YKTTW crowners

...are kinda not that useful in YKTTW (especially rename ones). since it tends to be quite biased most of the time.

long story short, I propose we make standards regarding a name's Clear Concise Wittyness that overrides any questionable majority decision.

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Take this discussion here.

Crowners in YKTTW usually tend to become "two wolves and a sheep voting what to eat for lunch". with bad names getting voted high for "clarity" despite have nearly nothing to do with the trope. The YKTTW in question here nearly got renamed into Pathfinding Error (guess the trope definition, you'll see why it doesn't work at all), which doesn't even have anything to do with it as a cross=media trope. but thanks to the OP pushing his favored name, we got something more descriptive.

On the other hand, the opposite can also happen. a good name (or just descriptive, if bland) can get thrown out because the OP is obsessed with his own Trope Namer despite obvious, objective problems about the name. such a situation happened here.

A plain weird case can also happen regarding Creator Provincialism. The OP can insist that a term is clear despite it being clear only to people in the anglosphere, like say, obscure english words.

such a thing happened here and here. On the former, there was a consensus on Mr Booze And Friends that suddenly lost to John Barleycorn and Friends, with quite a few people giving solid reasons not to use it getting ignored thanks to the consensus. on the latter, while I agree Warhawk is Clear Concise Witty, to those who don't know that it refers to a warmonger^note which got the majority voting against it, despite it being a synonym to warhawk. it will seem to them as either the videogame, a hawk used in war, a specific Red Baron title, or a hawk-themed warrior.

edited 3rd Mar '14 2:56:49 PM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

Well, in the case of the second trope, War Hawk is the actual dictionary name for what the trope is about. You can't really get much clearer. Anything else would be a confusing neologism. War Hawk has been the term for centuries.

While it is biased towards people who speak English, this is an English speaking wiki and expanding people's vocabularies isn't a bad thing.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

wasn't saying that's incorrect. I was saying the crowner was heavily biased against the alternative, which could have been a redirect (especially if there might be a case of said "neologism" being the one actually used to refer to the person in the work).

and in fact, Warhawk did get a few questionable examples suggested in the YKTTW stage because of the "hawk" in the title.

edited 3rd Mar '14 6:18:07 PM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

Here's the thing: is the majority always right? No. The majority can be wrong. However, the wiki is a collaborative effect, so when it doubt trust in the majority.

I think the problem is just a weird place the wiki culture has fallen into. Word Salad Title once had a long ugly string of words for a name, Hyper Octo Disco Mega Punk Something Or Other. Back in The Day, this was an acceptable title...or it wasn't acceptable and just survived under the radar for a while. We've abandoned that approach / enforced the rules against making the names as obscure as possible, the whole Clear, Concise, Witty approach.

Now, last I've heard over the months, we've got people taking the "clear" part too far, producing too many dry titles. I think that's the heart of the problem: the wiki culture has cracked down on Obscure But Funny / Trope Namer / etc but has swung to the opposite extreme of Describe Every Aspect Of A Trope In The Name To Be Absolutely Clear.

There's a happy medium to be had here. Pathfinding Error didn't illustrate the Wallbonking trope as well as its supporters thought it did, and adding more words to it, AI Atempts To Pathfind Through A Wall Error, doesn't make it a better name. It's clear, concise, and witty, even if there was a majority disagreement on the crowner.

All I can think of for situations like this is to Holler if you think the majority is taking the wrong approach. There's really only two ways of making a decision around here: either the general troper community democratically votes on it or we let the staff make the calls. Let's put the best effort into working it out with a crowner before summoning the moderators for help. There's no simple way to make sure that the voting majority is voting "correctly" and you can't just disregard their decision on your own.

"But don't give up hope. Everyone is cured sooner or later. In the end we shall shoot you." - O'Brien, 1984

I disagree. For "Wallbonking" I suggested Barrier Blind, which I believe fits better. I wouldn't even know what "Wallbonking" is if not for a clear description.

The problem isn't "majority shouting down a minority", the problem is "a few people shouting down an even smaller group of people".

