it takes to watch a trope? Or is that a trope? Is there a trope for some conversations in a movie taking several minutes while the next scene is given a "six months later"?

Comic-Book Time is a trope because it's a strange narrative device that's essentially a running retcon. Webcomic Time just sounds like the in-universe passage of time not lining up with the passage of time in real life, which sounds like it would apply to pretty much anything.

edited 16th Jun '15 1:08:45 AM by Jokubas

Time Tropes

edited 16th Jun '15 4:10:06 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

That first example strikes me as an Inversion of Webcomic Time. In essence, your example is "Year In-Universe, Hour On-Screen," versus WCT being "Year In-Production, Hour In-Universe".

That being said, WCT is often identified in Episodic Media (e.g. Comic Books, Animated and Live-Action Serials, and, as the Trope says, Webcomics,) due to their episodic nature allowing for a comparison between the time of the in-universe arc and the time of the release of all of the installments of that arc. It's not really recognized in media that are more self-contained (e.g. books, movies, and video games). But, that said, it still exists in movies as you just pointed out. (Due to their interactive nature, video games often define time in reference to Event Flags.)

With regards to your core question, from the Trope page:

So, even though we've Seen It A Million Times, it may still be a Trope. And I still think it is.

Now, granted, since it is an Omnipresent Trope, we'll have to start treating it like one, restricting our "examples" to the general conventions per medium and notable exceptions per medium.

Actually, the index Jokubas is looking for is Plot Time, with the other specific example cited being an example of a Time Skip.

edited 16th Jun '15 6:51:00 PM by DonaldthePotholer

Hmm... after reading the latest discussing, I'm convinced that both Comic-Book Time and Webcomic Time need media-neutral^note that sounded a bit politically correct renames. Let's brainstorm them!

I kind of agree with Donald The Potholer that Sliding Timescale might be a different trope from Comic-Book Time. However, are there enough examples of that? One that I can think of is Judge Dredd: the comics are set exactly 122 years in the future from each issue's release.

There's also one more distinction that I think might warrant two different tropes:

• Time never moves, nobody ages, everything is set in a permanent "now". Example: Archie comics.
• Time moves but reeeally slowly, and it takes a while for characters to age. Time passage is never referenced explicitly (e.g. no one says exactly how many months have passed in-universe during a real life year), but rather through mentions, references, and noticeable changes in characters' appearance. Example: Marvel and DC^note (pre-Nu52. I'm not sure how time moves after the reboot) comics.

edited 19th Jun '15 9:58:51 AM by Rjinswand

Since we have the trope Long-Runner Tech Marches On, we should probably remove all the talk about technology/fashions/what-have-you not keeping pace from these trope descriptions, and just have a link to Long-Runner Tech Marches On somewhere near the bottom of the description.

As for Comic-Book Time, I think we should just change the name to Sliding Time Scale so we don't have such a media-specific name. While you could make a distinction between Comic-Book Time and Sliding Time Scale based on CBT fitting way too many events into too small a time frame, it feels like "the events depicted/described in the story happen in an unreasonably short period of time" could very well be its own trope, independent of these other time passage tropes (Cartoonland Time seems kinda like that trope, but would need a better name and description).

edited 21st Jun '15 8:20:46 AM by RavenWilder

Motion to break off the discussion on Comic-Book Time into its own Thread.

Also, Motion for Crowner on the proposal for whether to rename Webcomic Time.

I agree with both motions.

I second that seconding of the motions.

I tried hollering for this crowner earlier without posting. Guess I'll have to holler to this post with the link.

Anyway, Crowner for the Single Prop of Renaming.

Sorry, I am not following TRS lately. Attached the crowner.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

"Yeah, Webcomic Time and Comic-Book Time are examples of something we get a lot on this wiki: trope names/descriptions that were written by people who are primarily interested in a certain genre or medium, and so didn't consider that the same trope turns up elsewhere."

—**cough Yandere cough**—

Have we concluded that we should rename this trope instead of cut it?

edited 12th Jul '15 6:06:26 PM by gallium

Called crowner in favour of renaming and hooked in an alt names crowner. Needs some options, though.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Only name I can think of is Faster Plot Time. Any other ideas?

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

What about Plot Time Dilation?

So, to get things going, I've added the two suggested names. If anyone has anything better, feel free to add it.

Both of these tropes desperately need some clarification, IMHO. They get confused waaaay too often. As far as I see it, here's the trope distinctions:

• Comic-Book Time: A series is running for many years, and while the years & decades go by, the ages of the characters stay the same.
• Webcomic Time: A series has a short period of time happen in it In-Universe, but the time it took to make the series out-of-universe was much longer. Often leads to dated references, etc. (?)

I think theses two tropes need to have their descriptions edited to make the difference between them clearer.

We're doing terrible on the name proposals, and I think it's partly because we aren't sure what the definitions are. :-/

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Yeah, we may need to clear up the descriptions if the crowner's not reaching consensus.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

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