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Deadlock Clock: Jan 9th 2017 at 11:59:00 PM
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#51: Oct 28th 2014 at 9:01:57 AM

It is not quite an Omnipresent Trope so much as Chairs, even if it was an Omnipresent Trope we only list aversions to it and that already exists.

All that needs to be done, IMO, is add a line on Instant Death Bullet saying how in media headshots are almost always this.

edited 28th Oct '14 9:11:55 AM by Memers

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#52: Oct 28th 2014 at 9:10:41 AM

Yep, Mermers has the right of it. And we can add it to the headahot index as well for people looking for headshots that kill instantly.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
MrL1193 Since: Apr, 2013
#53: Oct 28th 2014 at 1:43:48 PM

I feel like we're all just repeating ourselves at this point, but I'll try one more time.

1. Instant Death Headshot is not Chairs because it is not true to Real Life—especially when characters treat head shots as if they are 100% lethal.

2. Shots that hit elsewhere on the body do not have this same distinction of always being lethal (and instantly to boot). That is, presumably, why we have Only a Flesh Wound (the assumption that shots that don't hit the head or heart aren't lethal) and 'Tis Only a Bullet in the Brain (the idea that only a particularly Bad Ass character could survive a head shot), is it not? It seems strange to me that we would have these tropes and yet not catalog the widespread rule that forms the basis for them. Yes, we have Instant Death Bullet, but I feel that the connection with head shots is so strong that it does warrant a subtrope.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#54: Oct 28th 2014 at 1:52:02 PM

People are not arguing that Instant Death Headshot is PSOC, but that it's the same thing as Instant Death Bullet. Nothing in your post justifies splitting it off - the storytelling significance is the same.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MrL1193 Since: Apr, 2013
#55: Oct 28th 2014 at 2:47:22 PM

The key distinction is not between head shots and Instant Death Bullets but between head shots and other types of shots. If an important character is hit elsewhere, you don't know his fate for certain, but if he's hit in the head, you know immediately that it's an Instant Death Bullet. It's the fact that the head shot is useful for immediately conveying to the audience that "This is an Instant Death Bullet; don't hold your breath waiting to see if he'll make it" that makes it distinct.

edited 28th Oct '14 2:48:37 PM by MrL1193

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#56: Oct 28th 2014 at 2:56:46 PM

Except that important characters do survive headshots sometimes; see 'Tis Only a Bullet in the Brain. That they die sometimes as well is either realism or plot fiat, but it's not its own trope.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#57: Oct 28th 2014 at 3:18:24 PM

[up][up]Mr L has it, here. Even works that avert Instant Death Bullet may still use Instant Death Headshot; if a work has people getting shot in the torso or extremities and possibly surviving, but any shot to the head is invariably and immediately fatal, then that's an example of Instant Death Headshot but not Instant Death Bullet.

Off the top of my head, the D-Day scene of Saving Private Ryan has one character going to considerable trouble to save a wounded soldier, and are successful in stabilizing him, only for him to get shot again — in the head this time, at which point he's immediately given up as dead. I'm sure there are other examples like that, as well.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#58: Oct 28th 2014 at 3:20:36 PM

That strikes me again as a case of Instant Death Bullet, seeing as that trope does not need to apply to every kind of gunshot ever.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#59: Oct 28th 2014 at 3:25:47 PM

I have actually seen that exact scenario play out with the last bullet places other than the head. It's an entirely different trope of an already wounded character being finished off. Headshots are irrelevant to it.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#60: Oct 28th 2014 at 3:41:11 PM

[up][up]I think it's a splittable subtrope. Instant Death Bullet is used to make gunshot wounds less messy — you shoot someone, they fall over dead, no need to go through the whole unpleasant process of screaming in pain and thrashing about while you gradually bleed to death. Instant Death Headshot is used when that's averted, and you'd normally show the whole drawn-out process of dying from a gunshot wound — but the plot calls for someone to be killed instantly by a single bullet, with absolutely no chance of saving them. So you have them shot in the head instead.

The two are certainly similar, which is why I'd say Instant Death Headshot is a subtrope of Instant Death Bullet, but they're used in different situations for different reasons, which makes them two different tropes in my mind.

[up]The two aren't mutually exclusive; that scene is also an example of Shoot the Shaggy Dog and Hope Spot, for example, but that doesn't mean it isn't also Instant Death Headshot and Additional Injury Finishes Off Recovering Wounded.

edited 28th Oct '14 3:42:53 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#61: Oct 28th 2014 at 3:51:06 PM

Not seeing a difference there, either. Especially since Real Life gunshots take their time too, and I am not convinced of your interpretation of the reasons for trope usage (chest shots are treated pretty similarly in fiction, with quick death in most cases unless it's off-centre).