Perhaps what's needed is a nice button to show up on a YKTTW when a crowner gets linked so that people who wouldn't look at the dradt can see there's a vote going on.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Which is definitely another thing to consider. There are far few tropers who edit than there are readers. There are fewer tropes who use TRS and YKTTW than there are who just edit pages they like. So it is a small population of people who participate in this process on any given subject at hand rather than a "majority" of people on the site.

Without derailing too much, I never saw that on the crowner and that could have also worked out.

edited 3rd Mar '14 7:32:50 PM by Rotpar

"But don't give up hope. Everyone is cured sooner or later. In the end we shall shoot you." - O'Brien, 1984

I hate to be a derailer, but I see a hypocrisy here, and unfortunately I'm on the losing end. The sponsor for Wallbonking got his way despite many complaints to the contrary (admittedly, Pathfinding Error, while correct in a technical sense, isn't very fun). Yet when I defend my choice, I'm apparently being selfish for doing so.

Who is right? Both Sides Have a Point?

Pathfinding Error is incorrect on a technical sense, because that term describes the supertrope of "AI having trouble going from A to B", not only cases of running into obstacles repeatedly.

At this point, there's about twenty tropers that have voted on your YKTTW. Something to remember about wikis: it's never about you.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

And the winner is actually Magic Pressure Buildup. Which is very close to what I wanted all along.

I'll concede the point and let Magic Pressure Buildup win, if I weren't still suspended. I just really don't like Pent Up Power Malfunction. It says the same thing, but it longer than it needs to be and the rhythm doesn't sound right.

Where I see the problem is that Shanghai Slave presents two tropers, both have done the same behavior, but she praises one and condemns the other despite both doing the exact same thing.

edited 3rd Mar '14 8:56:04 PM by DennisDunjinman

I wouldn't call it hypocrisy, just perhaps a bit of things falling under the radar. Shanghai Slave linked to the YKTTW rescue thread where I had brought up the Wallbonking matter, just after it was launched. I wasn't fighting for the "Wallbonking" title, I was addressing the fact that it was launched against consensus. I don't think the staff took any action against the sponsor but it shouldn't have been suddenly launched to "win" an argument.

Just try not to take things as a "you versus the rest of the wiki" thing. Because, as the rules stand, we go with the majority if the staff doesn't chime in. Maybe the mods let Septimus handle that thread and the first one reading this topic will decide "Wallbonking" was a bad call, rename that trope, and suspend the sponsor for kicking it out the door. In the meantime, the name appears to have been acceptable, and we're now hashing out what to do in situations should the crowner results be wrong.

The important thing is that we need to work together and if problems arise, be it one troper demanding his way or a group missing the point, we turn to the staff for help.

edited 3rd Mar '14 9:10:22 PM by Rotpar

"But don't give up hope. Everyone is cured sooner or later. In the end we shall shoot you." - O'Brien, 1984

I'm sorry. But it's very difficult for me to confide in the wiki when I see other users talking down to me and I don't know how to calmly defend myself or my views without becoming an Extreme Doormat who has tohumiliate herself admitting she was wrong or Made Out to Be a Jerkass. Being talked down to tests my patience. I can be patient, but it wears thin.

I would agree that whoever sponsored Wallbonking and launched it had done so prematurely. But I didn't say anything because I thought the rest of us just lost and therefore had to live with it. Apparently, we can say something.

Good job, Shanghai Slave.

Septimus is a 'wizard apprentice', with access to a few mod tools, and a very active participant on TV Tropes.

Dennis, calm down. One of the hardest things is not to get your way when you really want it. It's frustrating as blazes, and a royal pain, but that's also life.

The admin and mods here absolutely do not permit bullying. If someone was pushing you to do something you didn't want to do, all you had to do was report them so the mods could tap them on the shoulder for a talk. Conversely, if someone, through frustration or any other reason, acts in a way that appears to be domineering or pushing their opinion at the expense of others, then they'll get tapped for a talk.

As for the trope naming process, I think a way to send out a general-troper call, specifically for voting on the trope name, might be an idea. Even just posting on Ask The Tropers might draw in some more votes, and some of those people might be intrigued enough to begin participating in YKTTW. It may be a little at a time, but a whole bunch of littles make a lot. (SFW link)

Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry Pratchett

@Dennis

to answer your concern, that's only because your situations are essentially different (pushing bad name vs pushing decent name).

