deconstructing dark fantasy

I was just wondering, has anyone thought of a way to deconstruct dark fantasy? How would one go about it? Just Wondering.

edited 5th Nov '14 7:07:50 PM by Coinage

It'd help if you had some typical Dark Fantasy tropes, or storylines, or character archetypes you had in mind.

Hmmm. What are some standard tropes for dark fantasy?

Here are some tropes. 1) All magic (whether genuine sorcery, or sufficiently advanced technology) is evil, and will probably not be scientifically studied because of its inherent danger. 2) Any wizards will be evil 3) The standard fantasy setting is "The Dung Ages" where the worst aspects of medieval life are emphasized. 4) A genocidal, expanding evil empire. 5) All Aristocrats are Evil. All peasants are morons. All the men are rapists, and all the women will be raped. No one seems capable of not screwing each other. 6) Any and all supernatural and/or praeternatural entities such as gods, angels, fairies, etc. will be evil, stupid, incompetent, or some combination thereof. 7) Any and all religious, ideological or philosophical institution(whether supernatural or secular, theistic or non-theistic ) will be corrupt, completely wrong, and probably actively evil. 8) Anyone who is even called a "Hero" will be, at best, a violent, drunkard, psychologically unstable killer

edited 5th Nov '14 11:39:54 PM by Coinage

It's difficult to deconstruct genres that are already deconstructions of something themselves. A logical way to subvert the common Dark Fantasy tropes is to make them Lighter and Softer, but this would just take it back closer to Standard Fantasy Setting, which it's a deconstruction of.

I guess one way would be to establish a Crapsack World, and then show that you don't need to be a ruthless Anti-Hero to survive in it. You could use an idealist Knight in Shining Armor type of hero, who is not fueled by revenge or hate but something more positive, like honor, justice or love.

Truth be told, I have no idea if this could be actually made to work; you might just end up creating an annoying fantasy version of Soapbox Sadie, whose M.O. is to talk the monster to death.

edited 6th Nov '14 7:36:36 AM by Paradisesnake

I don't really see the point in subverting it. Taking all of those points to their natural conclusions... I think you'd end up with a Light Fantasy.

Honestly? I think it'd be a combination of Cinderella and SleepingBeauty. Here's how I'd do it:

1) The magic is eventually studied, to the point that its inherent evil can be negated. (Two wrongs make a right, ha!) It's really very bad strategy to not study your enemy's strengths, after all.

2) Magic may be corrupting and evil, but that too can be negated by sufficient Good.

3) and 4) If you life in the worst aspects of Medieval life long enough, eventually you want a change. (Which might be how those kingdoms got started - one of the King's ancestors decided enough was enough, and that's the line of Badasses that produced Prince Spider-Man in the sequels.)

5) A form of religion that declares all of those to be Sins takes root, for more or less the same reason as points 3 and 4.

6) They start listening to what the humans have to say more (throw in a bit of [[Disney\Aladdin The Genie]] here). The supernatural entities grow up a little. Ooorrr an Eric shows up and shoves an old galleon into enough of them that they start behaving themselves.

7) Evil is self-defeating in general. The evil institution eventually dies out, down to its last member (which is fine, because there's only one Angelina Jolie to go around to play her).

8) The definition of a 'Hero' changes. The main character could even be the one doing the changing.

...See, I think the manga Dororo covers a few of these points, from a distinctly Japanese viewpoint. Hyakki-maru is certainly Heroic, but becomes more jaded as time goes by; nonetheless, his actions (running around and killing evil spirits) definitely make the land a safer place, which sets the stage for a later era.

If we consider the fact that Dark Fantasy seems to be a deconstruction of High Fantasy, then I imagine that one way to deconstruct Dark Fantasy would be to reconstruct High Fantasy.

Look at the original tropes, the ones that had to be deconstructed to create Dark Fantasy, and try to put them back together.

Of course, I think it's easier to take it something apart than putting it back together, so...

So we are, in fact, reconstructing High Fantasy rather than deconstructing Dark Fantasy.

Yeah, it looks that way.

I, for one, am all for a reconstruction of High Fantasy.

