The Scrappy Cleanup

Can we go back to discussing the Fire Emblem stuff and finally deleting stuff like the Validar entry?

Looking through the Fire Emblem Scrappy page, I get the feeling that almost none of them were written after considering the Japanese fanbase. I get that most of us are presumably more familiar with the Western fanbase, but considering that Fire Emblem is a Japanese franchise, it's important to consider what the Japanese think about each character. We need to make sure that Americans Hate Tingle is not in effect.

I get that it might be hard to find information on which characters the majority of Japanese fans actually hate, but I'm of the "If there isn't concrete evidence, don't list the character at all." Accuracy is more important than an individual's need to vent about a character they don't like.

I'm still for getting rid of practically every entry, but it's probably better to go through them one by one so we're sure that each character is getting some discussion.

On that note, I know that Iago was discussed in this thread, but someone brought up the claim that Iago is actually fairly popular in Japan. I haven't been able to investigate this claim yet, but if it's true, then Iago needs to be taken out, because that's Americans Hate Tingle.

I agree with looking into the AHT factor. Namely, if they aren't hated in all parts of the world(they don't have to be super equally hated, just disliked at least in one, and hated in others, as long as they aren't liked), it'll work well.

I mean, the point is that they are the most hated character, unintentionally, after all.

I think if a character is not hated by a vast majority of their home country's fanbase, they can't be The Scrappy due to Americans Hate Tingle coming into effect. It's also important to remember that "meh" =/= hate.

I'd still classify Iago as a Hate Sink and nothing more. He's supposed to be awful.

From what I understand the issue with Iago is that having someone so transparently evil on one side harms the intended moral ambiguity of the narrative.

I personally don't think Iago harms the story at all, since he's fulfilling the role of slimy douchebag that practically every Fire Emblem game has, Then again, I didn't think Valter or Lang did much to hurt the ideas that the countries they came from were just as much victims due to their monarchs being influenced by outside forces, so it could be just me.

Regardless, if Iago really is popular in Japan, then he cannot be The Scrappy at all, since it becomes a case of Americans Hate Tingle. And the discussion over Severa made it clear that The Scrappy and Americans Hate Tingle are mutually exclusive.

I've noticed that Hojo Teppei is simultaneously a Hate Sink and this trope. I have to wonder; how is that even possible? The Scrappy is about someone being hated when it's not the author's intention, while Hate Sink is when the author's intention is for that character to be hated. It's not like what seperates the latter from the former is "being completely unentertaining", since "entertaining in evil" is Love to Hate instead of the other two

That's not quite right. While The Scrappy is certainly unintended hatred for the character, it's not the same kind of hatred as a Hate Sink is supposed to inspire. The tropes aren't mutually exclusive. However, if someone does fall under both, the entry for The Scrappy needs to be explicit about why the character falls there as well as under Hate Sink.

The basic difference is whether the character is hated for the actions against the protagonists (being a jerk, villain, etc.), or for the character's mere existance in the story. A good Hate Sink makes the story better by her presence, by giving the audience a good motivation to root against her and, more importantly, for the heroes, while The Scrappy would be better written out of the story, potentially replaced by something else.

Rosalina was included in the Super Mario Bros portion.

Isn't Rosalina reasonably popular? And I get the impression she's been brought up before.

I'm not part of the Mario fandom, but I've never seen anything to indicate Rosalina is particularly disliked.

Here's Rosalina's entry.

• Rosalina has gradually become this due to her being treated as a newer, more important Daisy to Peach, suddenly appearing in nearly everything after years of only being in Mario Galaxy and Mario Kart, and having her more unique traits ignored in favor of her essentially being a heavier Peach.

Personally, I don't think she counts as she's still very popular among the fanbase. The entry reads more like fans are upset about how she's been treated badly in recent games, not that she's hated or anything.

Yeah, to Rosalina being a Scrappy, especially since that entry reads more like a complaint than actually showing Rosalina is disliked by the majority of the fanbase.

Noticed that the same troper has added her multiple times, she's been removed every time, and she's been brought up here before. Mentioned it on ATT.