Baffleblend pushed his name which described the trope from the get go: people bonking on walls for no obvious reason (i.e. the lack of detail helps the name) I was not familiar with bonking itself but got it right away because it seems like an onomatopoeia.

The name you wanted to push plain lacks the most important aspect of your trope: the fact that it has a side effect. because as I've said there, Magic Buildup is just magic accumulating.

Also, you're technically both selfish, Baffleblend just happened to have a good point on his situation. two wrongs don't make a right.

EDIT: forgot the obligatory </opinion> </not-a-mod-hat> tags

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Back on topic

You nailed the hammer on the head, Rotpar. that IS the problem, too many people went to the opposite extreme now.

I like the idea of hollering for a Mod to step in. but I think that kinda bothers them instead for something rather small (? not sure if trope names are that small, but that's what I think).

There's the other problem you pointed out though: Wiki sectionomy(?), where only a specific population of tropers inhabit YKTTW, TRS, etc. and hence we get a very bias sample of opinions for anything under those specific sections. but that's not something that can be fixed, I think.

edited 3rd Mar '14 9:56:27 PM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

I still see it as hypocrisy. The only difference is that you've chosen to favor one example over the other out of personal preference. And you are still only one voice.

A couple of issues, I see.

First, there is no 100% reliable decision making system that will always make the best decision. A majority system is the most reliable system of all, since it has the least chances of error. Or in other words, for 7 people to support a bad name, 7 people would have to make a mistake, which is less likely than just one person to make a mistake.

Now, names being overly boring and clunky are certainly an issue. There was a thread one year and a half ago about that.

As for YKTTW, I think that one part of the issue is the relative segregation from other places on the wiki. All staff reports really happen through the forums or Ask The Tropers, and if something doesn't get talked about there it falls under the radar.

Finally, I'll note that I do not have any special functions here. I am the biggest user of the YKTTW Crash Rescue thread, but I was giving an opinion there like anyone else.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Having an official means to link a crowner to a YKTTW has been on the to-do list for a while. Getting TRS folk involved in YKTTW, which is probably the best way to solve this problem, has also been something that's been talked about for a while without really getting anywhere.

It was Super Punk Octo Pudding Gas Mark Seven, and it was hardly obscure as tropes go, though Word Salad Title was eventually created as a redirect. At least before Fast Eddie took over, I don't think we had any sort of policy on names, and Trope Namers and neologisms even in the face of pre-existing terms (even when it's pointless - Distressed Damsel, anyone?) were the norm. Have a look at some of these (not to mention the YKTTW I linked to in the recently-closed Did Mom Just Have Tea with Cthulhu? TRS thread). You realize this comes off as "your situations are different because I like one name better than the other", right?

do i need to repeat that the name he wanted to push was plain undescriptive while the one with baffleblend was decently descriptive?

EDIT: i mean that's what I said immediately after that sentence.

edited 4th Mar '14 12:26:01 AM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

Only in your mind, Shanghai Slave. I could also elaborate the reasons why I don't like the term.

"Wall" is a noun I recognize, but "bonk" is not a verb I recognize. It could mean that a person is having sex with the wall. It could mean "hitting the wall" in the meaning of someone running out of steam. It could mean a person taking a blunt instrument to destroy a wall.

Barrier Blind, my suggestion, is clearer. It describes that someone can't detect or outright ignores an obstacle that's right in front of them, and continues to plow through it.

Of course, I could be wrong. I usually am.

EDIT: I'm looking back on the Wallbonking YKTTW discussion. I don't know how to quote users, but may I quote you and Baffle Blend on this?

added: 2014-02-14 18:32:40 by Baffle Blend [edit this reply] You know what? Fuck this. I'm taking back MY trope. If you don't think the name's clear, then you've wallbonked yourself a little too much.

added: 2014-02-14 18:34:53 by Shanghai Slave [edit this reply] ^ ha, thumbs up to that. THAT's the attitude you need to have.

