TLP Crash Rescue - Fixing prematurely launched TLPs and pages

That sounds like a good idea. I'll bring it up in the mod discussion.

While we're talking about it, how wedded are we to the "bombs/hats" system? I've said it before, but I feel like it encourages weaker drafts by making "Hats" fairly non-committal and "bombs" scary (you have to hit "Discard" which sounds much more permanent, and, well, "Bomb" sounds like you want the draft trashed, not saying "this has a hat it shouldn't.").

Maybe a little trash can for 'get rid of it' and an 'under construction' sign for needs more work?

"and 'under construction sign' for needs more work."

That's part of the culture problem right there; hats are supposed to be more like graduation caps, 'nothing more needs to be done', yet they're often used for 'I like your idea'.

^ I think we've talked about this before, but a big reason why hats are increasingly being used in this manner is because the tagging system was retired. 'Needs A Better Name', 'Already Have?' and such were useful forms of providing automated input beyond just the current binary "ready to launch" or "please delete this".

edited 30th Nov '16 2:55:02 AM by Morgenthaler

The thing is, Bombs aren't even a "discard this" but are explicitly "This TLP has a hat it doesn't deserve."

So the options are "This is ready to launch" and "This isn't ready to launch." But the latter looks like you're saying "this is garbage" so it doesn't get used, and the former looks like it could just be "this is a good idea."

I just really think that the new system needs a discard, with TLP itself a bomb. The old YKTTW was better and also way more aesthetically easy (not just prettier, the layout aided comprehension, the new design makes you work)

Also: Ambiguously Asexual has been launched. Firstly, we need another "Ambiguously X" trope like we need a bullet to the brain.

Secondly it's pretty much a straight-up fan reaction. Lord Gro made an excellent post in the TLP that, while the creator responded, really didn't address his issues. And the description is vague enough that literally every example of Chaste Hero also applies.

But even so vague, the examples are a mess. There's a married father of two in there. There are explicitly asexual characters in there. There's a character literally described as "boy crazy" in there. Tons of entries are solely discussing an audience reaction.

On a philosophical level, it bothers me because it treats the lack of evidence for a person's sexuality as evidence of asexuality.

I've given up on fixing Ambiguously Bi and Ambiguously Gay, but we can at least nip this one in the bud. There's a trope here, but it's buried beneath garbage.

edited 30th Nov '16 12:57:37 PM by Larkmarn

I'm not 100 percent sure I agree with lakingsif, but I do feel like we didn't use to have as many of these non-tropes getting through.

In theory, "the creator leaves it ambiguous whether X actually applies" is a legit trope.

In practice, keeping Fanon off the example section is a nightmare.

@ Larkmark: I do think we need a discard option (regardless of whether it's a "motion to discard" tag or a bomb symbol), since some proposals really do need to be simply axed, either because the trope already exists by another name, the proposal is just plain untropable, or a plethora of other reasons that don't amount to "this just needs more work".

^^^ All the "Ambiguously X" tropes are massive shoehorn and misuse magnets. For the love of god, axe this one or at least let them try to actually make something useful out of this in YKTTW. It's fan speculation disguised as a trope.

edited 30th Nov '16 1:57:39 PM by Morgenthaler

Burn Ambiguously Asexual to ashes.

And we're kicking around ideas in mod chat about how to slow down the flood of non-tropes and bad tropes. I think bringing back the specific problem tags is important.

Maybe a three criteria rating system, where people have to vote on each criteria to say it's ready to launch?

• Concept: Proposal is a tool that can be recognized easily and doesn't overlap with existing concepts.
• Description: Clearly explains purpose, use and effect of proposed trope.
• Examples: Organized and wicked to the correct work pages.

I just think more tags is what we need. Including positive ones (like "Good concept" "Strong Description" etc. so that people don't think that a Hat is the only way to express approval).