So yeah, after this third iteration, I am definitively convinced that these things are the same trope with no substantial difference.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MrL1193 Since: Apr, 2013
#62: Oct 28th 2014 at 4:22:16 PM

Yes, it's true that we have 'Tis Only a Bullet in the Brain. However, what we do not have is Tis Only A Bullet In The Chest (or anywhere else in the body). Why is that? Thinking realistically, you would expect that a bullet to the chest would also be deadly, wouldn't you? You might expect that surviving a bullet to the chest would be equally impressive, but that's not how it works in fiction. If a character survives a bullet to the chest, he's lucky, but nothing more. (No doubt the bullet simply missed the most important organs by millimeters.) However, if a character survives a bullet to the head, he's exceptionally Bad Ass, because, supposedly, no one should be able to survive a bullet to the head. I find that distinction telling; to me, it's a clear indication that, in fiction, head shots are special, and I consider that distinction tropeworthy.

gallium Since: Oct, 2012
#63: Oct 28th 2014 at 4:25:08 PM

I concur with Septimus Heap—same trope.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#64: Oct 29th 2014 at 1:44:41 AM

^^Plot Armor exist too, sire. And the distinction you are talking about already has its own trope - 'Tis Only a Bullet in the Brain.

Anyhow, as-is I am seeing that 2 people (Mr L and Native Jovian) are supporting this proposition and 4 are opposed (shimaspawn, Septimus Heap, gallium and Memers), so I'll say to go ahead with a split. We can add in a headshot trope later if support shifts in its favour.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#65: Oct 29th 2014 at 6:06:37 AM

Go ahead with what split? Me and Mr L are the ones saying that Instant Death Bullet should be split into Instant Death Bullet and Instant Death Headshot. But if you want to go ahead with that despite there being more opposition than support, then I'm not going to complain. tongue

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#66: Oct 29th 2014 at 6:11:12 AM

The split proposal in question is @16, "headshot as indicator of good marksmanship" and "videogame trope, where shooting someone in the head causes more damage than any other place.".

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#67: Oct 29th 2014 at 6:34:01 AM

[up][up]

Ok so to get this active again I will make a proposition, split this.

Headshot Critical: The current Boom, Headshot! videogame trope, where shooting someone in the head causes more damage than any other place. Subtrope of Attack Its Weak Point and possibly Instant Death Bullet Aim Assist and Arbitrary Gun Power. It will require a new page image though.

Rifle Head Shot: Works use this as proof that the shooter is a good shot. Does not have to be a full sniper rifle, just at range and more than likely uses a scope. Differs from real life though as someone who has actually been trained should be aiming for the chest, a headshot is a missed Bullseye but still hit its target. Note: it can be used in videogame cutscenes for the same effect.

These plus other headshot tropes such as Double Tap, Removing the Head or Destroying the Brain, Chunky Salsa Rule, 'Tis Only a Bullet in the Brain and Pretty Little Headshots etc already exist and should be on the Headshot Index.

As for what we do with the name Boom, Headshot! I think it should be linked to the index and the image is good for the index.

edited 29th Oct '14 6:47:48 AM by memers

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#68: Nov 29th 2014 at 2:31:15 AM

Clock is set.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Servbot Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#69: Nov 29th 2014 at 6:02:14 AM

However, what we do not have is Tis Only A Bullet In The Chest (or anywhere else in the body). Why is that?

We do, actually. That would be Normally, I Would Be Dead Now, which was created a lot earlier than 'Tis Only a Bullet in the Brain.

MrL1193 Since: Apr, 2013
#70: Nov 29th 2014 at 5:33:05 PM

[up] That trope doesn't give special treatment to any one part of the body. The description specifically gives both head and chest wounds as possible examples, the quote mentions decapitation, and the image just shows lots and lots of knives sticking out of the character in various places. It could be considered a supertrope of 'Tis Only a Bullet in the Brain, but again, the fact that 'Tis Only a Bullet in the Brain gets its own subtrope while the other injuries don't suggests to me that there is a trend in media of giving head wounds special treatment.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#71: Dec 30th 2014 at 2:35:06 AM

Re-clocking.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Leaper Since: May, 2009
#72: Jan 2nd 2015 at 1:03:27 PM

I'd hate for all the discussion so far to go to waste, especially for a trope that seems clearly broken.

What is the barrier here? Does the work seem too daunting? Is there something we can crowner or otherwise take a step forward on?

Possible step to take (maybe the part that is daunting): most of the major misuse seems to be "a character gets shot in the head ". Is there anywhere to put those, or are those just purgable?

edited 2nd Jan '15 1:05:20 PM by Leaper

Karxrida The Unknown from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
The Unknown
#73: Jan 4th 2015 at 1:29:43 AM

I agree that Instant Death Headshot should be made a sub-trope of Instant Death Bullet; it is distinct enough since getting shot in the head is pretty much instat death in fiction (bar some examples of the video game version like in TF 2), and 'Tis Only a Bullet in the Brain is a blatant aversion of this trend.

edited 4th Jan '15 1:30:06 AM by Karxrida

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#74: Feb 4th 2015 at 2:28:08 AM

Extending clock for the last time.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Leaper Since: May, 2009
#75: Feb 5th 2015 at 2:33:17 AM

So is the proposal to do the @16 split and delete all the "this character is killed by a headshot" examples and potholes? I assume part of the reason for the slowness is that there are SO MANY of those...

What about the index suggestion? What needs to be done with that? I can make a crowner once I'm certain of the proposal.

edited 5th Feb '15 2:39:03 AM by Leaper

PageAction: BoomHeadshot
6th Feb '15 12:15:07 PM

Crown Description:

What would be the best way to fix the page?

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