Yet you condemn me for doing the same thing Baffle Blend did, except I didn't drop any F-bombs or insult other users for their opinions. I still have to insist that you may not be as righteous about your actions as you think.

edited 4th Mar '14 1:28:50 AM by DennisDunjinman

you realize it can mean someone stumbling over a short fence too right? In addition to that, barriers are sort of a Loaded Trope Word in fiction due to energy barriers and things like that. have you said Wall Blind I might even agree with you, but even that sounds like a different trope. had we continued the discussion it would have derailed into something else.

the only thing stopping that one was people not liking "bonking". your situation was you insisting "buildup describes more than just buildup", which is not an issue of preference, but clarity, so have we rushed that, we get an instant TRS that basically just continues to discuss an issue that could have been ironed out back in YKTTW stage.

plus, I'm not acting as if i'm some saint here.

I supported him:

• for his guts to speak up against the winning name (which we can all agree, is not descriptive to the trope at all) despite having lost interest in the trope itself earlier. if it were someone else they would have just given up and make the trope go to waste.
• while he was being rude, that was because he was mad at the bad name winning. there was no further attempt at discussing the name because it was rushed, but otherwise, the winning name actually at least describes the trope. I knew the process was under the table but his point is valid, so I supported him.
• He brought forth neologisms like The Scrappy and Flanderization as his precedent. with his having the advantage of being an existent word that means roughly the same as the trope. another good point.

I "condemned" you for the following

• your stubborn insistence that buildup alone describes the fact that it has a correlated side effect.
  • It doesn't, so I really couldn't have rooted for you.
• you were using of Strawmen to prove your point. bad way to support a position, period.
• you were being rude, and didn't even consider alternatives not involving magic or buildup. Baffle at least tried, but lost patience and got clingy to his favored name (which again, was not bad to begin with).

thing is, righteous or not, Jerkass Has a Point. something you back there, unfortunately didn't have.

</treading on thin ice>

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

Barrier Blind makes it sound like it's about magical barriers that you can't see through. English is so multipurpose that there is no title that people can't mistake for something else.

That or about people who can't see the obstacles in their path, physical or metaphorical.

I wouldn't ever consider it to be a trope about people bonking into walls repetitively.

edited 4th Mar '14 2:52:44 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

This thread is getting off-topic. The topic is how to make crowners in YKTTW more legitimate, not "what so-and-so did in YKTTW".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

For starters, the stopgap measure until we get a prominent crowner flag added to YKTTW has been to add the text "(TITLES CROWNER)" or whatever to the draft title.

I think the main problem with YKTTW crowners is that the voting is slow and they tend to fall behind the discussions in a YKTTW. By the time a proposition is leading in the crowner someone might have made a good point about how a name or a term in the name is unclear or misleading, and would make the trope worse. But by that point you're not going to be able to just ask everybody to come back to change their vote if you think of a better name.

And I disagree. It is possible for 7 people to all be wrong, if they're just voting on a crowner for the sake of getting it through YKTTW, instead of voting thoughtfully and thinking of the clarity of the name. Or they're just voting on a name, because it's a funny meme or something, when it doesn't really say anything about the trope.

I think there are some people who even vote up bad names ironically or out of spite with someone they disagree with in the discussion.

Maybe YKTTW crowners should have "elimination rounds" or something. By that I mean if better names come up only put the leading names in the previous crowner in a new one with a newer name if it comes up. Another reason to do that is because YKTTW crowners result in a tie sometimes. Or the votes are just so close that they could use their own crowner.

Also on The Magical Buildup thing pretty much everyone (minus troacctid I guess) thought Dennis's name was unclear in that YKTTW not just Shanghai. That's the reason there was a crowner in the first place. He just didn't want to listen to any of it.

edited 4th Mar '14 10:49:01 AM by xanderiskander

that doesn't address the issue of bad consensus trumping Clear Concise Witty. and doesn't expand the "audience"(as in more people see it, but they are still from the same group) of crowners either.

EDIT: ninja

edited 4th Mar '14 10:40:03 AM by ShanghaiSlave

Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?