Hatedom is an Audience Reaction and Character Derailment requires a judgment call from the audiences. These are considered subjective by our purposes; we don't define that by some numerical standard of "so many people agree with that view". They are further classed as Flame Bait because they are troublesome in the wicks.
Narm's status is an artifact of the Narm/ namespace; it's not supposed to be classed as such and was added by someone who was misled by the namespace.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Narm's not supposed to be Flame Bait? Then we need to fix that, because I've been seeing people running around deleting it wholesale.
There was a past discussion to the effect of pulling Narm out of Darth Wiki and into YMMV - here
(see also kyfhv's post):
You Give Me Fever
You say they are audience reactions, but I to protest on hatedom. First off, the Flame Bait page calls all of its listed blue links Tropes, a line I think needs to be changed because most of them are not tropes. But even so hatedom is just an audience reaction. You may not agree with a hatedom, but you can't deny it exists. It is a thing as real as fandom, as real as gravity, and honestly could fit just as well on the trivia tab if the wiki did not have slant against negativity.
Maybe if I knew about these problematic wicks I could see why it was on the page but I haven't seen any. I've been through cross wicked pages, page histories, looked through Ask The Tropers and see nothing that makes it any worse than anything else on Your Mileage May Vary.
If I felt like it, I could put hatedom on a hypothetical IWA Mid-South page with a Your Mileage May Vary tab.
. The suggestion that simply pointing out their existence is flame bait makes it sound like we have a needlessly volatile user base. People have hated on things and will always hate on things.
I don't know who, moderation or some other consensus, came to the conclusion Character Derailment was not a trope but whoever did, did not bother to change the page to reflect this stance. It even links to Tropes Are Not Bad when explaining why character derailment can be used to tell good stories, a line that should not be on an audience reaction page. The page also lists lots of related pages not considered flame bait. Really, reading the page, nothing about about character derailment seems worthy of sparking a flame war whatsoever. I mean to say we might as well be consistent. Character Rerailment at the very least should also be on the flame bait page (since you can't talk about the latter without the former) or both should be allowed on Your Mileage May Vary. The pages themselves should agree on whether or not these are all tropes or not too.
Narm I'd have put in the trope repair shop a long time ago if it not for the fact it is not a trope. But it being in this kind of limbo confuses me. Darth Wiki's supposed to be a parody of TV Tropes, not a haven for audience reaction pages that are problematic and what problems did Narm cause? Other than failing the "guess what it means test" horribly, a problem that will not be fixed by moving it around, it has the same exact tone as So Bad, It's Good, which sits comfortably away from the flame bait page and the Darth Wiki.
edited 12th Jul '14 11:37:22 AM by IndirectActiveTransport
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
I think you are arguing from the view of a strict YMMV-trope dichotomy.
First, for the purpose of technical terms (such as when naming the section of related pages), we don't care about the difference between audience reaction and trope. It does not matter there.
Second, Character Derailment is something that happens in media. It's flagged because it attracts a lot of controversy. The "why are Audience Reactions YMMV when their existence can be documented objectively?" debate was had already - I am guessing the reason why we disregard that is because we don't put effort into documenting and measuring stuff of peripheral importance to storytelling.
Also, Hatedom is an Audience Reaction alright. It's a reaction of the audience, not something that happens inside a work.
Narm was moved to Darth before the YMMV-trope distinctions really took off.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
You Give Me Fever
Well, partly but also I think the fact we supposedly cannot mention a Your Mileage May Vary item without causing a flame war is childish. I was just searching for a polite way to type it, alas, I am no poet. But if we are really that childish here, then I can understand why the mods would rather not deal with it, sort of.
But I think we have agreed narm should not be on the flame bait page and that the page descriptions of both Character Derailment and the flame bait page itself need work, that much at least?
edited 12th Jul '14 7:28:17 PM by IndirectActiveTransport
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
Dread Sorcerer of Auchtermuchty
Narm was put on ages ago when people were using it for Complaining and should have a clarification on the Flame Bait page - only when used to complain about stuff, which is misuse anyway. Hatedom has always been Flame Bait, along with Fan Dumb and Hate Dumb, although individual pages lose the Flame Bait banner sometimes.
Keeper of The Celestial Flame
Well, if it's misuse, then it should be deleted for that reason. We don't need that extra qualifier on the Flame Bait page, just maybe a note "Hey, this attracts a lot of complaining, be especially careful."
I'm gonna holler for that to be fixed.
edited 13th Jul '14 9:29:05 AM by Discar
About the so called Flame Bait banner, I have to ask why three in particular are on it.
Hatedom is not even subjective, nor a trope for that matter...well it is a trope only in the sense Not the Fall That Kills You… is a trope. It is not inherently judgmental, or at least it should not be. It is just something that happens. When a person likes something enough to invest in it, they become a fan. Where multiple people become fans, you find a fandom. Well sometimes people don't like things, and sometimes you'll find multitudes who are intent on disliking something. Haters, or hatedom as we call it. If you have a hatedom, congratulations, it comes with fame. How mentioning one Flame Bait?
Character Derailment strikes me as being along the same line as Continuity Drift, Out-of-Character Moment, Character Check, Characterization Marches On. Not even arguing it should be on the main tab like those are but Badass Decay exists just fine on subjective tab. What's so bad about saying "people/I think this guy changed without an adequate explanation or in a believable way?" We already have tropes that often lead to changing characters without much in story explanation or ways that stretch the Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
Narm...is a poorly chosen name as is (It comes from some obscure scene from an obscure television program) but the page as described is just when people laugh at something that attempts to be dramatic. There is a trope for that too, a very very old trope called Bathos. Narm would be the intended audience reaction to a writer invoking bathos.
Everything else on the page I will leave alone, for now. I can at least see why you may not want those being posted anywhere. The three I listed simply don't make much sense to me given what already is not considered "flame bait".
edited 12th Jul '14 8:19:35 AM by IndirectActiveTransport
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes