Misused: Knight Of Cerebus

I believe there is an issue with the examples in this page. I think a lot of them don't fit at all. Many of them can be summed up as "this series is dark from the beginning to the end, but X is slightly more evil than the other villains, so X is the Knight of Cerebus". No, my friend, X is not. The knight of cerebus is someone who permanently changes the tone of the series, if the series was already dark before that character came, that doesn't count. Some villains are also being mentioned just because they are more powerful or more plot relevant than others. But being the Big Bad does not automatically make someone the Knight of Cerebus. People are using the page just to list what villain they think is the most evil.

Maybe a clean up would be a good idea?

Yes, but I don't know why you would use the "Complaining" thread header for a cleanup topic.

This is the first time I made a thread like that, I don't know what I should use.

Am I posting this in the wrong place too?

You posted in the right place. I changed the title to Misused to be more accurate.

Well, to get started on this I think we should use the Meta from Red Vs Blue as a base example. The first five seasons of the series were mostly comedy with a touch of series moments every now and then. But when the Meta arrived, the series came to the front of the show, which fortunately, never lost its comedy. While the series would dip back into comedy at times, there would always be a serious overtone lurking, and the show would eventually become serious again. The Meta's arrival made it clear that things weren't going to be the same. That was when Red Vs Blue really picked up.

edited 21st Sep '14 4:47:25 AM by SatoshiBakura

Though there's the (actually more common) variation of a villain that changes the tone of the series but only when his presence is felt. Such as Ronan the Accuser in Guardians of the Galaxy. The movie's for the most part wacky, fun and in very light-tone except whenever Ronan, the genocidal madman fundamentalist, is on-screen or otherwise making his presence felt, things become a lot darker and more serious, but whenever he leaves the screen or dies (as in the end of the movie), the plot kicks back to silliness.

I agree that there's a difference between "This character heralds a permanent Genre Shift to something darker" and "This character is dark, and the story is dark with him around, but only then." I'm just not sure it would be easy to split the page like that.

Definitely agree "Dark series gets even darker character" doesn't count, though. I mean, I suppose it could conceivably work if it's a Black Comedy series and all the humor shuts off when the Knight shows up, but I'm not sure on that one.

Knight of Cerebus isn't about "light show gets darker due to new villain". It's about "show gets more serious due to a new villain's arrival". Remember that Cerebus Syndrome is about a comedy becoming more serious.

How many appearances could an antagonist have in order to qualify the Knight of Cerebus?

edited 21st Sep '14 5:33:54 PM by Shadao

It's not really a matter of the number of appearances. They just need to have that seriousness-heralding effect on the story.

Hellsing is an already dark anime, right? I pretty much took that example out if it counts as a mistake on the page.

I don't think the villain has to be in a comedy series to necessarily count though. Take for example the idea of a Hero Killer in a Murder Mystery series. The fact that the series already deals with the theme of murder keeps it from being a totally lighthearted series. But the Hero Killer still shifts the tone from

"I wonder who killed Old Man Shepard?"

to

"Oh God, my favourite character is going to DIE!!!

I wanted to bring this up: I believe we should cut out all standalone works, particularly films. Cerebus Syndrome, and Knight of Cerebus by extension, are by definition tropes that can only apply to ongoing works like comic books, TV series, etc.

Most examples of KOC in the films category are actually more like Vile Villain, Saccharine Show anyway. Some of them even mention things becoming darker/more serious during the film's climax which is exactly when you would expect things to get more serious, Cerebus or no.

edited 5th Nov '14 2:48:59 AM by wrm5

I don't think only on-going works qualify. Knight of Cerebus is a villain who makes the story all the more grim or serious when he enters the scene. None of that requires it to be a ongoing work

"In order to add more drama to a series..."

"Series" and "work" are often used interchangeably in trope descriptions.

edited 8th Nov '14 4:16:07 PM by Discar

But can a standalone work even undergo Cerebus Syndrome in the first place?

Guardians of the Galaxy is a good example. It's a pure comedy, but the funny shuts off like a light whenever Ronan the Accuser is on the screen (with one notable exception near the end, where's he's butt of a joke).

I've always felt it would make more sense to have another trope for villains like that - like Vile Villain, Saccharine Show, except not limited to "saccharine" works.

Bump. I think there's a general agreement that we're missing a supertrope for villains that are significantly darker than the work around them, but I still don't feel that expanding Knight of Cerebus to cover it is the best solution.

Clock is set.

Isn't that Vile Villain, Saccharine Show?

Clock expired with little progress since the clocking; closing.