To jump-start that discussion (and any potential stories) here are a few possible qualities of Reconstructed High Fantasy:

• Magic isn't good or evil — just the user. There might be some cases of Fridge Horror, but a magic-user would have to actively search for them.
• The Empire might appear evil to the ones being conquered, but they have genuinely good intentions.
• There may be Jerkass Gods, but there are also powerful beings who actively work against those gods and help the mortals. Maybe not to the point of fixing every problem the mortals have, but enough to keep the bad gods from messing things up.
• To avoid Necromancy, cremation becomes the standard for funerals.
• A hero who's genuinely good, but recognizes that it doesn't always fit perfectly. So rather than being a source of Incorruptible Pure Pureness, he's more of a pragmatist who makes things better by helping out where he can.
• The World may Always Be Doomed, but more in the sense of "the universe will eventually go cold and die out." (To be clear, it looks like our universe is going this way — in trillions of years.)
  • The same can be said for any time someone's death is predicted. Everyone dies eventually, and (most of) the characters understand that.

And it's not hard to do those, either. I'm already incorporating those points (and more!) in some form in my various projects.

edited 10th Nov '14 7:08:45 AM by AwSamWeston

The only other way I see of doing it would be to have one or more characters believing in the tropes, and acting on them, while another character or set of characters think this is outrageous, and saying so. Which would even be a fine way of showing how dated and cliched Dark Fantasy has become.

Perhaps a setting where Darker and Edgier is looming on the horizon-and everyone's fighting tooth-and-nail to not go that way.

Okay, now we're just going meta.

Speaking of which, does "meta" count as "deconstruction"?

Meta, if I'm understanding the term right, is just acknowledging the trope, genre, or medium the story is being played out in.

Deconstruction as we commonly interpret it, and I know some literature major will probably bite my head off for this, is taking a story-telling device, such as a trope, character archtype, setting, plotline, and having it play out realistically instead of as typical of that kind of story.

This should most definitely not be confused with Darker and Edgier, though they are often related because the frequent target of deconstructions tend to be the more fantastic and upbeat stories for whom adherence to reality is generally a secondary issue.

For example the common trope of the leader of a justified rebellion against a tyrant king usually results in the leader becoming the new king and leading the kingdom to an era of peace and prosperity. A common deconstruction is that it turns out the new king, while good at fighting a war, is a horrible administrator and drives the kingdom into economic ruin despite his good intentions. You only have to look throughout history to see how this is a logical outcome to a rebellion. This would usually be how the Dark Fantasy story plays out, not necessarily because it is realistic, but because it is the darkest outcome.

However, a just as valid outcome is that the new ruler is perfectly aware he doesn't have the brains or know-how to run the kingdom, and finds someone who can advise him on these matters. Perfect example here would be George Washington. While many predicted, or even hoped, the new United States would just collapse from infighting, Washington was smart enough to know that he wasn't smart to know how to run the government by himself. So he made a cabinet with the best and brightest minds he could get his hands on that steered the country to stability. This would be totally aversion of what a Dark Fantasy would do.

edited 11th Nov '14 5:43:05 PM by Parable

This is a slight tangent, but nevertheless: while I don't know how it's actually used, I would expect "meta" storytelling to be storytelling about storytelling; off the top of my head, two examples might be tropes or other elements of storytelling being plot-points (or otherwise addressed) in the story, or storytelling itself being the subject.

People tend to use it a bit more loosely than that, but that is at the core of the concept (see: Neil Gaiman's "storytelling is itself a kind of magic" themes, Jorge Luis Borges' "this story is about a story which is easily mistaken for something else, sometimes reality").

It would be kind of fun to read a deconstructed dystopia... I'm imagining a sort of farce where the protagonist tries to join the revolutionary organisation that Big Brother blames all their problems on (while the Secret Police get suspicious that s/he keeps arriving in the wake of major incidents), only to eventually discover it doesn't exist - it's just thousands of disgruntled government workers individually sabotaging official policy. Possibly up to and including the Shadow Council, who keep proposing and approving measures none of them actually like because they're all afraid someone else on the council will denounce them as a traitor.

That kinda reminds me of how slave owners in the American South were always in a state of mild fear that their slaves would rise up in open rebellion. The actual resistance consisted of working slowly, breaking tools, faking injuries, or at worst, running away.

Ironically, that dystopia was brought down by a rebellion led by the masters themselves.

Okay, so the idea would be to basically reconstruct High Fantasy.

I guess the question is this: is dark fantasy merely a deconstruction of high fantasy or epic fantasy? or; is dark fantasy a genre all on it's own?

It's a Sub-Genre. Genres are nothing more than patterns that are repeated often enough to be considered a group of their own. Being a Deconstruction doesn't make it any less a genre, for example Spaghetti Western is considered a deconstruction of The Western, but it's also a Sub-Genre of it.