So... Dusan from Watch__Dogs 2. Quite a few people actually found him fairly likable, from what I can tell. The Scrappy entry for him says people hated him because he was "non-threatening", which I don't care for, seeing as the point of the character is that he's a Non-Action Big Bad. Thoughts?

Oh, and Lenni's listed as a Base-Breaking Character and a Scrappy at the same time. I think the latter, because she is extremely irritating to deal with, has an annoying voice and appearance, and you'll hear it a lot since she runs That One Level.

I wasn't sure where the right place to ask about this was, but this is Scrappy-related, so I'll put it here. So apparently Scrappy index's thread in the Trope Repair Shop was closed because it was taking too long to reach a consensus or something; We already had a crowner going, I guess I'm just really, really, really disappointed that that entire discussion was for nothing. What's going to happen now? Why didn't they at least put up a clock like the last time the thread was lagging a bit? There were some legitimate issues brought up there, are we just supposed to ignore them because we ran out of time?

The thread was closed because there was no consensus at all, despite all the time given to it. With both the crowner and the clock failing to garner enough interest or a consensus, it's evident the thread wasn't going anywhere.

I'm not familar with the fandom itself because I've never delved into fanwork for it, but listing Doctor Sweets from Bones seems suspect.

The Highlander entry also seems like baseless complaining that can be cut outright. You could argue a vocal minority dislikes Richie but I've never heard complaints about Tessa or Anne. The "bratty teenage girl" was also a throwaway character that only appeared in one episode.

edited 3rd Mar '17 7:19:46 PM by shoboni

The entry for Sweets argues against itself. It needs either a rewrite or deletion. If what it says is true, it should be deleted.

First off, Tessa and Richie are written in the same example, which makes it awkward, as well as on the first bullet despite there being multiple examples.

Tessa's sentence doesn't really have much context, and only says she's a shallowly written character.

Richie's text argues more against itself than not.

Michelle's entry asks us to guess what the entry should write down.

Anne's entry is just an assertion that almost everyone hate her.

RE:Highlander

Tessa - despite being only on the show for one season, is rather loved by much of the fandom - or at least she was around the time the show aired based on the nature of the reception the actress would receive at conventions. I suppose it is possible that people have changed their minds in the years since then.

Richie - If one looks only at season 1, yeah he can be a bit annoying at times. But, as the example says he undergoes substantial character development to become VERY popular.

Anne - While I personally didn't care for her (didn't really dislike either), outside that entry I have never seen anything that would rise to the level of Scrappydom.

And Michelle as a one-shot throwaway really shouldn't be listed.

Yeah.

She was a one off character that was intended to be a spoiled/rebellious teenager archtype to be tricked by the immortal villain of the week that preyed freshly awakened immortal girls by playing their "bad boy".

Duncan leaves her in Amanda's care after he rescues her and nothing else is ever heard of her.

I honestly think the whole Highlander entry can be nuked because it seems to be complaining with no fandom consensus or reasoning backing it up.

edited 4th Mar '17 5:39:18 PM by shoboni

No one seems to object so I'll nuke it now if it hasn't been done already. Re-post of the entry for posterity:

• Highlander: Throughout almost all of Season One, Richie and Tessa were seen as intrusive and clashing with the style of the series. Richie was introduced trying to rob Duncan while wearing parachute pants and a jacket with shoulder pads, serving almost no purpose besides as an unashamed sidekick. Tessa was likewise an unashamed Designated Love Interest who had no real character traits of value besides being Duncan's girlfriend. Richie slowly but surely is Rescued from the Scrappy Heap after becoming immortal in the same incident where Tessa is Killed Off for Real, as Duncan trains him in swordplay and two have an on-again, off-again rivalry as Richie struggles with accepting The Game and his place within it. There is a reason why Richie's death is considered a heavy Jump the Shark moment for the series.
  • The same cannot be said about Michelle from Rite of Passage. The typical whiny, spoiled teenage girl gets immortality. You can picture what happens next.
  • Anne Lindsey, Duncan's season 3 love interest. Fans almost universally HATE her.

edited 6th Mar '17 9:55:23 PM by shoboni

Really is a pity that the thread about the Scrappy Index had no results. Nice Guy was added there.

edited 7th Mar '17 2:25:47 PM by MagBas