For that matter, changing hats to something stronger might be good. I dunno, it's a launchpad, so a rocket? Thus signifying that it's ready for launch?

I like the idea of a rocket for "ready to launch" and an under construction sign for "needs more work."

As a defense of Ambiguously Asexual, I hope we can all agree that there is something there — the work leans to an argument for a character being asexual but isn't explicit. Of course, keeping it all relevant is the big problem. Still, with modern works, this and related tropes are likely going to become bigger than Ambiguously Gay. Writers will more happily use obviously gay characters but will still give a tentative representation to other sexualities.

@Lord Gro made what I think is a good argument against that point; that Ambiguously Bi and Ambiguously Gay can be determined by traits the character has. Asexuality is defined by the absence of something — sexual desire and sexual attraction; so anytime that it isn't mentioned, the character could be called Ambiguously Asexual whether there's any reason to really thin k the character is ace. The example list could therefore contain every character who doesn't have a love interest in the course of the work or every character who isn't explicitly identified as having a sexual preference of one sort or another.

edited 30th Nov '16 5:54:17 PM by Madrugada

Surely if there is a complete lack of love interests and no implication/evidence of anything else, one could argue the character could be ambiguously anything — gay and bi included. Ambiguously Asexual definitely wants to be improved, probably shouldn't have been launched yet, likely with quite a bit of re-write and example tweaking.

But, as I pointed out, there is a chance of misunderstanding when the word Ambiguous is included, but this extends to the other tropes, too ^note probably in a worse way, because sticking no-implication examples on those is greater misuse. Those cases of "well they're never shown with any sexuality, so they might be gay" being shoehorned onto pages. Also, probably a more likely chance of trope abuse with the Ambiguously Gay and Ambiguously Bi tropes, with people adding their fan fantasies of sexuality — less people will probably be trying to make a character they like asexual, so it's unfair to hold one of the tropes to a different standard to the rest of a collection.

There are ways to see behaviour, when an author is trying to imply asexuality, so good examples should be apparent.

Also, thinking about Ambiguously Bi and Ambiguously Gay, they might need checking for the kind of misuse non-examples that could have been added.

edited 1st Dec '16 2:23:03 AM by lakingsif

Well, that's partially why launching this was such a bad idea - Ambiguously Gay and Bi are messes already and will probably need to be in a perpetual state of being cleaned up, because the definition makes it very easy for people to add non-examples.

While we're having this discussion, here are some other work page stubs I came across:

• Super Force
• Soft Desire
• Thelus—lots of tropes, mostly just ZCEs.

Yes, there is a trope there... but it's going to be so buried in misuse and overapplication that I just don't think it's worth the effort to have the trope. If I could delete Ambiguously Gay and Ambiguously Bi (tropes that people see as "character has Ho Yay and doesn't/does have a hetero love interest, respectively") I would even support that even though there's definite tropes there. The only reason we're talking about cutting this single one is because we're in a unique position to nip this in the bud before it because a pervasive mess like those two.

I briefly considered the idea of making it example-less, but that would see a lot of bad wicks.

I say either cut it, or make it YMMV at best.

edited 1st Dec '16 7:29:40 AM by Larkmarn

Saffron And Sage was created three days ago, and currently contains no trope examples and is un-indexed. I sent a message to the troper who created the page, but haven't got a response back.

Three days after you sent the PM, add it to the cutlist.

Comment out the ZC Es, send a ZCE and Crosswicking message to the creators, and if they don't fix them, add to the cutlist. With a Roleplay in particular I don't think we need to be lenient. Super Force seems like it has potential, though.

edited 1st Dec '16 10:59:17 AM by Larkmarn

Actually it' been three days since the page was created, but two days since I sent the troper a message.

Cool. I say give him another day and see what happens.

Alternatively, you may want to wait until he makes another edit to make sure the PM is seen. I must admit it would be sad if it gets cut and he didn't even know.

edited 1st Dec '16 11:01:04 AM by Larkmarn