I would say that Dark, High and Epic fantasies are their own genres at this point. While they definitely started off as sub-genres of 'Fantasy', and there's necessarily some overlap between them, they've all grown to the point where there are tropes specific to them.

Then I guess it would be possible to deconstruct dark fantasy.

I really like the idea of a group of philosophers, politicians, scientists and reformers who are just sick of the crapsack nature of a Dark Fantasy world and just fix something.

Oh wait, Brandon Sanderson beat me to the punch. It's called Mistborn.

i dont know if that really counts as a deconstruction.

it certainly doesnt come across as one, in any of the 4 books.

at least not for those reasons.

i mean, trying to fix the situation you're in so its preferable to what was there before isnt really a deconstructionist trait. its a pretty universal motivation, even in dark fantasy. they do eventually succeed, which is weird for dark fantasy though, so i suppose it might be?

edited 17th Nov '14 1:18:09 AM by Tarsen

I think we need to take a step back a little and first make note of what would typically happen in a dark fantasy story, along with why and how.

You come up with that list, then, Parable. The limits of what you can do in Fantasy are proportionate to the writer's creativity, and I think you could go down the list of Speculative Fiction Tropes and come up with High/Dark/Low/Urban/Science Fantasy spins on all of them with some effort.

...but the real question here, going off of what Coinage just said, seems to be: can the act of Reconstructing individual tropes act as a Deconstruction, or Deconstruct a story element or genre? I say yes, yes it can, and that you're looking at a Decon-Recon Switch when done properly. (The only thing being, you have to set up both of them in the same work, and that eats up wordcount that could otherwise be devoted to making it a good straight example of the thing you're trying to Decon or Recon - the plot and authorial intent risks overwhelming the characterization, if you're not careful.)

I didn't mean to imply that a reconstruction of High Fantasy was the only way to deconstruct Dark Fantasy; only that it was ONE possible way to do it. I'll try to explain what I meant with an example.

In some High/Epic Fantasy works, the rightful monarch is always kind, noble, and brave. When they are not, it might be because of some form of black magic, impostors, and/or a Deadly Decadent Court. A possible deconstruction of such a convention could lead us The Caligula, a monarch who has a rightful claim to the throne but who is as vicious as any Dark Lord.

Now, if we wanted to deconstruct The Caligula we just have to ask the same question we asked before: how would this trope play out with Real Life consequences?

One way to answer that question is: The ruler can be as corrupt and vicious as she wants, but the population will only take so much before they decide to strike back, therefore, there would be a revolution.

From here, we have several options:

• Deconstruction A (Lighter and Softer): The revolution succeeds and the country becomes a republic or something similar.

• Deconstruction B (Darker and Edgier): The revolution succeeds but the country adopts an even worse system of government, like a dictatorship.

• Reconstruction: The revolution succeeds and they overthrow the current ruler, but they choose to keep the monarchy in place. However, to avoid having another Caligula in the future, the country becomes a Constitutional Monarchy where the King or Queen no longer has absolute power over the country. Note: the monarch doesn't need to lose all the power they once held, there just has to be a fail-safe in place so things don't get as bad ever again.

Rinse and repeat for all the other "common" tropes found in Dark Fantasy.

edited 17th Nov '14 2:57:19 PM by Lorsty

Hmm, okay, then let's try this:

1) All magic (whether genuine sorcery, or sufficiently advanced technology) is evil, and will probably not be scientifically studied because of its inherent danger.

Reconstruction 1: Someone (probably some fantasy analogue of Roger Bacon, Ibn al-Haytham, or Isaac Newton) studies magic, and manages to uncover it's physical constants enough so that a much safer and more reliable form of "magic" can be used. A feud breaks out between the "new" magic and the "old" magic. New magic thrives, and life improves for everyone.

Reconstruction 2: Magic is so dangerous that it blows up the world. Everyone dies, except for those who have never even heard of magic survive. Magic is forgotten.

Reconstruction 3: Eventually, people just get so sick of using magic that they wipe out all magic users, and magic in general. All knowledge of magic is completely buried, and anyone using magic is understandably wiped out. Magic is actively suppressed.

edited 23rd Nov '14 8:12:28 PM by Coinage

Personally, I would not consider your second and third examples to be reconstructions. To me, they're just a (pretty awesome) deconstruction of Magic Is Evil.

The first one could be either, though. It could be a straight deconstruction of Magic is Evil; or it could be a reconstruction of Functional Magic after you deconstructed that into Magic is Evil.

Well, at least that's the way I see it. I might be wrong in my interpretation of Deconstruction and Reconstruction, hehe.