Not Tropeworthy: Font Anachronism

Frankly, this isn't a trope, because its far too esoteric knowledge to be something that the work author can use to make some sort of point/statement to the audience.

I'd put it as a Useful note or something similar, but it's definitely not a Trope. If 99.999% of your audience doesn't get the reference, or doesn't even KNOW that there was something being referenced, then it doesn't qualify as a Trope. Frankly, it's more of an in-joke at best, and more likely a Translation Convention in most cases; for instance, most people wouldn't be able to read many of the scripts in use long ago, even if the language was understood. E.g. we've lost the meaning what the Thorn character is, so using a modern font which doesn't have it to convey important information isn't a unique trope.

It's somewhere between a To Rare To Trope and a People Sit on Chairs.

If this qualifies as a distinct Trope, then we open ourselves to any anachronistic item being considered a specific trope, rather than just falling under one of the more general tropes about how it was being used. Halberds in the 12th century? Trope! That dog breed didn't exist at that time/place? Trope!

Thoughts?

Your argument is well-thought-out and well-stated. Good OP.

I'm inclined to agree. Most people watching a show or a movie have no idea when a font was "invented". And the fact that Arial was only invented in <whenever> doesn't mean that some sign painter a hundred years earlier hadn't used a lettering design that was functionally the same. No trope here, just "Neener-neener I know more about type faces and fonts that the [author/designer/director/insert whatever position] did" preening.

edited 3rd Jul '14 6:20:44 PM by Madrugada

I think it's trivia, of the Artistic Licence type, but no reason to cut it.

This is a form of Anachronism Stew for fonts. Also, the description is a bit dismissive in my mind.

So this is a font-specific form of Anachronism Stew?

I am not sure we really need this trope, since invention dates of fonts isn't really notable if it's just assigning names to the typeface designs. As Maddy had already mentioned, just because the Arial font is "invented" at a certain date, it doesn't mean that the particular design doesn't exist before that.

Honestly, for as small a detail as it is, the page is really well written, informative and not at all whiny and complainy. Yes, it's nerdy as hell, but it's an informative and entertaining read. I'm not sure we should axe pages just because someone might learn something from them or because they need a higher knowledge bar to add examples.

That said, I do think it's more trivia than trope.

edited 4th Jul '14 9:33:50 AM by shimaspawn

It currently is the Font-specific subtrope of Anachronism Stew.

I don't think we should ax it completely, but it definitely should be de-Troped, and possibly put into something like a Useful Note, and have all the examples moved back on to their referring works, substituting Artistic License or similar as the actual Trope.

I don't think it needs it's examples moved. I think it just needs to be moved to Trivia at most. It's well written, not complainy, and an informative read. That's more than we get from most articles on the wiki.

I also think that it's better as Trivia. As a Useful Note, I think it would be redundant given Fonts.

To changing this to a trivia page.

I wrote this particular page. I got a ton of help from some typographers and graphic designers at Typophile.com and a couple other tropers because it was difficult to remember from movies what I had seen was incorrect. It took a lot of research on my part to pull those examples together. I don't want to see all that time just axed.

It's not hurting anyone to exist. If it is trivia, please change it to that type of page. But I would hate to see it removed.

I get that my having studied design makes me more sensitive to incorrect usage of fonts, but I see it as no different than hacking being shown as fast typing and shiny interfaces, or random dinosaurs being used whenever for whatever. It's anachronism. And also a type of Artistic License.

By the way, when I made this up, we discussed the fact that directors sometimes invoke this on purpose to appeal to a modern audience while also evoking an era. That sounds trope worthy to me personally... (but perhaps that's neither here nor there.)

edited 5th Jul '14 10:26:50 PM by Lakija

I am fairly inclined to file that under Trivia.

yeah, we can keep this as trivia.

Trvia seems to be the right move.

But, just to be clear here, it's still not a Trope. Even if there do exist directors who are trying to make a statement with it, because the audience simply doesn't understand that there's one to be made. That is, not only don't they understand the message, they don't even perceive there's a message being sent.

Food for thought on what to do next:

(1) We seem to think that we should keep the page, but change it from a Trope to a Trivia page. Is that actually possible? I know there are Useful Note pages, but are there stand-alone Trivia pages?

(2) I'd suggest that we DO remove all the examples from the page, because, either as a Trivia or Useful Note page, they're not supposed to have examples on the actual page. However...

(3) For each of the examples, we should go over to the relevant media page, and add in a note which points out the Font Anachronism. My preference would be to add this as a Genius Bonus trope on the media's main page, and NOT under the "Trivia" tab.

We don't "move" trope pages to trivia per se (as there is no Trivia/ namespace) we just add them to the Trivia index, which automagically attaches a banner to the page ( e.g. Actor Allusion). Also, we don't need to remove Font Anachronism's examples. We just have to move its wicks on work pages to that work's trivia subpage.

edited 6th Jul '14 7:13:01 PM by MacronNotes

I question the positive (or at least non-negative) assessments of the page. It really feels like this:

It doesn't come off as boasting to me. Just that odd sort of trivia about works that you get sometimes when a lot of nerds hang around. It could be because I do graphics work, but typography and how works use it is interesting to me.

I don't know why it comes off that way. When I read the "Somewhere an X is Crying" pages, I don't feel offended that I'm not a paleontologist or ornithologist or entomologist. But I'm happy I learned something new and then it becomes clear to me later.

I tried to be honest and neutral when I wrote the page (but still have a bit of fun). To me personally, even if others don't know about typography, mistakes still happen in movies with type. I am just confused as to why one particular type of anachronism is less worthy than another because it's less known.

At this point, I don't care if it's cut or not, or sent to the trivia index. Whatever is deemed best is what will happen ultimately. I don't mean to sound condescending or whiny about this matter. Carry on.

I don't think it's worse than any page about production mistakes. If anything it's better than the average, since those are often written rather negatively with complaining. This is pretty factual.

Actually, I'm going to drop my objection. I was sort of feeling that this was even less justifiable than those pages (which I also consider very preeny) because fonts are such a minor thing, but I think that doesn't really fit with There Is No Such Thing As Notability.

Obligatory reminder that There Is No Such Thing as Notability is about work pages and work examples, not about tropes.

Otherwise, the example section strikes me as very matter-of-fact and without boasting or complaining.

Well, at least it's not Too Rare to Trope. Considering how specific it is, I think 20-something examples isn't that bad.

This was the first time that I looked up dates for my enjoyment.

After reading it again its a sweet page. I should gather the rest of the examples out there.

Nerdy. Niche. Subtle. Still awesome.

Not tropeworthy. Not really interesting, frankly, outside of the fairly narrow circle of typeface enthusiasts. Make Useful Notes or make Trivia.

Excuse me. Just because you find something uninteresting does not mean it is not trope worthy. It's not a coincidence that this happens all the time.

I should say I've been civil up till this point. But this just is beginning to piss me off a little. This page has plenty of examples. I did my research. I wrote a succinct neutral description and explained my case. I enlisted help and went through the YKTTW process. I watched films to be sure. I looked at ALL the other Artistic License and Somewhere a X is Crying pages. And I deemed that this would fit in fine, even if it is niche.

There's plenty of pages that describe tropes I would never have dreamed of. And yet here they are. And I would never question their existence simply because I found them uninteresting. Someone somewhere finds it interesting. And someone learns something new from it. I thought that is what this site was for. That's what I use it for. To learn new things in an interesting way.

At any rate, whatever happens to this page happens. I've already saved a copy just in case.